Richard Dawkins - The Enemies of Reason - Part 1: Slaves to Superstition

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Aemilius
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Richard Dawkins - The Enemies of Reason - Part 1: Slaves to Superstition

Post by Aemilius »

Guess how his video presentation begins?
The answer: Nam Myoho Renge Kyo!

svaha
"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 1. (in english and sanskrit)
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Minobu
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Re: Richard Dawkins - The Enemies of Reason - Part 1: Slaves to Superstition

Post by Minobu »

guess one can put up a post about the Daimoku in this light , but mention another and it gets deleted.
too funny.
narhwal90
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Re: Richard Dawkins - The Enemies of Reason - Part 1: Slaves to Superstition

Post by narhwal90 »

Link to someone elses opinion is not the same as posting it here.

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Minobu
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Re: Richard Dawkins - The Enemies of Reason - Part 1: Slaves to Superstition

Post by Minobu »

if you actually watch the video it was a valid question.

i asked what Dawkins would think of.....(omits certain beliefs dictated as gospel on DW, one of malcolms pet belief systems)

i recall dawkins when he first started out as an atheist.

His only schtick at the time was refuting the biblical stories ...he ignored the possibility of metaphor and went after them metaphors and made fun.

but He never actually discussed the possible nature of this God he denies.

Or different versions of a possible creationist theory..just made ridicule of biblical metaphors ...
I'm not saying the man is wrong...hell Malcolm calls sutras stories...and obviously Dawkins never actually discusses Buddhist theory...

meh...

i just wish one could post another angle of this forum than just the ridicule that amelius gets to use.
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FiveSkandhas
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Re: Richard Dawkins - The Enemies of Reason - Part 1: Slaves to Superstition

Post by FiveSkandhas »

Soooo weary of the old science versus religion trope. So, so very weary.

Look, the Dharma is eternal while science is a flexible, open-ended system that treats the physical nature of Samsara, which is always in flux. There is no contradiction; science and the Dharma pass each other in the night silently and without interaction, each on its own mission.

Science versus religion makes no more sense than "Art versus Athletics: which one is "right"?"
"One should cultivate contemplation in one’s foibles. The foibles are like fish, and contemplation is like fishing hooks. If there are no fish, then the fishing hooks have no use. The bigger the fish is, the better the result we will get. As long as the fishing hooks keep at it, all foibles will eventually be contained and controlled at will." -Zhiyi

"Just be kind." -Atisha
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Minobu
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Re: Richard Dawkins - The Enemies of Reason - Part 1: Slaves to Superstition

Post by Minobu »

FiveSkandhas wrote: Sun Jun 06, 2021 9:22 pm Soooo weary of the old science versus religion trope. So, so very weary.

Look, the Dharma is eternal while science is a flexible, open-ended system that treats the physical nature of Samsara, which is always in flux. There is no contradiction; science and the Dharma pass each other in the night silently and without interaction, each on its own mission.

Science versus religion makes no more sense than "Art versus Athletics: which one is "right"?"
sort of...yeah...

Dawkins makes a fortune on it though...it pisses me off when people use things to make fun...when so much is at stake...like truth.
Agnikan
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Re: Richard Dawkins - The Enemies of Reason - Part 1: Slaves to Superstition

Post by Agnikan »

FiveSkandhas wrote: Sun Jun 06, 2021 9:22 pm There is no contradiction; science and the Dharma pass each other in the night silently and without interaction, each on its own mission.
That's a bit simplistic, don't you think? Wouldn't the practice of Dharma, by a layperson, improve the practice of science?
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Nemo
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Re: Richard Dawkins - The Enemies of Reason - Part 1: Slaves to Superstition

Post by Nemo »

We have had some people be total suckers for exploitative sexual and financial manipulation. They lost years of their life. Buddhism has developed a cult problem. I think it might be a good time to go back to first principles and stop making excuses for Adharmic behavior masquerading as the Buddha's teachings. For many Buddhism is just superstition. Praying to an image for good luck like any other deity worshiper on earth. If that is good enough for you I suppose that is fine. Calling it Buddhism doesn't necessarily make it Buddhism.
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FiveSkandhas
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Re: Richard Dawkins - The Enemies of Reason - Part 1: Slaves to Superstition

Post by FiveSkandhas »

Agnikan wrote: Sun Jun 06, 2021 9:46 pm
FiveSkandhas wrote: Sun Jun 06, 2021 9:22 pm There is no contradiction; science and the Dharma pass each other in the night silently and without interaction, each on its own mission.
That's a bit simplistic, don't you think? Wouldn't the practice of Dharma, by a layperson, improve the practice of science?
I used to think bridges could be built between science and the Dharma but I realized they are simply different spheres of activity, concerned with different things.

And it's very important to remember the Dharma is changeless while science is always changing. There has been a fad for trying to tie Buddhism in with quantum theory but what happens when quantum theory becomes passe and the next scientific paradigm comes into vogue? The Dharma should not be tied to ships bound to sink. Since ancient Greece, science has constantly evolved and it would be folly to think it has reached its "final form" in our time.
"One should cultivate contemplation in one’s foibles. The foibles are like fish, and contemplation is like fishing hooks. If there are no fish, then the fishing hooks have no use. The bigger the fish is, the better the result we will get. As long as the fishing hooks keep at it, all foibles will eventually be contained and controlled at will." -Zhiyi

"Just be kind." -Atisha
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Re: Richard Dawkins - The Enemies of Reason - Part 1: Slaves to Superstition

Post by KristenM »

"As for myself, I believe that I have acted rightly in steadily following and devoting my life to Science. I feel no remorse from having committed any great sin, but have often often regretted that I have not done more direct good to my fellow creatures." - Charles Darwin, Autobiography 1879

I'd love to see a movie made out of Darwin's life, "The Beagle" or something like that.
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Minobu
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Re: Richard Dawkins - The Enemies of Reason - Part 1: Slaves to Superstition

Post by Minobu »

Well for me i think science and Buddhism are one and the same...

a lot of stuff Buddha talked about and adepts experienced is science of today.

i recall a book the Tao of Physics...it sort of gave me the idea that i just said...

i recall a very wise dude who i picked his brains...

like this actually happened when i was talking to him...i was like 22 he was German in his 40's..

so i see this blip of light flip out his eye and attach itself to his cuff link which a moment later he reached for and took off..

i went Whoooa what was that...he said oh you saw my thought...he said this happens for us to be more coordinated..

he said too bad you could not do that all the time and watch someone play the piano...

any way he said the dance of Shiva was just being able to see atoms and electron ans and that sort of thing...

so they knew about atoms and what they looked like before science proved them...now the whole solid molecule atom thing is passe' and they are coming to terms...some anyway...that the whole thing acts like thought. It's all mind.
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Re: Richard Dawkins - The Enemies of Reason - Part 1: Slaves to Superstition

Post by mikenz66 »

I don't like Dawkins dismissive attitude to many things, but after skimming through the programme, I don't see anything he's criticising that I'd want to defend. It's all just charlatans as far as I can see.

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Re: Richard Dawkins - The Enemies of Reason - Part 1: Slaves to Superstition

Post by Schrödinger’s Yidam »

My pet theory is that New Age stuff is a direct result of psychedelics mixing American naïveté. People had their assumptions about what was true and real upended. The psychedelic experience didn’t show them what was true or real, but it showed them that their pre-psychedelic awareness was not the only reality. Having their mind opened without any reliable guidance, they naively bought into a whole lot of nonsense.

Dawkins should trip. He’d still be a cynic, but he’d understand the pathology better.
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
PeterC
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Re: Richard Dawkins - The Enemies of Reason - Part 1: Slaves to Superstition

Post by PeterC »

Schrödinger’s Yidam wrote: Mon Jun 07, 2021 8:15 am My pet theory is that New Age stuff is a direct result of psychedelics mixing American naïveté. People had their assumptions about what was true and real upended. The psychedelic experience didn’t show them what was true or real, but it showed them that their pre-psychedelic awareness was not the only reality. Having their mind opened without any reliable guidance, they naively bought into a whole lot of nonsense.

Dawkins should trip. He’d still be a cynic, but he’d understand the pathology better.
There was plenty of new age BS in the UK that didn't rely on psychedelics - the Blavatsky / theosophy nonsense was, remarkably, not reliant on drugs.

I do rather like the "you hearing this shit?" face that Dawkins does in interviews. It's very carefully calibrated - the audience sees it, the interviewer not so much.
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Aemilius
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Re: Richard Dawkins - The Enemies of Reason - Part 1: Slaves to Superstition

Post by Aemilius »

FiveSkandhas wrote: Sun Jun 06, 2021 9:22 pm Soooo weary of the old science versus religion trope. So, so very weary.

Look, the Dharma is eternal while science is a flexible, open-ended system that treats the physical nature of Samsara, which is always in flux. There is no contradiction; science and the Dharma pass each other in the night silently and without interaction, each on its own mission.
That is not true at all, think about the societies in India, Europe and China 2500 or 2000 years ago; they had their systems for supporting philosophers, shramanas and brahmanas (and something equivalent in China); they did this because they wanted know the truth, truth or reality about the whole of existence, about life in general, they valued the seekers of truth,... This project is not radically different from the institutions of modern day societies; certain number of young people of today also get supported for doing nothing useful or productive, like meditation or philosophical inquiry, or studying science...
svaha
"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 1. (in english and sanskrit)
Giovanni
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Re: Richard Dawkins - The Enemies of Reason - Part 1: Slaves to Superstition

Post by Giovanni »

Dawkins contribution to knowledge is not his dismissal of all religions, and he is just as hard on Buddhism as he is on Christianity. What he is known for is status as a evolutionary scientist and theorist.
That part of his work will survive long after his shallow understandings of religion are forgotten
“The Selfish Gene” alone will guarantee his place in the history of science.
He also invented as a sideline the concept of “memes” the theory that concepts can behave like organisms and perpetuate themselves and multiply.
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Re: Richard Dawkins - The Enemies of Reason - Part 1: Slaves to Superstition

Post by PeterC »

FiveSkandhas wrote: Sun Jun 06, 2021 9:22 pm Look, the Dharma is eternal while science is a flexible, open-ended system that treats the physical nature of Samsara, which is always in flux.
We would all say that yes, the Dharma is eternal. But one could be forgiven for thinking that it doesn't really look that way. Every century or so a new practice system, novel ideas or theories, new schools and lineages appear, each claiming to be a clearer or more general presentation of the eternal Dharma. None ever argue that the Dharma *changes*. But teachings and theories appear at different times, and as Dharma practitioners' understanding incorporates them, the practice of the Dharma appears to change. Of course this can be explained by saying that those teachings always existed, sometimes in closely-held lineages, sometimes in other world systems or pure lands, and all that's happening is their revelation in our world. But that's an explanation from the inside, from the outside it looks like our understanding and practice of the Dharma does change quite a lot over time.
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Re: Richard Dawkins - The Enemies of Reason - Part 1: Slaves to Superstition

Post by Sādhaka »

Aemilius wrote: Sun Jun 06, 2021 11:02 am Guess how his video presentation begins?
The answer: Nam Myoho Renge Kyo!

Does this guy reject past & future lives, or no?
Last edited by Sādhaka on Mon Jun 07, 2021 6:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Danny
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Re: Richard Dawkins - The Enemies of Reason - Part 1: Slaves to Superstition

Post by Danny »

FiveSkandhas wrote: Sun Jun 06, 2021 9:22 pm

Look, the Dharma is eternal
Not from my understanding. There are large periods of time where dharma simply doesn’t exist. Even non existent in other world systems, solar systems and so forth.

You don’t miss the water until the well runs dry.
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Aemilius
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Re: Richard Dawkins - The Enemies of Reason - Part 1: Slaves to Superstition

Post by Aemilius »

Sādhaka wrote: Mon Jun 07, 2021 6:00 pm
Aemilius wrote: Sun Jun 06, 2021 11:02 am Guess how his video presentation begins?
The answer: Nam Myoho Renge Kyo!

Does this guy reject past & future lives, or no?
He does not speak about reincarnation in any of his books about evolution that I have read. He seems to think that the possible consciousness in animals, fungi, plants, insects, trees, bacteria and humans somehow arises in the course of evolution?, but I am not absolutely sure because he does not take up the subject. His books are very much worth reading, if you want to know about evolution in greater detail, but Dawkins does not seem to think that the consciousness of ants or other living things, including humans, transmigrates from one life to the next.
svaha
"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 1. (in english and sanskrit)
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