Dune

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Genjo Conan
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Re: Dune

Post by Genjo Conan »

Kim O'Hara wrote: Tue May 25, 2021 4:14 am
Genjo Conan wrote: Tue May 25, 2021 12:20 am In addition to some of the other recommendations ...
:thumbsup:
A good list but I have to comment on ...
... Fritz Lieber is most famous for the "Fahfrd and the Grey Mouser" books, but those are kinda bad. Don't read them! Instead, read his short novel "Gather, Darkness!", which is wonderful. ...
If you want escapism, the sword-and-sorcery sub-genre can be great fun, and Leiber's Lankhmar books are as good as any - better than most, actually, because they don't take themselves too seriously.
Meantime the Mouser was likewise astounded by the abrupt, entirely non sequitur appearance of Eesafem in the center of the penthouse.
It was as if one of his more lurid erotic dreams had suddenly come to solid life. He could only goggle as she took a smiling step toward him, knelt a little, carefully faced her front at him, and then drew her upper arms close to her sides so that the filigree band which supported her breast cups was compressed. Her almond eyes flashed sinister green.

What saved the Mouser then was simply his lifelong antipathy to having anything sharp pointed at him, be it only the tiniest needle--or the playfully menacing spikes on exquisite silver breast cups doubtless enclosing exquisite breasts. He hurled himself to one side just as with simultaneous zings small but powerful springs loosed the envenomed spikes as though they were crossbow quarrels and buried them with twin zaps in the wall against which he had but now been resting.

...

Thereafter, twining his legs about hers in such fashion that she could not knee him in the groin, and holding her snapping, spitting head in the crook of his left arm and by an ear--after futilely grasping for hair--and finally mastering with his right hand the wrists of her two sharp-nailed, flailing ones, he proceeded by gradual and not unnecessarily brutal steps to ravage her. As she ran out of spit, she quieted. Her breasts proved to be very small, but doubly delicious.

-The Sadness of the Executioner (1973), collected in Swords & Ice Magic
This is, in Lieber's Lankhmar stories, not the only time that Our Heroes rape their way out of a tough spot. Even by the standards of mid-century SF, the sexual politics in those stories are grotesque. I loved them as a kid; I can't do it anymore.
narhwal90
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Re: Dune

Post by narhwal90 »

reiun wrote: Tue May 25, 2021 12:27 am The Expanse is available several ways:



Alternatively, A Prime membership, currently $12.99/month, to view all five seasons would be cheaper.

https://www.amazon.com/amazonprime

Can't personally vouch for the literary version (90% five stars on amazon, 4.+ on Goodreads), but the Prime series was great (imdb 8.5/10).
The TV series pales in comparison- tortured and clumsy in comparison. Read them all, couldnt bear the series past the start of season 2.
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tkp67
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Re: Dune

Post by tkp67 »

Kim O'Hara wrote: Tue May 25, 2021 4:14 am
Genjo Conan wrote: Tue May 25, 2021 12:20 am In addition to some of the other recommendations ...
:thumbsup:
A good list but I have to comment on ...
... Fritz Lieber is most famous for the "Fahfrd and the Grey Mouser" books, but those are kinda bad. Don't read them! Instead, read his short novel "Gather, Darkness!", which is wonderful. ...
If you want escapism, the sword-and-sorcery sub-genre can be great fun, and Leiber's Lankhmar books are as good as any - better than most, actually, because they don't take themselves too seriously. Zelazny's Amber series is also great fun, and so is Heinlein's Glory Road which is not typical Heinlein at all.

Since I mentioned Zelazny - everyone here really, really, should read his Lord of Light for its reworking of Indian religious traditions. It's a good story, too.

:reading: :reading:
Kim
There are talks of bringing Zelazny's amber chronicles to a streaming service.

He is a great author who won more Hugo and Nebula awards than Heinlein although this changed when Heinlein was works were give 7 retro Hugo awards.
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Kim O'Hara
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Re: Dune

Post by Kim O'Hara »

Genjo Conan wrote: Tue May 25, 2021 5:12 pm ...
Meantime the Mouser was likewise astounded ...

Thereafter, twining his legs about hers in such fashion that she could not knee him in the groin, and holding her snapping, spitting head in the crook of his left arm and by an ear--after futilely grasping for hair--and finally mastering with his right hand the wrists of her two sharp-nailed, flailing ones, he proceeded by gradual and not unnecessarily brutal steps to ravage her. As she ran out of spit, she quieted. Her breasts proved to be very small, but doubly delicious.

-The Sadness of the Executioner (1973), collected in Swords & Ice Magic
This is, in Lieber's Lankhmar stories, not the only time that Our Heroes rape their way out of a tough spot. Even by the standards of mid-century SF, the sexual politics in those stories are grotesque. I loved them as a kid; I can't do it anymore.
Fair comment. It's a long time since I read most of the stories and I had forgotten this. One could argue that the sexual politics of the stories is true to the setting (Lankhmar) and that it wasn't too far out of line with the genre as it existed 50 years ago, but I accept that it's way out of line with what we can accept these days.
:thinking:
Which raises all sorts of questions about the genre and how we read it.
One thing which I've been thinking about (occasionally) for about six months is that the feudal settings so typical of fantasy these days really work against any possibility of the books having any relevance to us here and now. In particular, gender roles are very narrow, very strong and deeply conservative, such that they can't possibly reflect the changes we've been going through. We might say that's okay if all we want is escapism, but even our escapism shapes our worldview.

:reading:
Kim
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Queequeg
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Re: Dune

Post by Queequeg »

Played hooky from life today and saw it in IMAX.

It was great. I sincerely hope WB green lights the second half.

Story deviates from the book some. Chalamet did a good job as Paul. Jessica was very much less than Bene Geserit, but in a good way.

All in all, Villeneuve did a good job with the adaptation and the cinematography.

Being taken away for a couple hours was worth the admission.

EDIT - Apparently the second part has been greenlighted for an Oct 2023 release.
Last edited by Queequeg on Thu Oct 28, 2021 12:03 am, edited 1 time in total.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
Archie2009
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Re: Dune

Post by Archie2009 »

Not a fan of the book, but I loved Villeneuve's Dune.
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Caoimhghín
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Re: Dune

Post by Caoimhghín »

I actually love Lynch's Dune. Even David Lynch hates it. Peter Jackson also doesn't like his LOTR adaption. He has a special disdain for for Extended Edition. All the same, I love it. I wonder if the new one will be appropriately mythical in tone.
Last edited by Caoimhghín on Thu Oct 28, 2021 1:09 am, edited 1 time in total.
Then, the monks uttered this gāthā:

These bodies are like foam.
Them being frail, who can rejoice in them?
The Buddha attained the vajra-body.
Still, it becomes inconstant and ruined.
The many Buddhas are vajra-entities.
All are also subject to inconstancy.
Quickly ended, like melting snow --
how could things be different?

The Buddha passed into parinirvāṇa afterward.
(T1.27b10 Mahāparinirvāṇasūtra DĀ 2)
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Re: Dune

Post by windoverwater »

Margaret Atwood's trilogy: Oryx & Crake, The Year of the Flood, and MaddAddam is a literary masterpiece, as well as excellent science near-fiction.
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FiveSkandhas
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Re: Dune

Post by FiveSkandhas »

It has been said that there are two books that have a high probability of ensnaring the minds of 14 year old boys and changing their characters forever. One is Frank Herbert's Dune, the other is Ayn Rand's The Fountainhead.

If the hapless boy picks up the wrong book, he is doomed to life as a snivelling, skulking antisocial failure, trapped in a delusional universe of fantasy and fiction by obsessive interest until he is permanently emotionally stunted and unable to reach maturity or have normal adult relationships ever.

If he picks up the other book, he just gets a cool adventure story about giant desert sandworms.
"One should cultivate contemplation in one’s foibles. The foibles are like fish, and contemplation is like fishing hooks. If there are no fish, then the fishing hooks have no use. The bigger the fish is, the better the result we will get. As long as the fishing hooks keep at it, all foibles will eventually be contained and controlled at will." -Zhiyi

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Archie2009
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Re: Dune

Post by Archie2009 »

FiveSkandhas wrote: Thu Oct 28, 2021 1:07 amIf he picks up the other book, he just gets a cool adventure story about giant desert sandworms.
And in appropriately childish prose. Boy cannot be much of an aesthete.
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Kim O'Hara
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Re: Dune

Post by Kim O'Hara »

FiveSkandhas wrote: Thu Oct 28, 2021 1:07 am It has been said that there are two books that have a high probability of ensnaring the minds of 14 year old boys and changing their characters forever. One is Frank Herbert's Dune, the other is Ayn Rand's The Fountainhead.

If the hapless boy picks up the wrong book, he is doomed to life as a snivelling, skulking antisocial failure, trapped in a delusional universe of fantasy and fiction by obsessive interest until he is permanently emotionally stunted and unable to reach maturity or have normal adult relationships ever.

If he picks up the other book, he just gets a cool adventure story about giant desert sandworms.
:twothumbsup:

Thanks - you just made my day better.

:coffee:
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Queequeg
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Re: Dune

Post by Queequeg »

FiveSkandhas wrote: Thu Oct 28, 2021 1:07 am It has been said that there are two books that have a high probability of ensnaring the minds of 14 year old boys and changing their characters forever. One is Frank Herbert's Dune, the other is Ayn Rand's The Fountainhead.

If the hapless boy picks up the wrong book, he is doomed to life as a snivelling, skulking antisocial failure, trapped in a delusional universe of fantasy and fiction by obsessive interest until he is permanently emotionally stunted and unable to reach maturity or have normal adult relationships ever.

If he picks up the other book, he just gets a cool adventure story about giant desert sandworms.
One turns into Alan Greenspan, the other turns into Paul Krugman.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
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treehuggingoctopus
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Re: Dune

Post by treehuggingoctopus »

Malcolm wrote: Mon May 24, 2021 4:44 pmIf we actually confined ourselves to SF books of demonstrable literary merit, I think the recommendations would shrink really fast.
Apart from Le Guin (indeed uneven) and Atwood, China Mieville (anything, pretty much), Ian R. MacLeod (Light Ages, House of Storms, Wake up and Dream, Red Snow, Song of Time. Short stories are decent as well), Susanna Clarke (just two novels, both masterpieces, and a lovely short story collection).

Oh, Mervyn Peake, too, if one believes he is a genre writer.

Plus lots of names outside the Anglosphere.
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boda
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Re: Dune

Post by boda »

FiveSkandhas wrote: Thu Oct 28, 2021 1:07 am It has been said that there are two books that have a high probability of ensnaring the minds of 14 year old boys and changing their characters forever. One is Frank Herbert's Dune, the other is Ayn Rand's The Fountainhead.

If the hapless boy picks up the wrong book, he is doomed to life as a snivelling, skulking antisocial failure, trapped in a delusional universe of fantasy and fiction by obsessive interest until he is permanently emotionally stunted and unable to reach maturity or have normal adult relationships ever.

If he picks up the other book, he just gets a cool adventure story about giant desert sandworms.
:twothumbsup:

___________________________

As far as recommendations go, and as a dedicated sci-fi fan, I've recently very much enjoyed Project Hail Mary by Andy Weir.
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Kim O'Hara
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Re: Dune

Post by Kim O'Hara »

boda wrote: Thu Oct 28, 2021 9:43 pm
FiveSkandhas wrote: Thu Oct 28, 2021 1:07 am It has been said that there are two books that have a high probability of ensnaring the minds of 14 year old boys and changing their characters forever. One is Frank Herbert's Dune, the other is Ayn Rand's The Fountainhead.

If the hapless boy picks up the wrong book, he is doomed to life as a snivelling, skulking antisocial failure, trapped in a delusional universe of fantasy and fiction by obsessive interest until he is permanently emotionally stunted and unable to reach maturity or have normal adult relationships ever.

If he picks up the other book, he just gets a cool adventure story about giant desert sandworms.
:twothumbsup:

___________________________

As far as recommendations go, and as a dedicated sci-fi fan, I've recently very much enjoyed Project Hail Mary by Andy Weir.
So have I, but it's really lightweight.

Returning to Malcolm's point, then -
treehuggingoctopus wrote: Thu Oct 28, 2021 1:02 pm
Malcolm wrote: Mon May 24, 2021 4:44 pmIf we actually confined ourselves to SF books of demonstrable literary merit, I think the recommendations would shrink really fast.
Apart from Le Guin (indeed uneven) and Atwood, China Mieville (anything, pretty much), Ian R. MacLeod (Light Ages, House of Storms, Wake up and Dream, Red Snow, Song of Time. Short stories are decent as well), Susanna Clarke (just two novels, both masterpieces, and a lovely short story collection).

Oh, Mervyn Peake, too, if one believes he is a genre writer.

Plus lots of names outside the Anglosphere.
I like your list, treehuggingoctopus. If we're including fantasy with the SF, as we seem to be doing, I would add Peter Beagle, Alan Garner and Neil Gaiman. Perhaps Lian Hearn, too, but it depends on how much of the genre we want to mention - top 10% or top1%.
But the point I want to make is that there is a lot of very very good F & SF which is not defined as such but thought of as mainstream literary fiction. It seems that any writer who is good enough is claimed by the mainstream, leaving the second, third, fourth ... fifteenth rate writers on the genre shelf. (And then the mainstream establishment dismisses all genre fiction as trivial, poorly written rubbish - which most of it is, because of their grab. :toilet: )
Names:
Jeanette Winterson (top of my list because she is top of my list :smile: and I will read anything she writes)
Aldous Huxley, George Orwell
Anthony Burgess
Kazuo Ishiguro
Ballard and Russell Hoban (both uneven)
Cormac MacCarthy (I really don't like The Road but a lot of people do)
Borges, Calvino, Eco ...

:reading:
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Re: Dune

Post by Archie2009 »

Kim O'Hara wrote: Thu Oct 28, 2021 11:53 pmIt seems that any writer who is good enough is claimed by the mainstream, leaving the second, third, fourth ... fifteenth rate writers on the genre shelf. (And then the mainstream establishment dismisses all genre fiction as trivial, poorly written rubbish - which most of it is, because of their grab. :toilet: )

Kim
Iain Banks was proud to be on the genre shelf. I think his genre stuff (Culture universe) was even better than his mainstream works.
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Re: Dune

Post by boda »

Kim O'Hara wrote: Thu Oct 28, 2021 11:53 pm
boda wrote: Thu Oct 28, 2021 9:43 pm As far as recommendations go, and as a dedicated sci-fi fan, I've recently very much enjoyed Project Hail Mary by Andy Weir.
So have I, but it's really lightweight.
I don't have the expectation that sci-fi will be terribly deep, just interesting and entertaining. Project Hail Mary is good storytelling.

I also recently read Klara and the Sun, which I thought was good but not very insightful in regard to AI.
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Kim O'Hara
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Re: Dune

Post by Kim O'Hara »

Archie2009 wrote: Fri Oct 29, 2021 12:04 am
Kim O'Hara wrote: Thu Oct 28, 2021 11:53 pmIt seems that any writer who is good enough is claimed by the mainstream, leaving the second, third, fourth ... fifteenth rate writers on the genre shelf. (And then the mainstream establishment dismisses all genre fiction as trivial, poorly written rubbish - which most of it is, because of their grab. :toilet: )

Kim
Iain Banks was proud to be on the genre shelf. I think his genre stuff (Culture universe) was even better than his mainstream works.
Proud? I could find other reasons from an author to write under two names to separate his SF from his mainstream (real?) work as Banks did ("writing mainstream fiction as Iain Banks and science fiction as Iain M. Banks, adding the initial of his adopted middle name Menzies," as wikipedia says).
I found him a bit too consciously :quoteunquote: literary :quoteunquote: a few years ago but perhaps I should try him again.

:reading:
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treehuggingoctopus
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Re: Dune

Post by treehuggingoctopus »

Kim O'Hara wrote: Thu Oct 28, 2021 11:53 pmJeanette Winterson (top of my list because she is top of my list :smile: and I will read anything she writes)
Aldous Huxley, George Orwell
Anthony Burgess
Kazuo Ishiguro
Ballard and Russell Hoban (both uneven)
Cormac MacCarthy (I really don't like The Road but a lot of people do)
Borges, Calvino, Eco ...
Ah, I worship Cormac MacCarthy (and adore the Road), how could I have forgotten! Also, Angela Carter and Salman Rushdie (well, if Atwood, Borghes and Calvino are here, so should they). And maybe Thomas Pynchon and other hysterical realists (if Carter and Rushdie are here, then so should he. Although if Calvino and Borghes are here, we should add Kafka, too, which leads to Paul Auster and so many others...).

Agree about Ballard's unevenness. Never heard of Hoban :emb:

Also, Philip Pullman. His Dark Materials is a very nice read (if only I could forget that it has been put to screen and made into an almost equally horrible TV series). The new trilogy opened very well, but The Secret Commonwealth is nowhere near the opening. Staying on the young adult territory, Michael Ende.

And we should probably include, grudgingly perhaps, Tolkien and the rest of the reactionary English/Scottish weirdness of the late 19th/early 20th century (the 'epic pooh,' as Moorcock all too harshly put it). I was brought up on The Wind in the Willows (btw, was it a great TV series! Take that, Netflix and Amazon), still think it is lovely in its own way.
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Archie2009
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Re: Dune

Post by Archie2009 »

Kim O'Hara wrote: Fri Oct 29, 2021 4:06 am
Archie2009 wrote: Fri Oct 29, 2021 12:04 am
Kim O'Hara wrote: Thu Oct 28, 2021 11:53 pmIt seems that any writer who is good enough is claimed by the mainstream, leaving the second, third, fourth ... fifteenth rate writers on the genre shelf. (And then the mainstream establishment dismisses all genre fiction as trivial, poorly written rubbish - which most of it is, because of their grab. :toilet: )

Kim
Iain Banks was proud to be on the genre shelf. I think his genre stuff (Culture universe) was even better than his mainstream works.
Proud? I could find other reasons from an author to write under two names to separate his SF from his mainstream (real?) work as Banks did ("writing mainstream fiction as Iain Banks and science fiction as Iain M. Banks, adding the initial of his adopted middle name Menzies," as wikipedia says).
I found him a bit too consciously :quoteunquote: literary :quoteunquote: a few years ago but perhaps I should try him again.

:reading:
Kim
He was an sf writer first (and to the end). Started in the 1970s (early version of Use of Weapons, etc.) and finally got a break when he managed to get his first mainstream novel published in the 1980s to launch his career.
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