The mind, the brain, and the body?

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WJ77
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The mind, the brain, and the body?

Post by WJ77 »

Hi, I’m curious about the topic of mind-body dualism, and different conceptualisations of the mind, the brain, and the body according to Buddhism as well as from the perspectives of psychology and neuroscience. I have many questions and much confusion. Please can anyone help clarify? For example: What are the similarities and differences between these perspectives (Buddhism, Western psychology, neuroscience)? According to Cartesian dualism, is the brain the same as the mind? Or the soul? But what was the pre-Descartes view of the mind vs. the body? I know that Tibetans often point to the heart as “the mind” while Westerners point to the brain. If I understand correctly, neuroscientists today see the mind as being the entire nervous system -- not only the brain. The Five Aggregates in Buddhism -- one is the body, and four are the mind. And what about the subconscious mind vs. the unconscious mind. I heard someone claim recently that they are the same thing, whereas I thought I had read something before from psychology stating that they are different.
Any concise explanation of any of the above would be incredibly interesting and helpful. Thank you! :thanks:
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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: The mind, the brain, and the body?

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

That’s a lot to go over.
You might get some good perspective here on the mind/body relationship according to Buddhist theory (because this forum is mainly a Buddhist hangout) and then you can compare that to the other views that you mention.

I indicated mind/body rather than mind/body/brain, as you did, because I think that from the Buddhist perspective, the brain is part of the physical body.
EMPTIFUL.
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PeterC
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Re: The mind, the brain, and the body?

Post by PeterC »

WJ77 wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 2:34 pm ...mind-body dualism, and different conceptualisations of the mind, the brain, and the body according to Buddhism as well as from the perspectives of psychology and neuroscience...

...concise explanation of any of the above...
:rolling: :rolling: :rolling:
WJ77
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Re: The mind, the brain, and the body?

Post by WJ77 »

Ok, maybe more of a challenge than I had given advanced credit for. :crazy:

But what I meant was, any comments (or pointers to further reading :reading: ) on any aspect of the above would be interesting (not necessarily an in-depth discussion of each and every aspect of my long list)

:rolling:
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Johnny Dangerous
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Re: The mind, the brain, and the body?

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

I mean, do you want philosophy books, neuroscience, Buddhism or what?

For the most part questions like this are non-falsifiable and eventually turn into philosophy, namely Philosophy of Mind.

It’s just a somewhat unfocused request, what are you actually wanting to study or look into?
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frankie
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Re: The mind, the brain, and the body?

Post by frankie »

WJ77 wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 2:34 pm Hi, I’m curious about the topic of mind-body dualism, and different conceptualisations of the mind, the brain, and the body according to Buddhism as well as from the perspectives of psychology and neuroscience. I have many questions and much confusion. Please can anyone help clarify? For example: What are the similarities and differences between these perspectives (Buddhism, Western psychology, neuroscience)? According to Cartesian dualism, is the brain the same as the mind? Or the soul? But what was the pre-Descartes view of the mind vs. the body? I know that Tibetans often point to the heart as “the mind” while Westerners point to the brain. If I understand correctly, neuroscientists today see the mind as being the entire nervous system -- not only the brain. The Five Aggregates in Buddhism -- one is the body, and four are the mind. And what about the subconscious mind vs. the unconscious mind. I heard someone claim recently that they are the same thing, whereas I thought I had read something before from psychology stating that they are different.
Any concise explanation of any of the above would be incredibly interesting and helpful. Thank you! :thanks:
You may find some juicy bits and pieces to progress your search here: https://www.mindandlife.org/ It's a pretty impressive and well recognised/accredited interface that's been going on for a good while between Tibetan Buddhism and many notables from western mind/body/scientific modalities and notables. A lot has been produced from their dialogues in book form, as well.
WJ77
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Re: The mind, the brain, and the body?

Post by WJ77 »

frankie wrote: Wed Jul 28, 2021 12:19 pm You may find some juicy bits and pieces to progress your search here: https://www.mindandlife.org/ It's a pretty impressive and well recognised/accredited interface that's been going on for a good while between Tibetan Buddhism and many notables from western mind/body/scientific modalities and notables. A lot has been produced from their dialogues in book form, as well.

Thank you Frankie. I was aware of that organisation and their work, but had never seen the website. Lots to explore there. Thanks.

Coincidentally, a friend also posted this on social media (published two days ago): https://tricycle.org/trikedaily/thukdam ... 7J7n5QyniA
WJ77
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Re: The mind, the brain, and the body?

Post by WJ77 »

PadmaVonSamba wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 4:32 pm That’s a lot to go over.
You might get some good perspective here on the mind/body relationship according to Buddhist theory (because this forum is mainly a Buddhist hangout) and then you can compare that to the other views that you mention.

I indicated mind/body rather than mind/body/brain, as you did, because I think that from the Buddhist perspective, the brain is part of the physical body.
Hi PadmaVonSamba, thanks for your comments and suggestions.

Yes, I emphasised mind, body, AND brain because it seems (please correct me if I’m wrong) that people (just the average person on the street, not Buddhist lamas, neurologists or psychologists) often seem to think of the mind and the body as two different things (e.g. when it comes to physical illness vs. mental illness) and yet tend to think of the mind residing in the brain (which is, of course, part of the body). Hence a kind of mind-body dualism which is incoherent on closer inspection? And also my point was to emphasise a distinction between the brain and the mind (often referred to synonymously and interchangeably in the West) because for Tibetans (therefore maybe in Buddhism more broadly??), the mind is associated with the heart, and is not synonymous with the brain. However, again, the average Tibetan on the street vs. high lamas vs. high lamas with an interest in neuroscience might all have differing ideas about that.
:juggling:
WJ77
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Re: The mind, the brain, and the body?

Post by WJ77 »

Johnny Dangerous wrote: Tue Jul 27, 2021 5:11 pm I mean, do you want philosophy books, neuroscience, Buddhism or what?

For the most part questions like this are non-falsifiable and eventually turn into philosophy, namely Philosophy of Mind.

It’s just a somewhat unfocused request, what are you actually wanting to study or look into?
Hi Johnny Dangerous, for a start, I would be interested in how people in this forum view "the mind" vs. "the body", and then extent to which Buddhism or other areas of academic study or professional work (maybe there's a psychology graduate or a psychologist on this forum?) informed or complicated their perspectives and prior assumptions.

And, yes, of course, theories of "the mind" are not falsifiable... I am interested in perspectives and theories, not expecting definitive answers to the secrets of the universe. Although I remain an optimist. :smile:
frankie
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Re: The mind, the brain, and the body?

Post by frankie »

WJ77 wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 2:13 pm
frankie wrote: Wed Jul 28, 2021 12:19 pm You may find some juicy bits and pieces to progress your search here: https://www.mindandlife.org/ It's a pretty impressive and well recognised/accredited interface that's been going on for a good while between Tibetan Buddhism and many notables from western mind/body/scientific modalities and notables. A lot has been produced from their dialogues in book form, as well.

Thank you Frankie. I was aware of that organisation and their work, but had never seen the website. Lots to explore there. Thanks.

Coincidentally, a friend also posted this on social media (published two days ago): https://tricycle.org/trikedaily/thukdam ... 7J7n5QyniA

Thanks for that link WJ.

In all candour, Tibetan Buddhism and I have been bothering each other for a long time now, and while in the 'enchantment with myth, magic and exotica' stage of my enquiries, there was never any shortage of reports for me to further waylay and fuel my fevered bonce with distraction away from the essentials. I'm pleased to see that the DL has recently been quite subtly encouraging us to come in for landing, across quite a range of woowoo and magical thinking. I guess it may help some people/'believers' to have faith. Never done a commercial takings analysis in places like Taiwan and Hong Kong, but I presume it's also good for 'business'.

Apologies if this is a tad cynical. Just that every time these old guys turn up dead-alive-meditating, I feel embarrased for the tradition and just wish they would stop it godammit!

I
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