A question about a Buddhistic story

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laserzt
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A question about a Buddhistic story

Post by laserzt »

The story goes like this:

A young monk strolled into the office of the head monk.

“Say, man. Would it like be okay if I smoke when I meditate?”

The head monk turned pale and began quivering. When he recovered, he gave the young man a stern lecture about the sanctity of meditation. The novice listened thoughtfully and went away.

A few weeks later, he returned with another question.

“I’m concerned about my spiritual development. I notice that I spend a lot of time smoking. I was wondering, do you think it would be okay if when I am smoking, I practice my meditation?”

The older man was overjoyed and of course said yes.

I really liked the story, and am taking it into effect in my life. My question is, what would the old man answer, if the young monk would have asked him if he could smoke and meditate and the same time?
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Aemilius
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Re: A question about a Buddhistic story

Post by Aemilius »

Guide To Buddhism A To Z

SMOKING

Smoking is the habit of inhaling the smoke of smouldering tobacco leaves either by means of cigarettes or pipes. Tobacco was unknown in ancient India but people did inhale smoke for medical and recreational purposes. According to the Sushruta Cikitsà, an ancient treatise on medicine inhaling smoke is good as a purgative, a cure for tiredness, depression, throat and nose problems and is also beneficial for pregnant women. Certain herbs were burned and the smoke sniffed in through a small metal tube (dhumanetti). The Buddha subscribed to this kind of smoke therapy and allowed monks and nuns to have smoking tubes (Vin.I,204), although some people apparently considered them to be a luxury (Ja.IV,363).

Cigarettes (dhumavaññi) smoked for enjoyment were made by grinding cardamom, saffron, sandalwood and aloe wood into a fine paste and moulding it over a reed so that it was about 15 centimetres long and with the thickness of a thumb. When the paste was dry, the reed was removed and the resulting cigarette was smeared with clarified butter or sandalwood oil before being ignited. These cigarettes were probably far less harmful than the modern ones. Another ancient medical work, the Caraka Samhità, recommends sitting in an upright but comfortable posture while smoking, taking three puffs at a time and inhaling through both the mouth and nostrils but exhaling only through nostrils.

While smoking has a negative effect on the body, it has little or no effect on consciousness and thus, from the Buddhist perspective, has no moral significance. A person can be kind, generous and honest and yet smoke. Thus, although smoking is inadvisable from the point of view of physical health it is not contrary to the fifth Precept.

Smoking is very common in all Buddhists lands although in 2005 Bhutan was the first country in the world to ban it. In Burma, Thailand and Cambodia monks commonly smoke, but in Sri Lanka it is considered unacceptable for them to do so, although it is often done in private. However, Sri Lankan monks are allowed to chew tobacco.

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svaha
"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 1. (in english and sanskrit)
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Aemilius
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Re: A question about a Buddhistic story

Post by Aemilius »

Dudjom Rinpoche’s Teaching on Smoking:

"In the gTérma of Chögyal Ratna Lingpa it is stated:

‘Padmasambhava bound the Nine Demonic Brothers under oath, but they were breakers of samaya, and the youngest of them found a way to undermine their commitment to protect beings. He told his kindred: “Brothers, do not despair, listen to me. I shall manifest myself in the country of China as tobacco; the name of this toxin will be ‘the black poison’. It will grow in the border lands, from whence it will spread to Tibet. The people of Tibet will consume this enjoyable substance. By the strength of this, the five neurotic poisons will increase. Rejecting the ten positive actions, people will practise the ten negative ones. The lives of the lineage holders will become precarious, and they will depart for the Buddha Fields. The smoke of this poison, penetrating the earth, will annihilate hundreds of thousands of cities of the kLu. Rain will not fall, harvest and livestock will not thrive, there will be civil unrest, plagues, and calamities. The poison’s smoke rising into the sky will destroy celestial dimensions; untimely eclipses and comets will appear. The essential fluids and veins of those who smoke will dehydrate. It causes the four hundred and four diseases to arise. Whoever smokes will be reborn in the lower realms. If one smokes and others inhale the odour, it will be as if one were ripping out the hearts of six million beings.’

According to the gTérma of Sang-gyé Lingpa: ‘In this decadent age people will indulge in unwholesome behaviour. In particular, rather than eating nourishing food, people will consume the substances which are poisonous and evil-smelling. Interrupting what they are doing, they will consume the poison. They will need to spit, their noses will run, their health and complexion will fade.’

The gTérma of Rig’dzin Go’dem predicts: ‘In the ultimate decadent age people will absorb poisonous vomit, food of dri za’i. Merely smelling it, one will go to the Mar-med Myal-wa. For this reason give it up right now.’

From the predictions discovered by Düd’dül Dorje: ‘Practitioners will enjoy inhaling the smoke of these plants and sniffing their powder and the country will be invaded by samaya-breakers. They will be deceived by illusion and experience the arising of obsessive characteristics. As a sign of the exhaustion of merit they will have causes for tears which will flow uncontrollably.’

The gTérmas of Longsel reveal: ‘The time when people smoke these vile substances is also the time when close friends will poison each other’s minds.’"

http://tibetanbuddhistencyclopedia.com/ ... on_Smoking
svaha
"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 1. (in english and sanskrit)
Inedible
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Re: A question about a Buddhistic story

Post by Inedible »

It only takes three cigarettes per day to cause changes in the lungs which help escort coronavirus into your cells. This alone has been enough reason for many people to quit.
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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: A question about a Buddhistic story

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

I think people missed the point of the opening story.
It’s all about how you look at things.
Here is a similar example:
In the neighborhood where I grew up, there was a small, privately owned movie theater, and they also sold beer at the popcorn stand. But according to the city ordinance, movie theaters were not legally allowed to sell beer.
How they got away with it was that although a movie theater was not allowed to sell beer, a bar was allowed to run a movie projector.
So, as a business, they weren’t registered as a movie theater at all. They were technically registered as a bar.

This is a good Buddhist lesson. It’s kind of like the Diamond Sutra. How we conceptualize things makes all the difference.
EMPTIFUL.
An inward outlook produces outward insight.
laserzt
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Re: A question about a Buddhistic story

Post by laserzt »

Yes indeed. I believe that the story isn't about smoking at all, and you could change the word smoking with any other activity and the story would stay exactly the same. The only importance is that it is not meditating.
So, my question is what would the answer of the old man be, if the young monk asked him if he could mediate and do some other activity at the same time? or do some other activity and meditate at the same time? instead of meditate while doing some other activity, or doing some other activity while meditating.
Hope I made myself clear this time :)
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Ayu
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Re: A question about a Buddhistic story

Post by Ayu »

laserzt wrote: Tue Jul 20, 2021 7:56 am Yes indeed. I believe that the story isn't about smoking at all, and you could change the word smoking with any other activity and the story would stay exactly the same. The only importance is that it is not meditating.
So, my question is what would the answer of the old man be, if the young monk asked him if he could mediate and do some other activity at the same time? or do some other activity and meditate at the same time? instead of meditate while doing some other activity, or doing some other activity while meditating.
Hope I made myself clear this time :)
There's not one answer that fits for all. It's an individual matter, I think, and it depends on the individual quality of the meditation. It depends on individual karma and skills, IMHO.
Possibly everything can be meditation or on the other hand one can sit for a long time and it is no meditation.

Therefore people learn these essential skills from a good teacher directly. Not from books or rules only.

AND I have to say: smoking is a really bad example, because it is damaging for others and for oneself.
Riding the bike or washing the dishes ("chopping wood, carrying water") would be a really better example.

What is the source of the story? I suspect, some non-buddhist people modified it.
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FiveSkandhas
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Re: A question about a Buddhistic story

Post by FiveSkandhas »

I once read of a Tibetan monk who was imprisoned by the Chinese communists for some time. As one of his torments, he was forced to smoke cigarettes. He said he kept his practice up by conceiving of the smoke as a kind of incense offering to some wrathful deities. Seems like an excellent example of upaya in action during extreme situations.
Last edited by FiveSkandhas on Tue Jul 20, 2021 9:41 am, edited 1 time in total.
"One should cultivate contemplation in one’s foibles. The foibles are like fish, and contemplation is like fishing hooks. If there are no fish, then the fishing hooks have no use. The bigger the fish is, the better the result we will get. As long as the fishing hooks keep at it, all foibles will eventually be contained and controlled at will." -Zhiyi

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Inedible
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Re: A question about a Buddhistic story

Post by Inedible »

It's a really old story. I've read it before. But there is nothing good about smoking and you'll need more than an old story to justify it.
laserzt
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Re: A question about a Buddhistic story

Post by laserzt »

I found one version of the story here:

http://storyista.com/story/can-i-meditate-while-smoking

I heard it from Osho, also from Ekhart Tolle, and I think on some other occasions from some Buddhist monks.
I do not know where the story originated from. Maybe someone who is an expert in Buddhism could say.
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Re: A question about a Buddhistic story

Post by Ayu »

laserzt wrote: Tue Jul 20, 2021 10:00 am I found one version of the story here:

http://storyista.com/story/can-i-meditate-while-smoking

I heard it from Osho, also from Ekhart Tolle, and I think on some other occasions from some Buddhist monks.
I do not know where the story originated from. Maybe someone who is an expert in Buddhism could say.
(That link keeps empty on my device.)

Well, Osho and Eckhart Tolle are not Buddhists. The story sounds to me exactly like that.
A real buddhist teacher wouldn't become pale, because a student asks a question. And the second overjoyed reaction of the teacher seems exaggerated as well.
It sounds as if a non-buddhist tells a funny story about a cute little buddhist teacher.

My personal summary is, this story is most probably falsified. If there is a real buddhist version, it would be nice to read that in comparison.
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Aemilius
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Re: A question about a Buddhistic story

Post by Aemilius »

I think the origin of the story could be a G. I. Gurdieff episode: One of his pupils manages to quit the habit of smoking and tells Gurdieff that he is now free from smoking. Gurdieff says that if he is free from smoking, he could perhaps smoke a cigarette (or cigar, I can't remember which one) and offers one to him. Jim Jarmusch has used this incident in his film Coffee and Cigarettes. The words and phrases in the film are so close to the story from Gurdieff that they can't be accidental. The actors in this particular episode are Iggy Pop and Tom Waits.
svaha
"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 1. (in english and sanskrit)
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Re: A question about a Buddhistic story

Post by Hazel »

laserzt wrote: Tue Jul 20, 2021 10:00 am I found one version of the story here:

http://storyista.com/story/can-i-meditate-while-smoking

I heard it from Osho, also from Ekhart Tolle, and I think on some other occasions from some Buddhist monks.
I do not know where the story originated from. Maybe someone who is an expert in Buddhism could say.
That opens with saying it's a Sufi parable. Sufism is not Buddhism.
Happy Pride month to my queer dharma siblings!

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Aemilius
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Re: A question about a Buddhistic story

Post by Aemilius »

Sufims is not Buddhism, but it was influenced by Buddhism (very likely). In several poems of Rumi you can find buddhist themes, for example:

HE GUEST HOUSE –
BY RUMI AND THE BUDDHA

Rumi, the 13th century Muslim poet from a Persian family, has deservedly won a place in our hearts for his sublime capacity to nourish the depth of our being with his perceptive insights into love, sensuality, spirituality and intimacy with the immediate world.

His poems strike a chord in the depths of our meditative being. Not surprisingly, insight meditation teachers delight to read Rumi’s poems to spiritual practitioners. One of his best loved poems is The Guest House. The Buddha used the same analogy around 1700 years earlier in two talks entitled The Guest House.
full article https://www.christophertitmussblog.org/ ... the-buddha


"Buddhism in Iran dates back to the 2nd century, when Parthians, such as An Shigao, were active in spreading Buddhism in China. Many of the earliest translators of Buddhist literature into Chinese were from Parthia and other kingdoms linked with present-day Iran.

Pre-Islamic Iran

Buddhists were persecuted during the Sasanid rule in the vast territory they ruled, as they made Zoroastrianism the state religion in 224 AD, and thereafter burned many Buddhist sites in the regions where it was practiced, namely Central Asia. Surviving Buddhist sites in the easternmost Sassanian territories comprising modern day Central Asia were later raided in the 5th century by the White Huns.

Arab conquests and decline

'In the centuries before the Arab conquests Buddhism was spread throughout the eastern Iranian world. Buddhist sites have been found in Afghanistan, Turkmenistan, Uzbekistan, and Tajikistan, as well as within Iran itself.' The Arab conquests brought the final demise of Buddhism in Eastern Iran and Afghanistan, although in some sites like Bamiyan and Hadda it survived until the 8th or 9th century.

Ilkhanate under Hulagu Khan converted to Buddhism, which remained the official religion of the empire till 1295. Later Mongol ruler Ghazan, who received Buddhist education in his youth, converted to Islam in 1295 AD and made it the state religion of the Ilkhanate. He also prohibited the practice of Buddhism, but allowed monks to go into exile into neighboring Buddhist regions."


Buddhist-Muslim Interaction: Umayyad Caliphate
Dr. Alexander Berzin
https://studybuddhism.com/en/advanced-s ... -caliphate
svaha
"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 1. (in english and sanskrit)
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