Of course you can enjoy things. Buddhism is not about self-flagellation.
I can guarantee you that teachers like these two as an example, enjoys very much.
Judging things is an expression of self-grasping, of ego clinging.Ardha wrote: ↑Mon Oct 18, 2021 4:57 am But that's getting away from the main point in that what you're suggesting is going against what Buddhism says because to see beauty is to judge things and reality is empty of judgments, so you can't enjoy the little things or anything else because those are all judgments.
Ahh... if only you were a meditator. You would see how our minds influence our experience of things.Ardha wrote: ↑Wed Oct 13, 2021 3:50 amBut these aren't stories though, they're the truth. They are the present moment. They are the debt, the depression, the unhappiness, the aches of my job. This isn't a story, it's what's happening right now.From an ordinary perspective, sure, we can say this is the cause of your suffering. But Buddhism actually goes deeper than the ordinary perspective... It's in meditation that we begin to see that all of our stories about our situation is what disturbs the mind. "Stories" are just our own interpretation of things happening. Our minds unconsciously create stories about things, and then we believe the stories are true... But they are just thoughts. Because they are just thoughts, in meditation we're able to observe our minds coming up with these stories and get carried away by them. When we get lost in our stories, we're carried away from the present. When we become more skilled at meditation, we can let go of the stories themselves... and find peace in the present moment.
Letting go of our stories doesn't change the fact that you're in debt. It doesn't change the fact that you have a difficult job. Or that you are on the spectrum. What it changes is how we respond to our circumstances. It changes how we interpret our circumstances, and even how we feel about our circumstances. With practice, we can actually learn to find happiness and peace, despite the circumstances we're in. Sometimes it's easy to do so, sometimes less so...
I don't think letting go changes how we interpret our circumstances because they are still there regardless.
But they aren't thoughts about the present moment, they are the present moment. They are the present experience. The bad job being on your feet for over 6 hours and not having time for anything else or not having friends. None of those are stories, they are present reality. Even the depression, that is always present. It doesn't go away. There isn't peace in the present, what I described is my direct experience. It's everyday when I wake up and go to bed.Usually when we talk about the present moment in buddhism and meditation, we're talking about what it's like to be in your own experience. (eg. what is it like to just breathe... what is it like to just sit in a chair... or to feel the wind on your face...) This is what we call direct experience of the present moment.
All thoughts about the present moment, we observe and let them pass. Thoughts about the present moment do not define the present experience. They are just thoughts, passing through our minds... Any judgements are also just thoughts. We just let them pass, like all thoughts.
I do practice it but unfortunately it doesn't really cut through anything or help me get anywhere. Rather it's encouraging me to do what I already do, which is nothing. IT's stagnation.Do you practice sitting meditation? The reason for asking (besides the fact that this is a Buddhist forum) is that sometimes, when we have tried doing everything, and that didn’t work, the remedy is to do nothing. And sitting meditation is probably as close to doing nothing as you can get.
Sitting meditation has no goals or expectations. Yet, because it brings the mind back to its original state, and because self-grasping and ego-clinging try to resist that, a dynamic occurs which results in opportunities to cut through a lot of the stuff that seems to keep one from getting anywhere.
You mentioned not caring. That isn’t an entirely bad thing. But don’t confuse apathy with not having preferences, or not taking sides. If it doesn’t matter to you whether it’s sunny or raining outside, then the weather is always good. I recently had major surgery. There was a fair chance that I would go into the operating room alive and come out dead. But, being at peace with oneself is very important. Either way, rain or shine, I was okay with whatever was going to happen.
Not taking sides doesn’t mean you don’t care at all. It means that you can take things without projecting your own expectations on things. And maybe the reason why events don’t bring you satisfaction is because you are expecting temporary things to be permanent. If you expect a bouquet of flowers to last forever, then of course you will be disappointed and left with an empty vase when they wilt. And you will also miss out on the moment of their color and fragrance.
That's pretty much the definition of apathy, you're just splitting hairs.But don’t confuse apathy with not having preferences, or not taking sides.
because there's always something else in the mind (like simply 'feeling like' doing something) ready to take its place and keep the person afloat. Relatively speaking, the exception to all that is depression, where everything is stuck where it is, much of it out of use and hidden from view. Like everything else, this always changes, however slow that might feel, and as with everything else, things can look more extreme than they actually are - If you tried your best not to care about anything, do you think you'd literally become catatonic in some way? Sorry if all this sounds patronising, but this is all about depression, of all things.
, you're doing much as I'd be doing if I said the same thing to an astronomer pointing out the difference between exoplanets and asteroids. {I have no idea what this is or if there even is one, and cos I'm just trying to illustrate a point I'm not about to Wiki it either}
That's not really the case, but it isn't true that you can make yourself happy. Otherwise depression wouldn't be so prevalent in today's society. We don't make ourselves happy, that's externals that trigger something that bring us joy. If I just made myself happy then that would cheapen the feeling just like anything that is on demand gets take for granted. It's not real if I can just turn it on and off, that's like psychopaths that can turn charm on and off.PadmaVonSamba wrote: ↑Sun Oct 31, 2021 2:29 pm just because you made yourself feel happy, why is that happiness not “real”?
Anyway, it looks as though you’ve decided what you are going to do. It seems odd to me, because the position you are defending isn’t bringing you any satisfaction. It just seems to give you a reason for self-pity. That’s actually a very strong type of ego-clinging, of self-grasping, which of course the Buddha teaches is the source of unhappiness.
I wish you luck. I’ve know people who have been consumed by that for years.
I cured my depression through meditation when I was a teenager. I was depressed for 2 or 3 years, and zen got me out of it. There are quite a few people with similar stories, once you start looking in the right places. But I will tell you, it's not merely putting on a smiling face. You don't just "make yourself happy." That's fake.Ardha wrote: ↑Wed Nov 03, 2021 4:38 amThat's not really the case, but it isn't true that you can make yourself happy. Otherwise depression wouldn't be so prevalent in today's society. We don't make ourselves happy, that's externals that trigger something that bring us joy. If I just made myself happy then that would cheapen the feeling just like anything that is on demand gets take for granted. It's not real if I can just turn it on and off, that's like psychopaths that can turn charm on and off.PadmaVonSamba wrote: ↑Sun Oct 31, 2021 2:29 pm just because you made yourself feel happy, why is that happiness not “real”?
Anyway, it looks as though you’ve decided what you are going to do. It seems odd to me, because the position you are defending isn’t bringing you any satisfaction. It just seems to give you a reason for self-pity. That’s actually a very strong type of ego-clinging, of self-grasping, which of course the Buddha teaches is the source of unhappiness.
I wish you luck. I’ve know people who have been consumed by that for years.
All I can say is that this sounds like a classic case of meditation being hijacked by the ego. It's a common pitfall for meditators. Usually an experienced teacher would be able to guide you through that.
Actually they say that's normal because wanting to do anything is ego. Ego wants to do something so if meditation is causing you to do more of "nothing" then you're good.All I can say is that this sounds like a classic case of meditation being hijacked by the ego. It's a common pitfall for meditators. Usually an experienced teacher would be able to guide you through that.
This has not been my experience even with proper technique. It doesn't lift what weighs me down, it just distracts from it. Like coming up for air before being dragged down again. It's been months and it's only made it worse not better.Meditation is something very different than that. You practice the meditation technique properly, and after a while you will start to notice some change in yourself. After months or years, the negative garbage that clouds our minds will start to get less and less. All that is weighing you down will eventually be lifted.
I’m sorry that in your experience you can’t seem to be happy just “being”.Ardha wrote: ↑Wed Nov 03, 2021 4:38 am but it isn't true that you can make yourself happy. Otherwise depression wouldn't be so prevalent in today's society. We don't make ourselves happy, that's externals that trigger something that bring us joy. If I just made myself happy then that would cheapen the feeling just like anything that is on demand gets take for granted. It's not real if I can just turn it on and off, that's like psychopaths that can turn charm on and off.
This is what I'm saying. You're not doing it right. There are problems with your practice, which is why you don't get the proper results.Ardha wrote: ↑Wed Nov 03, 2021 5:57 amThis has not been my experience even with proper technique. It doesn't lift what weighs me down, it just distracts from it. Like coming up for air before being dragged down again. It's been months and it's only made it worse not better.Meditation is something very different than that. You practice the meditation technique properly, and after a while you will start to notice some change in yourself. After months or years, the negative garbage that clouds our minds will start to get less and less. All that is weighing you down will eventually be lifted.
I think it would be good to get rid of this idea about "wanting is doing" and "doing is ego." It's not serving you.Ardha wrote: ↑Wed Nov 03, 2021 5:57 amActually they say that's normal because wanting to do anything is ego. Ego wants to do something so if meditation is causing you to do more of "nothing" then you're good.All I can say is that this sounds like a classic case of meditation being hijacked by the ego. It's a common pitfall for meditators. Usually an experienced teacher would be able to guide you through that.
If someone expects meditation to transport them into a state of permanent bliss, then they don’t understand what meditation is. It doesn’t take you somewhere else. It focuses you on the present moment.
Depression changes the basic conditions of life, such that an unaccustomed 'looser' state (no mis-spelling!) can drag a person down before it really loosens, even given the presumed fact that it's all "just ego" and the blanket of gloom it's thrown over the moment. It's a bit like the hell realm - "Sticky" suffering preoccupies... Is this 'just being'?PadmaVonSamba wrote: ↑Wed Nov 03, 2021 6:32 amI’m sorry that in your experience you can’t seem to be happy just “being”.
It's only volitional (since that's what this statement implies) in the special case of my off-DW friend - He explained it all to me himself; who really knows about anyone else? It's true that ego pushes in before happiness, in as much as it can sometimes demand happiness on its own conditions alone (continued sense of an idealised self etc.) - even in preference to temporary comfort. But what is ego? It's not 'us' in the sense that we can directly decide and will everything it does, any more than we can any other aspect of mind. And depression merely exacerbates all this. I'd suggest you read up on mental health. I'm not being patronising, since really understanding depression etc. seems to be very much a 'generational' thing, and anyway, I've a feeling I might have been "shadow-banned" - meaning my posts would be invisible to any readers (including me) not using my two usual IP addresses... I'll check at my local Library and consider editing if it turns out I'm wrong
But ego often only allows happiness if part of its current preferred range of externals are present - whatever that range may be. I explained my take on the fact that there's no absolute link between happiness and externals (meaning that the source of happiness is indeed in the mind and that externals contain no "happy-making" qualities) in the third through seventh paragraphs of my two-page post (sorry ).PadmaVonSamba wrote: ↑Wed Nov 03, 2021 6:32 amif that’s not the case, you are bored with that DVD or whatever, then it means happiness didn’t come from externals
It's more a reminder, and evidence, that beings are not always in a position to stop being unhappy right now, because in samsara, frameworks of existence are impermanent even as much as the dharma may be the final authority. Likewise the last two paragraphs of SlienceMonkey's last post may apply somewhat, but they're never the whole of this kind of story.
Not necessarily in depression recovery, but it's best not to try and force it. The rest of that post made sense.
Feeling like doing nothing is depression - and (with a twist) anxiety. From what I understand, 'wanting to do anything' doesn't change until "doing" becomes a kind of constant reflex expression of compassion, which only happens at or towards the end of the path. There might be something of an exception for monastics (for which path you'd need to supply something like to cost of a [modest] property), but 'not wanting to do' isn't forced, and monastic life has been be seen a kind of minimal 'doing' that keeps the ego minimally occupied.
Dogen said that practice is one continuous mistake. Otherwise, presumably almost everyone would become enlightened in their present lifetimes.
Meditation takes time to work for a lot of people, as others have kind of said. But what has made what worse? - Do you mean the meditation has made your life more painful, that your life has made your meditation more difficult, or what? Do thoughts and feelings about debt etc. persist through the mediation?
I am familiar with the problems of clinical depression, having friends who suffer from it. Some sought treatment and others didn’t.undefineable wrote: ↑Wed Nov 03, 2021 4:32 pm I'd suggest you read up on mental health. I'm not being patronising, since really understanding depression etc. seems to be very much a 'generational' thing
It’s true.undefineable wrote: ↑Wed Nov 03, 2021 5:43 pm YMMV, and my apologies for the general petulance towards the end of that quoted {and no-longer-edit-able} paragraph. I had an issue with my account a few weeks ago...
Perhaps a balanced conclusion is that depression can usually be treated somehow, but that it also creates something of a self-contained reality beforehand.