Not sure where to go

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Norwegian
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Re: Not sure where to go

Post by Norwegian »

Ardha wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 4:57 am so you can't enjoy the little things or anything else because those are all judgments.
Of course you can enjoy things. Buddhism is not about self-flagellation.

Image
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I can guarantee you that teachers like these two as an example, enjoys very much.
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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: Not sure where to go

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

Ardha wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 4:57 am But that's getting away from the main point in that what you're suggesting is going against what Buddhism says because to see beauty is to judge things and reality is empty of judgments, so you can't enjoy the little things or anything else because those are all judgments.
Judging things is an expression of self-grasping, of ego clinging.
The behavior your are describing, of total dissatisfaction, is also self-grasping, ego clinging. Any type of wallowing is just that.

Again, Buddhism doesn’t tell you not to enjoy things. However, one thing that is stressed in many Buddhist traditions is practicing gratefulness and humility. So far, I haven’t seen that in anything you have presented. It may be there, but I haven’t noticed it.

There was a time when I too could never finish anything, and everything seemed to be a pointless distraction. In my case, the remedy was to stop drinking alcohol. Of course, I have no way of knowing whether or not that is a factor in your situation. But you might want to look at behavioral changes.

Do you practice sitting meditation? The reason for asking (besides the fact that this is a Buddhist forum) is that sometimes, when we have tried doing everything, and that didn’t work, the remedy is to do nothing. And sitting meditation is probably as close to doing nothing as you can get.
Sitting meditation has no goals or expectations. Yet, because it brings the mind back to its original state, and because self-grasping and ego-clinging try to resist that, a dynamic occurs which results in opportunities to cut through a lot of the stuff that seems to keep one from getting anywhere.

You mentioned not caring. That isn’t an entirely bad thing. But don’t confuse apathy with not having preferences, or not taking sides. If it doesn’t matter to you whether it’s sunny or raining outside, then the weather is always good. I recently had major surgery. There was a fair chance that I would go into the operating room alive and come out dead. But, being at peace with oneself is very important. Either way, rain or shine, I was okay with whatever was going to happen.

Not taking sides doesn’t mean you don’t care at all. It means that you can take things without projecting your own expectations on things. And maybe the reason why events don’t bring you satisfaction is because you are expecting temporary things to be permanent. If you expect a bouquet of flowers to last forever, then of course you will be disappointed and left with an empty vase when they wilt. And you will also miss out on the moment of their color and fragrance.

Everything except your awareness (Original Mind) is temporary. You have to learn to live with that. Once you accept that fact and get used to it, then you will know that even your negative situation is temporary. Your very life is temporary. Even if you found things that lasted forever and brought you happiness and satisfaction your whole life, your attachment to those things would bring you pain, rather than pleasure when you are dying. So, it isn’t “things” that bring satisfaction. Happiness comes from within you.

By the way, I will again argue that the leaf (any externals) are not where happiness and satisfaction come from. The leaf is just a leaf. If you don’t notice it, it has no effect on you. And if you have to rake leaves, then you might hate it when they turn red. That’s why Buddhism says to work with your own mind, your own thoughts.

There is a famous saying by Shantideva: the earth is full of sharp rocks that hurt your feet. And while you cannot cover the whole planet with leather, if you cover the bottoms your feet (leather sandals) the effect is the same as if you covered the earth. Likewise, you can’t change externals. You can’t make leaves change color. All you can work with, the only thing that you really have to work with is your own mind. Otherwise, you are just passing the blame for your unhappiness onto everything else.
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SilenceMonkey
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Re: Not sure where to go

Post by SilenceMonkey »

Ardha wrote: Wed Oct 13, 2021 3:50 am
From an ordinary perspective, sure, we can say this is the cause of your suffering. But Buddhism actually goes deeper than the ordinary perspective... It's in meditation that we begin to see that all of our stories about our situation is what disturbs the mind. "Stories" are just our own interpretation of things happening. Our minds unconsciously create stories about things, and then we believe the stories are true... But they are just thoughts. Because they are just thoughts, in meditation we're able to observe our minds coming up with these stories and get carried away by them. When we get lost in our stories, we're carried away from the present. When we become more skilled at meditation, we can let go of the stories themselves... and find peace in the present moment.

Letting go of our stories doesn't change the fact that you're in debt. It doesn't change the fact that you have a difficult job. Or that you are on the spectrum. What it changes is how we respond to our circumstances. It changes how we interpret our circumstances, and even how we feel about our circumstances. With practice, we can actually learn to find happiness and peace, despite the circumstances we're in. Sometimes it's easy to do so, sometimes less so...
But these aren't stories though, they're the truth. They are the present moment. They are the debt, the depression, the unhappiness, the aches of my job. This isn't a story, it's what's happening right now.

I don't think letting go changes how we interpret our circumstances because they are still there regardless.
Usually when we talk about the present moment in buddhism and meditation, we're talking about what it's like to be in your own experience. (eg. what is it like to just breathe... what is it like to just sit in a chair... or to feel the wind on your face...) This is what we call direct experience of the present moment.

All thoughts about the present moment, we observe and let them pass. Thoughts about the present moment do not define the present experience. They are just thoughts, passing through our minds... Any judgements are also just thoughts. We just let them pass, like all thoughts.
But they aren't thoughts about the present moment, they are the present moment. They are the present experience. The bad job being on your feet for over 6 hours and not having time for anything else or not having friends. None of those are stories, they are present reality. Even the depression, that is always present. It doesn't go away. There isn't peace in the present, what I described is my direct experience. It's everyday when I wake up and go to bed.
Ahh... if only you were a meditator. You would see how our minds influence our experience of things.

The mind creates all kinds of thoughts and feelings about our situations. These are the stories we're talking about. The difference between you and a meditator is that you believe the stories represent reality; a meditator would merely see them as passing thoughts...

What would life be like without the mind taking over our experience like this?
MagnetSoulSP
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Re: Not sure where to go

Post by MagnetSoulSP »

Do you practice sitting meditation? The reason for asking (besides the fact that this is a Buddhist forum) is that sometimes, when we have tried doing everything, and that didn’t work, the remedy is to do nothing. And sitting meditation is probably as close to doing nothing as you can get.
Sitting meditation has no goals or expectations. Yet, because it brings the mind back to its original state, and because self-grasping and ego-clinging try to resist that, a dynamic occurs which results in opportunities to cut through a lot of the stuff that seems to keep one from getting anywhere.

You mentioned not caring. That isn’t an entirely bad thing. But don’t confuse apathy with not having preferences, or not taking sides. If it doesn’t matter to you whether it’s sunny or raining outside, then the weather is always good. I recently had major surgery. There was a fair chance that I would go into the operating room alive and come out dead. But, being at peace with oneself is very important. Either way, rain or shine, I was okay with whatever was going to happen.

Not taking sides doesn’t mean you don’t care at all. It means that you can take things without projecting your own expectations on things. And maybe the reason why events don’t bring you satisfaction is because you are expecting temporary things to be permanent. If you expect a bouquet of flowers to last forever, then of course you will be disappointed and left with an empty vase when they wilt. And you will also miss out on the moment of their color and fragrance.
I do practice it but unfortunately it doesn't really cut through anything or help me get anywhere. Rather it's encouraging me to do what I already do, which is nothing. IT's stagnation.

I'm not expecting temporary things to be permanent, I never said I did. But knowing that it's just you making it happens means I no longer take joy in anything anymore, because it wasn't exactly real since I just made myself feel that way. It also means nothing can make me happy, which makes you wrong about enjoying the little things if according to you those things don't bring you joy it was just you making it up.

But I don't think happiness comes from inside you, ever. For me it came from the outside, inside there was nothing. Meditation kinda showed me that. Inside there wasn't really anything at all, nothing I wanted to do or that I truly enjoyed, which explained the hollow feeling for most of my life and why I never could build anything because there wasn't anything I was attached to. You sort of need to have some degree of attachment to care about things enough to want to do them. Otherwise you're not much different from a rock. Not caring is a bad thing, it's gotten me where I am today.

And while a bad situation might not last, depending on the circumstance it can lead to a string of others. A string that, while it each might not last, all contribute to the overall climate of negative or bad. Like if you don't have a good degree, you won't get a job that pays a livable wage, which means hunger and shelter issues, which leads to higher stress and health issues especially if you can't afford insurance, you also can't afford the big expenses that come up like car repairs (also home and maybe health emergencies). It all adds up, and for a great many in the US that's their life. They can't afford to call in sick or see a doctor if they are. Some even beg for death, which would end the bad situation (though I'm not sure that's what you had in mind).

So while things might not be permanent in some sense, in others they are.

Also if it doesn't matter if it's sunny or rainy then the weather isn't always good, it's just meh. That's what it means to not care. It's not everything is good but rather everything is gray because nothing matters.

I can't afford to not care but I don't have anything inside to really serve as a guide. I never did. Everything I wanted I quickly abandoned for something else. I couldn't connect with people because I never cared enough about something to the extent that they did. In this world not caring isn't a virtue or something to strive for, it's essentially the same as death. Even animals know that.
But don’t confuse apathy with not having preferences, or not taking sides.
That's pretty much the definition of apathy, you're just splitting hairs.
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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: Not sure where to go

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

just because you made yourself feel happy, why is that happiness not “real”?

Anyway, it looks as though you’ve decided what you are going to do. It seems odd to me, because the position you are defending isn’t bringing you any satisfaction. It just seems to give you a reason for self-pity. That’s actually a very strong type of ego-clinging, of self-grasping, which of course the Buddha teaches is the source of unhappiness.
I wish you luck. I’ve know people who have been consumed by that for years.
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Re: Not sure where to go

Post by undefineable »

The trouble with Buddhism is that once its teachings and methods 'click' with you (which might not be for several years never mind anything less), things that wouldn't have made sense before your discovery somehow make sense, and things that made sense beforehand come to seem questionable. Apparently this happens again and again and again on the path - 'Big breakthroughs' are incidental to gradual shifts in perspective like this.

It's the same with depression. Depression is 'true unto itself', but with its peculiar dynamics, a lot of things that make perfect sense (at least when taken out of this context) no longer apply when that health improves. For example, different forms of a particular kind of activity like 'doing nothing' (so like video-gaming and meditating) might fall under a pall marked 'stagnation' when a person isn't happy or active, but if that changes, the different activities might start to feel more distinct and appear sharper despite the contrast with any high-intensity activities that might be starting up.

Something else that's safer [still] to say in relation to people across the board (if only as a rule of thumb) is that actions tend to come more from feelings and states of mind than from beliefs about the world, and going on broadly-accepted descriptions as much as anything else, depression tends to inspire either activities that distract [from feelings] or distraction [through feelings] from activity - despite all the hankering after 'far-off' happiness.

In other words, whereas in a 'stagnant' joyless state you're just left with just those "reasons to be cheerful" [etc.] which by definition leads you to [erroneously] see the identity of your elusive Joy (or similar) within things you happen to view positively, on the other hand in a more "fluid" and joyful state, joy is just joy - even though you know on a rational level that it'd have been less likely to have appeared if conditions had been less agreeable. This means it doesn't matter how you rationalise the joy - that it's somehow unreal because nature/karma-vipaka[/whatever] attuned you to experience it based on x rather than y, or whatever - It just happens, with no need of any supposed justification.

{If anything, dharma follows this thread through to its end, despite many people's first impressions of Buddhism.}

Besides all that, a person might see the kind of positive actions that had felt forced and unnatural (in the 'stagnant' state) showing up in the opposite position - i.e. it starts to feel unnatural to not perform them. Caring about the material or aim of the actions does help, but it isn't often needed, and you don't have to 'believe in' anything (in both senses of the term) within or about the situation just to have the motivation to feel or to act. So all these aspects of mind are free-floating in reality, or at least they can better be, and you can't isolate one of them and say, for example
Ardha wrote: Sun Oct 31, 2021 3:53 am not caring ... it's essentially the same as death.
because there's always something else in the mind (like simply 'feeling like' doing something) ready to take its place and keep the person afloat. Relatively speaking, the exception to all that is depression, where everything is stuck where it is, much of it out of use and hidden from view. Like everything else, this always changes, however slow that might feel, and as with everything else, things can look more extreme than they actually are - If you tried your best not to care about anything, do you think you'd literally become catatonic in some way? Sorry if all this sounds patronising, but this is all about depression, of all things.

I'm using words like "joy" and 'stagnant' to describe states of mind rather than lifestyles, but I'm not suggesting that happiness will simply come welling up from deep within yourself at some random point when you decide to will it (which would contradict the basic Buddhist doctrine of dependent co-arising in any case) - In my experience, the obsessive thought cycles eventually ease off enough for some of that "not sure what to think/feel right now" openness to creep back in and gently shake things up again.

A lot of the intellectual 'meat' on the soft-sciences/humanities/arts/*spirituality* side of the fence is, like all this, far less concrete than the nuts and bolts of the more-'everyday' uses of intellect. It's more like observing a picture, from different angles and in different lighting, than it is the picture itself. For example, here:
Ardha wrote: Sun Oct 31, 2021 3:53 am
But don’t confuse apathy with not having preferences, or not taking sides.
That's pretty much the definition of apathy, you're just splitting hairs.
, you're doing much as I'd be doing if I said the same thing to an astronomer pointing out the difference between exoplanets and asteroids. {I have no idea what this is or if there even is one, and cos I'm just trying to illustrate a point I'm not about to Wiki it either}

Also in one of the examples you gave of wanting temporary pleasures to be permanent, context is missing, in that it might be video-gaming rather than a particular video game that's more likely to rub suffering into the 'wound' of impermanence as far as you're concerned at least, meaning that if you do really suffer it'd be when your console breaks and you can't access another one... With something 'bigger' like falling in love on the other hand, the same thing would apply to each single loss, no?

You mentioned that you're "on the spectrum", and yes, if you're talking about autism (some readers might read what you wrote about not sticking with anything and think of ADHD since it's sometimes included in 'the spectrum'), this may mean that things naturally seem more definite/'cut-and-dried' to you than they do to most people ('facts' over there rather than "alive" right here if you like) regardless the effects of depression. But with its blunt, intellectual slant (I hope I'm being fair?!?), Dharmawheel tends to get a big proportion of openly autistic users, including mods as well as post-ers, with all kinds of perspectives including (and I'm thinking of some more-experienced 'practitioners') the more subtle and abstract. {Beneath other brain function difficulties, I'm one of said members, though I'd have to describe my own perspective as deranged...}

So you're going to dismiss everything I've said, despite how different it is from what the other post-ers have written? No definitive factual statements were involved in the making of this post even though some might appear to show up (sorry - bad/rushed writing..), but even taking that into account, it's natural to gently set aside what you think you can't have {Better to feel comfortable that you're not missing out, even if you're not just envious.} But then again, it's also natural to try and get different possibilities/avenues ruled out if you're desperately looking for something and still unsure if you're going to be able to find it. And maybe there are better and worse / more- and less- enlightening ways of getting to the point where you realise you won't find the answer.

Mahayana Buddhism, though, attracts 'fixers' by its very nature, and even if someone weren't burning to "make it all OK" for you, they'd likely be keen (more parochially) to try and redirect a situation that could be seen as 'bringing the dharma into disrepute', to say nothing of having their 'religious' beliefs dismissed and their words misunderstood, even though your original intention was very different. {Even I feel an [autistic?!] urge to help you out with whatever misunderstandings you might have.}

What you won't see much of here is the common belief that feelings are fixed and that external event A must always lead to internal response B in exact proportion, without nuance or variation. That's because dharma tends to move a person away from that scenario.

I see a lot of myself circa 1998/9 (when I suffered from depression and discovered Buddhism), as well as of a friend of mine, in your posts on this thread (sorry for the film cliche!) - Hopefully this has helped me to avoid triggering you as you say certain [non-]Buddhist writings have, but believe me, I know that having extremely negative internal responses to 'mere theory' is (somehow) a thing.

There's only one way, though, to find out the truth of any of this, and that (sorry to be trite!) is by observing your own mind. It's just that sometimes it's hard to do this because all you see is pain. That's why 'settling' is such an important metaphor in Buddhist practice. All the very best of luck to you.
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MagnetSoulSP
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Re: Not sure where to go

Post by MagnetSoulSP »

PadmaVonSamba wrote: Sun Oct 31, 2021 2:29 pm just because you made yourself feel happy, why is that happiness not “real”?

Anyway, it looks as though you’ve decided what you are going to do. It seems odd to me, because the position you are defending isn’t bringing you any satisfaction. It just seems to give you a reason for self-pity. That’s actually a very strong type of ego-clinging, of self-grasping, which of course the Buddha teaches is the source of unhappiness.
I wish you luck. I’ve know people who have been consumed by that for years.
That's not really the case, but it isn't true that you can make yourself happy. Otherwise depression wouldn't be so prevalent in today's society. We don't make ourselves happy, that's externals that trigger something that bring us joy. If I just made myself happy then that would cheapen the feeling just like anything that is on demand gets take for granted. It's not real if I can just turn it on and off, that's like psychopaths that can turn charm on and off.
SilenceMonkey
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Re: Not sure where to go

Post by SilenceMonkey »

Ardha wrote: Wed Nov 03, 2021 4:38 am
PadmaVonSamba wrote: Sun Oct 31, 2021 2:29 pm just because you made yourself feel happy, why is that happiness not “real”?

Anyway, it looks as though you’ve decided what you are going to do. It seems odd to me, because the position you are defending isn’t bringing you any satisfaction. It just seems to give you a reason for self-pity. That’s actually a very strong type of ego-clinging, of self-grasping, which of course the Buddha teaches is the source of unhappiness.
I wish you luck. I’ve know people who have been consumed by that for years.
That's not really the case, but it isn't true that you can make yourself happy. Otherwise depression wouldn't be so prevalent in today's society. We don't make ourselves happy, that's externals that trigger something that bring us joy. If I just made myself happy then that would cheapen the feeling just like anything that is on demand gets take for granted. It's not real if I can just turn it on and off, that's like psychopaths that can turn charm on and off.
I cured my depression through meditation when I was a teenager. I was depressed for 2 or 3 years, and zen got me out of it. There are quite a few people with similar stories, once you start looking in the right places. But I will tell you, it's not merely putting on a smiling face. You don't just "make yourself happy." That's fake.

Meditation is something very different than that. You practice the meditation technique properly, and after a while you will start to notice some change in yourself. After months or years, the negative garbage that clouds our minds will start to get less and less. All that is weighing you down will eventually be lifted.
Ardha wrote: Sun Oct 31, 2021 3:53 am I do practice it but unfortunately it doesn't really cut through anything or help me get anywhere. Rather it's encouraging me to do what I already do, which is nothing. IT's stagnation.
All I can say is that this sounds like a classic case of meditation being hijacked by the ego. It's a common pitfall for meditators. Usually an experienced teacher would be able to guide you through that.
SilenceMonkey
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Re: Not sure where to go

Post by SilenceMonkey »

Happiness isn't a switch... But mindfulness is.
MagnetSoulSP
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Re: Not sure where to go

Post by MagnetSoulSP »

All I can say is that this sounds like a classic case of meditation being hijacked by the ego. It's a common pitfall for meditators. Usually an experienced teacher would be able to guide you through that.
Actually they say that's normal because wanting to do anything is ego. Ego wants to do something so if meditation is causing you to do more of "nothing" then you're good.
Meditation is something very different than that. You practice the meditation technique properly, and after a while you will start to notice some change in yourself. After months or years, the negative garbage that clouds our minds will start to get less and less. All that is weighing you down will eventually be lifted.
This has not been my experience even with proper technique. It doesn't lift what weighs me down, it just distracts from it. Like coming up for air before being dragged down again. It's been months and it's only made it worse not better.
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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: Not sure where to go

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

Ardha wrote: Wed Nov 03, 2021 4:38 am but it isn't true that you can make yourself happy. Otherwise depression wouldn't be so prevalent in today's society. We don't make ourselves happy, that's externals that trigger something that bring us joy. If I just made myself happy then that would cheapen the feeling just like anything that is on demand gets take for granted. It's not real if I can just turn it on and off, that's like psychopaths that can turn charm on and off.
I’m sorry that in your experience you can’t seem to be happy just “being”.
For many Buddhist meditators, arriving at a quiet mind and just being, just sitting and watching the mind is enough. When the mind is naturally at peace, happiness is the result. The fact that the majority of people on this planet don’t practice Buddhist meditation, and many experience uncontrollable depression doesn’t mean that Buddhist meditation is to blame.

You don’t have to “make yourself be happy”. That’s not what is meant by saying that the source of happiness is within you.

And who is making you unhappy, if not yourself?
Where does the dissatisfaction come from, if not your own mind? Therefore, if the unhappiness comes from the mind, then that’s where happiness comes from as well.

If it were external things that cause you to be happy, and those external things are still there, or can be repeated, then you should still be able to find happiness from them. If you were happy getting a present, then whenever you think of that present, or hold that object or whatever, you would experience that exact same moment of happiness all over again. So, the simple solution would be to go back to all the things that ever made you happy, because if what you say is correct, that external things are what made you happy, then they still will.

On the other hand, if that’s not the case, you are bored with that DVD or whatever, then it means happiness didn’t come from externals, but from within your own mind after all.

But you are going to defend being unhappy,
aren’t you?
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SilenceMonkey
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Re: Not sure where to go

Post by SilenceMonkey »

Ardha wrote: Wed Nov 03, 2021 5:57 am
Meditation is something very different than that. You practice the meditation technique properly, and after a while you will start to notice some change in yourself. After months or years, the negative garbage that clouds our minds will start to get less and less. All that is weighing you down will eventually be lifted.
This has not been my experience even with proper technique. It doesn't lift what weighs me down, it just distracts from it. Like coming up for air before being dragged down again. It's been months and it's only made it worse not better.
This is what I'm saying. You're not doing it right. There are problems with your practice, which is why you don't get the proper results.

It's like baking bread. Put in too much flour (or not enough), then your bread won't be very tasty. When either the recipe is wrong or you don't understand how to cook, your food will be spoiled. It's the same with meditation and Dharma.
Ardha wrote: Wed Nov 03, 2021 5:57 am
All I can say is that this sounds like a classic case of meditation being hijacked by the ego. It's a common pitfall for meditators. Usually an experienced teacher would be able to guide you through that.
Actually they say that's normal because wanting to do anything is ego. Ego wants to do something so if meditation is causing you to do more of "nothing" then you're good.
I think it would be good to get rid of this idea about "wanting is doing" and "doing is ego." It's not serving you.

When "ego hijacks our practice," this usually means that our thinking about the practice will lead to justification of beliefs about the practice. In the end, we get stuck in a rut and the practice doesn't work as it is supposed to. (Maybe someone else can explain this better.)

For example, When we don't get the results I want, we might blame the practice. Or blame Buddhism. Saying all this is worthless, etc... The real issue isn't the meditation method, but 1) How we implement it, 2) How we interpret our experience. The first one is merely incorrect application of the method you're practicing; the second one is where ego will hijack meditation.


The over-arching problem here is that you've already made up your mind and you don't want to change. You'd rather stay miserable and toss all this Buddha stuff out the window because somehow you've concluded that it's worthless nonsense. That, my friend, is the workings of ego.

You seem not to want to get better and believe that there's nothing that can be done. I'm afraid this will continue to be a self-fulfilling prophecy.
Last edited by SilenceMonkey on Wed Nov 03, 2021 2:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: Not sure where to go

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

Ardha wrote: Wed Nov 03, 2021 5:57 amThis has not been my experience even with proper technique. It doesn't lift what weighs me down, it just distracts from it. Like coming up for air before being dragged down again. It's been months and it's only made it worse not better.
If someone expects meditation to transport them into a state of permanent bliss, then they don’t understand what meditation is. It doesn’t take you somewhere else. It focuses you on the present moment.

As long as you are chasing after results, that’s the problem, and that’s exactly what proper meditation cuts through. Meditation isn’t supposed to ‘lift what weighs you down’. Rather, it’s a break from the whole ‘lift/don’t lift’ struggle itself.

Don’t meditate with goals and expectations. Just sit and watch.

Of course, ego will react negatively to this, because ego is preoccupied with the experience. The point of sitting meditation is that you aren’t feeding that.
But from what you have shared, that hasn’t been the case. It sounds like you’ve put a lot of goals and expectations on it. But meditation is like turning off the car’s engine, not going somewhere else. So, of course, if you have expectations then Buddhist meditation isn’t going to take you there.

At the same time, as I have mentioned, turning off the engine, just sitting and watching in meditation, this brings the mind back to its original position which is before any grasping or expectations. It is this peace of mind which prevails and in time permeates every situation because you are right there, and not trying to be somewhere else.
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Re: Not sure where to go

Post by undefineable »

Post edit issues, sorry!
Last edited by undefineable on Wed Nov 03, 2021 4:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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undefineable
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Re: Not sure where to go

Post by undefineable »

Ditto...
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Re: Not sure where to go

Post by undefineable »

Post edited.
PadmaVonSamba wrote: Wed Nov 03, 2021 6:32 amI’m sorry that in your experience you can’t seem to be happy just “being”.
Depression changes the basic conditions of life, such that an unaccustomed 'looser' state (no mis-spelling!) can drag a person down before it really loosens, even given the presumed fact that it's all "just ego" and the blanket of gloom it's thrown over the moment. It's a bit like the hell realm - "Sticky" suffering preoccupies... Is this 'just being'?

PadmaVonSamba wrote: Wed Nov 03, 2021 6:32 amAnd who is making you unhappy, if not yourself?
It's only volitional (since that's what this statement implies) in the special case of my off-DW friend - He explained it all to me himself; who really knows about anyone else? It's true that ego pushes in before happiness, in as much as it can sometimes demand happiness on its own conditions alone (continued sense of an idealised self etc.) - even in preference to temporary comfort. But what is ego? It's not 'us' in the sense that we can directly decide and will everything it does, any more than we can any other aspect of mind. And depression merely exacerbates all this. I'd suggest you read up on mental health. I'm not being patronising, since really understanding depression etc. seems to be very much a 'generational' thing, and anyway, I've a feeling I might have been "shadow-banned" - meaning my posts would be invisible to any readers (including me) not using my two usual IP addresses... I'll check at my local Library and consider editing if it turns out I'm wrong :P

PadmaVonSamba wrote: Wed Nov 03, 2021 6:32 amif that’s not the case, you are bored with that DVD or whatever, then it means happiness didn’t come from externals
But ego often only allows happiness if part of its current preferred range of externals are present - whatever that range may be. I explained my take on the fact that there's no absolute link between happiness and externals (meaning that the source of happiness is indeed in the mind and that externals contain no "happy-making" qualities) in the third through seventh paragraphs of my two-page post (sorry :emb: ).

PadmaVonSamba wrote: Wed Nov 03, 2021 6:32 amBut you are going to defend being unhappy
It's more a reminder, and evidence, that beings are not always in a position to stop being unhappy right now, because in samsara, frameworks of existence are impermanent even as much as the dharma may be the final authority. Likewise the last two paragraphs of SlienceMonkey's last post may apply somewhat, but they're never the whole of this kind of story.
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Re: Not sure where to go

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Ardha wrote: Wed Nov 03, 2021 4:38 amthat's externals that trigger something that bring us joy.
Not necessarily in depression recovery, but it's best not to try and force it. The rest of that post made sense.

Ardha wrote: Wed Nov 03, 2021 5:57 amwanting to do anything is ego.
Feeling like doing nothing is depression - and (with a twist) anxiety. From what I understand, 'wanting to do anything' doesn't change until "doing" becomes a kind of constant reflex expression of compassion, which only happens at or towards the end of the path. There might be something of an exception for monastics (for which path you'd need to supply something like to cost of a [modest] property), but 'not wanting to do' isn't forced, and monastic life has been be seen a kind of minimal 'doing' that keeps the ego minimally occupied.

Ardha wrote: Wed Nov 03, 2021 5:57 amThis has not been my experience even with proper technique.
Dogen said that practice is one continuous mistake. Otherwise, presumably almost everyone would become enlightened in their present lifetimes.

Ardha wrote: Wed Nov 03, 2021 5:57 amIt's been months and it's only made it worse not better.
Meditation takes time to work for a lot of people, as others have kind of said. But what has made what worse? - Do you mean the meditation has made your life more painful, that your life has made your meditation more difficult, or what? Do thoughts and feelings about debt etc. persist through the mediation?

It can happen that excessive (4 hours a day plus) of meditation can make beginners feel uncomfortable, not by making them feel refreshed, but typically by bringing more insight than they feel ready to cope with. What I have seen (particularly in an 'offline' friend of mine recently - hence my longwindedness here?) is when the will to test and rule out different strategies for getting rid of mental suffering suffering takes on a life of its own after a certain point, and the person begins to force strategies to backfire purely out of the human drive to take control and make outcomes predictable. {There's also the desire to 'take back the power' from well-meaning others who might otherwise sway you...} I'm sorry if this offends you right now and you feel like I'm playing mind-games, but it might be for the better afterwards, you never know ;)
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Re: Not sure where to go

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undefineable wrote: Wed Nov 03, 2021 4:32 pm I'd suggest you read up on mental health. I'm not being patronising, since really understanding depression etc. seems to be very much a 'generational' thing
I am familiar with the problems of clinical depression, having friends who suffer from it. Some sought treatment and others didn’t.

Anyway, this thread has a lot of discussions in it. And while I might assume that the person I’m replying to has clinical depression, I don’t recall that being established here. I’ve mentioned to people before that a Buddhist web forum really isn’t the place to get psychological therapy, and I’ve tried to keep my comments primarily focused on addressing misconceptions about Buddhist teachings and practice.

If Ardha has clinical depression, that’s an entirely different matter. That’s a medical issue. You don’t turn to Buddhism with a toothache or kidney failure. I don’t think mental illness is different in that regard.

Otherwise, all I see is someone who has a lot of it wrong about Buddhism, and then can’t figure out why things don’t turn out right, and instead who just keeps coming up with one different reason after another for things failing. This is not uncommon here, actually.
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Re: Not sure where to go

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YMMV, and my apologies for the general petulance towards the end of that quoted {and no-longer-edit-able} paragraph. I had an issue with my account a few weeks ago...

Perhaps a balanced conclusion is that depression can usually be treated somehow, but that it also creates something of a self-contained reality beforehand.
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Re: Not sure where to go

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undefineable wrote: Wed Nov 03, 2021 5:43 pm YMMV, and my apologies for the general petulance towards the end of that quoted {and no-longer-edit-able} paragraph. I had an issue with my account a few weeks ago...

Perhaps a balanced conclusion is that depression can usually be treated somehow, but that it also creates something of a self-contained reality beforehand.
It’s true.
I recently had an unfortunate experience with an old family friend who we hadn’t seen in a few years, who lives with depression. Only it turned out that in that time things had really spiraled down to the point where even offering to help him
get things sorted out was regarded as threatening to him and caused him to get angry.

I think Buddhist meditation can help quiet the mind at least enough so that a suffering person can at least relate to others, get help, and even feel able to reach out when they need to.
But meditation isn’t medication.
Unfortunately the hard part is that the person has to want things to change, and that’s asking an awful lot sometimes, because frankly, it’s easier to just be miserable and in denial about it than it is to confront it. And meditation eventually brings you to confront everything.
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