Was surprised by this

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avatamsaka3
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Was surprised by this

Post by avatamsaka3 »

I was surprised by how touching this was. It was a good surprise.

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Budai
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Re: Was surprised by this

Post by Budai »

I wish Justin nothing but good things! It looks like He still has a long way to go on His journey in life, but at least He has found a Spirituality that has allowed Him to balance His life. That is a difficult thing to do for many people. I wish the best for Him and His Wife, I honestly think He is a good person. I pray ahead that He comes to the Dharma of Gautama some day, I think all of it’s aspects can help Him in His life, and that it will be a nice supplement to what He has found in His connection to His personal Spiritual Journey. Avalokakitesvara, protect Him and His family, and when the causes and conditions are ripe, come and expound the Law to Him in the fractal Buddhist form, fully and wholly as your wish in the Ekayana’s Mahakaruna. Om Mani Padme Hum.

Nam Myoho Renge Kyo.
avatamsaka3
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Re: Was surprised by this

Post by avatamsaka3 »

People have a tendency to form stereotypes. It's good when there's reason to question those. And yes, wish him all the best.
PeterC
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Re: Was surprised by this

Post by PeterC »

With US evangelical churches, you’re never far away from grift, sex scandals or something similar. So just for amusement I googled “Justin bieber church scandal”, and miraculously thousands of articles like this appeared:

https://www.vanityfair.com/style/2021/0 ... ors-resign

American Chri$tianity really is the worst.
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Re: Was surprised by this

Post by Budai »

PeterC wrote: Wed Apr 28, 2021 1:14 am With US evangelical churches, you’re never far away from grift, sex scandals or something similar. So just for amusement I googled “Justin bieber church scandal”, and miraculously thousands of articles like this appeared:

https://www.vanityfair.com/style/2021/0 ... ors-resign

American Chri$tianity really is the worst.
People really need to work on their treatment of women, especially when they become Spiritual practitioners, and of course always with the same importance. This goes for all genders, but men tend to have this problem because of our current society more than women it seems, though it happens both ways too. I don’t see Justin as being a part of the scandal, He is distancing Himself from that former church. I hope whoever that is that had problems can rebuild their life and hopefully the scandal will make them rethink their mistakes. Scandals are a very important eye opener for a lot of people, and then they have to rethink their life. So is jail time. I hope Bieber doesn’t have any such problems, and I hope we can all respect that we must protect the people we care about in our practice, and I am glad you are linking this article and pointing it out PeterC. Christianity can be an authentic tradition, it has it’s roots in a faithful heart, many Buddhists revere Jesus, such as the Dalai Lama, so it’s important to provide a caring attitude towards those in that system of belief, there is hardship on every road in the Saha world, so it’s best that we help each other. Thank you.

Om Mani Padme Hum.
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Re: Was surprised by this

Post by avatamsaka3 »

Well, I'd say scandals are just a part of samsara, since people suffer from defilements. I'm not willing to demean an entire religion because some people act badly. Bad actors should be held accountable, but not an entire religion. If that were the case, some bad monks would pollute all dharma activity in the world. There are good people of all religions who have high standards and act out of compassion.

As far as Justin goes, even if he was in a bad place earlier, he's arrived at a better place. For me that's gratifying. That ability to turn lemons into lemonade is one of the great gifts of practice.
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Re: Was surprised by this

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Könchok Chödrak wrote: Wed Apr 28, 2021 1:49 am Christianity can be an authentic tradition, it has it’s roots in a faithful heart, many Buddhists revere Jesus, such as the Dalai Lama
I'm not sure what "authentic" means here. Christianity as practiced by most Americans today is, by the standards of its texts, completely inauthentic. Most Christians don't know that because they're woefully badly educated on their own beliefs - they can't even tell you what their articles of faith are. But as Buddhists - since we are on a Buddhist discussion board - we would regard it as wrong view from beginning to end even if it were faithful to its textual basis. I don't think HHDL "reveres" Jesus: I think he picks his words very carefully when he's speaking to interfaith conferences. He says different things when he's teaching the Dharma.
I'm not willing to demean an entire religion because some people act badly. Bad actors should be held accountable, but not an entire religion. If that were the case, some bad monks would pollute all dharma activity in the world.
We have centuries - millenia, even - of reasons to hold a negative view of Christianity's influence in the world. Of course we can always attribute these to individual bad actors, but there's so many of them that William of Occam would tell us that we're missing the obvious explanation here. And yes, bad monks do pollute the Dharma too.

Should we be happy for Justin Bieber that he feels happier about his life, as he plays basketball on his personal court in his private mansion in quarantine? Sure, of course, sentient beings feeling happy is a good thing from a limited relative perspective. But he hasn't found the ending of suffering and the causes of suffering. He is experiencing fleeting, insubstantial happiness that will definitely fade. If we think he's found some kind of lasting happiness in samsara, we ourselves have fallen into wrong view.
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Re: Was surprised by this

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I think that a lot of people find a great, or a module place in life, that may be necessary for them at the time, but they do not go a step further to develop the qualities of a Buddha. I want Justin Bieber to search after Enlightenment like I think all beings should develop Bodhicitta and search after Supreme Perfect Enlightenment. But if one simply uses a Spiritual Path such as Christianity or even Buddhism to come to a place of practical happiness or sense gratification, this can be a problem. Buddha warned us about this, in the Heavens of the Gods, there are many who enjoy delights for millions of lifetimes, but they make little progress towards the Dharma, because they fear walking through fire like the Bodhisattvas do in the lowest parts of the world, in order to save sentient beings. Some Christians may fear becoming like Christ because they may be crucified, and there are Buddhists who do not search after Buddhahood because after even understanding the Life Span of the Tathagata Chapter of the Lotus Sutra, they realize that He has been in this world for more than asamkhyas of kalpas, and they simply want a quick entrance into the Pure Land or some such thing, an easy answer. They fear their own possible good they can do to save others. So with regards to where Justin Bieber is in life right now, I see Him as a good person, but He needs to take the next step and enter into a commitment to leave Samsara for good, but also embark on a journey to become a Buddha that can save people out of it too. I personally believe this can be done through the Christian tradition, but Buddhism for many is a very needed supplement to any Spiritual tradition, and is beyond perfect as a stand-alone Path, for there are infinite Dharma Gates. Buddhism is alone to save someone from Samsara. You, I, and we know the Dharma is enough.

So I think if Justin fully encountered a serious Buddhist Practice, it would inspire Him to become exactly who He is meant to be. I do not believe He has reached the stage of no regression on all levels of His consciousness, but He has a true Love with His Wife, which will always be there to help Him, even if they are separated for many lifetimes. I hope He can become a Bodhisattva, but I am also happy He is doing better in life as is. People grow, people change, compound things are temporary, therefore we shouldn’t think that Justin becoming a Buddhist, as important as His Christianity is to Him, as it should be as long as He has some benefit from it, is a stretch of the imagination. So I hope He gains some Buddhaspeed. It is certainly a reality and a possibility. Maybe one day.

I wish Him and all of you all the best.

Nam Myoho Renge Kyo.

Avatamsaka, I know your reply is towards PeterC, under mine, but if you decide to you can discuss the issue as well.
Last edited by Budai on Wed Apr 28, 2021 4:03 am, edited 1 time in total.
avatamsaka3
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Re: Was surprised by this

Post by avatamsaka3 »

I would beg to differ on a lot of these points, but I doubt it would do much good to go into them. All the best to you.
PeterC
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Re: Was surprised by this

Post by PeterC »

avatamsaka3 wrote: Wed Apr 28, 2021 3:57 am I would beg to differ on a lot of these points, but I doubt it would do much good to go into them. All the best to you.
Curious to know which points? That christianity doesn't lead to liberation or lasting happiness is basic Buddhism. That American christians are only christian in the absolutely loosest possible sense, and that christianity generally has a horrible track record - Buddhism has no particular position on those, but the facts are reasonably clear.
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Re: Was surprised by this

Post by Budai »

PeterC wrote: Wed Apr 28, 2021 5:23 am
avatamsaka3 wrote: Wed Apr 28, 2021 3:57 am I would beg to differ on a lot of these points, but I doubt it would do much good to go into them. All the best to you.
Curious to know which points? That christianity doesn't lead to liberation or lasting happiness is basic Buddhism. That American christians are only christian in the absolutely loosest possible sense, and that christianity generally has a horrible track record - Buddhism has no particular position on those, but the facts are reasonably clear.
I have never seen a Realized Buddhist Teacher during any kind of Teaching say that Christianity can not lead to Realization. I respect your opinion on this fully, but if you can point me to such a subject I would be interested to read it. As far as I know people like Thich Nhat Hanh and the Dalai Lama respect Christianity as something that can liberate one from Samsara. Thich Nhat Hanh specifically speaks deeply on the matter, and has many lectures and has written books on the subject. I am not questioning your wisdom and incentive, but I think we should consider what a Buddha’s perspective on this subject would be. What is your true definition of the Dharma? And can you be honest in your words while abiding in your thoughts about it? There is the Upaya at play, but what about the literal truth that so many strive for?

All respects.

Om Mani Padme Hum.

Nam Myoho Renge Kyo.
Last edited by Budai on Wed Apr 28, 2021 5:32 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Johnny Dangerous
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Re: Was surprised by this

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

Könchok Chödrak wrote: Wed Apr 28, 2021 5:32 am
PeterC wrote: Wed Apr 28, 2021 5:23 am
avatamsaka3 wrote: Wed Apr 28, 2021 3:57 am I would beg to differ on a lot of these points, but I doubt it would do much good to go into them. All the best to you.
Curious to know which points? That christianity doesn't lead to liberation or lasting happiness is basic Buddhism. That American christians are only christian in the absolutely loosest possible sense, and that christianity generally has a horrible track record - Buddhism has no particular position on those, but the facts are reasonably clear.
I have never seen a Realized Buddhist Teacher during any kind of Teaching say that Christianity can not lead to Realization. I respect your opinion on this fully, but if you can point me to such a subject I would be interested to read it. As far as I know people like Thich Nhat Hanh and the Dalai Lama respect Christianity as something that can liberate one from Samsara. Thich Nhat Hanh specifically speaks deeply on the matter, and has many lectures and has written books on the subject. I am not questioning your wisdom and incentive, but I think we should consider what a Buddha’s perspective on this subject would be. What is your true definition of the Dharma? And can you be honest in your words while abiding in your thoughts about it? There is the Upaya at play, but what about the literal truth that so many strive for?

All respects.

Om Mani Padme Hum.

Nam Myoho Renge Kyo.
The Buddha himself said that this kind of path does not lead to realization, read the Dhammapada, for instance, if you want a simple place to start.

That doesn't mean it's the wrong path for everyone, it has it's place, but quite explicitly doesn't lead to realization in a Buddhist sense, that isn't even a goal of Christianity in the first place.

TNH, the Dalai Lama etc. are being skillful and ecumenical in the way they discuss other faiths. There is no need for them to publicly declare that Christianity does not lead to Buddhist realization, because anyone who has done a cursory study of Buddhism already understands this is so. That does not mean discouraging people from practicing their faiths, nor does it mean disrespecting them.
I think we should consider what a Buddha’s perspective on this subject would be.
Ok, just read the Dhammapada then, or any of the many places where The Buddha criticizes in particular religions in which people pray at shrines out of fear for instance - it's addressed directly. Similarly, there are lots of places where The Buddha says that only the Buddhist path leads to liberation from Samsara. This should not be a controversial idea, if you believe the Buddhist teachings do what they say the do, it should be common sense.

Here you go, I looked it up for you:
The Buddha wrote:188.Driven only by fear, do men go for refuge to many places – to hills, woods, groves, trees and shrines.

189.Such, indeed, is no safe refuge; such is not the refuge supreme. Not by resorting to such a refuge is one released from all suffering.

190-191.He who has gone for refuge to the Buddha, the Teaching and his Order, penetrates with transcendental wisdom the Four Noble Truths – suffering, the cessation of suffering, and the Noble Eightfold Path leading to the cessation of suffering.This indeed is the safe refuge, this the refuge supreme. Having gone to such a refuge, one is re-leased from all suffering.
If you spent as much time with actual Buddhist texts as you do speculating about stuff you could easily learn yourself, questions like this would not vex you.
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Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared

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Re: Was surprised by this

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Some say any act of Compassion in full understanding and knowledge, wisdom, is manifesting the qualities of Quan Yin. Can this not be found in Christianity? Was Jesus Enlightened? Even the Dalai Lama asked us not to compare Himself to Jesus, saying Jesus was “a gear Master, a great Master.” So I think that there is some sobriety in His mind about the subject matter. I understand there is a difficulty talking about it on this medium, but I have never met a knowledgable Buddhist that didn’t respect it. The Upaya simply runs deep here, and it’s not necessarily something we have to address. I understand the situation. And I know the humbleness of the Dalai Lama, He is Chenrezig but still claims He isn’t Realized sometimes, when to me He is the most openly Realized Buddha I have come across, and someone to model one’s life after.

Om Mani Padme Hum.

Anyway, with regards to comparing the Noble Eightfold Path and the Four Noble Truths, a lot of this can be found in Jesus’ Teachings, and the Epistles of the Apostles, especially in the Teachings of avoiding craving, which Christians call “the lusts of the flesh”. The New Testament isn’t an empty book, as tarnished as it is by time. But we are right here to stick to our Buddhism, but I think we will grow even more as Buddhists if we understand the meaning behind what Jesus was about, because there may be some hidden meaning there.

Nam Myoho Renge Kyo.
Last edited by Budai on Wed Apr 28, 2021 6:12 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Was surprised by this

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Könchok Chödrak wrote: Wed Apr 28, 2021 6:06 am Some say any act of Compassion in full understanding and knowledge, wisdom, is manifesting the qualities of Quan Yin. Can this not be found in Christianity? Was Jesus Enlightened? Even the Dalai Lama asked us not to compare Himself to Jesus, saying Jesus was “a gear Master, a great Master.” So I think that there is some sobriety in His mind about the subject matter. I understand there is a difficulty talking about it on this medium, but I have never met a knowledgable Buddhist that didn’t respect it. The Upaya simply runs deep here, and it’s not necessarily something we have to address. I understand the situation. And I know the humbleness of the Dalai Lama, He is Chenrezig but still claims He isn’t Realized sometimes, when to me He is the most openly Realized Buddha I have come across, and someone to model one’s life after.
This doesn't address anything I said. All religions teach compassion, literally all of them. That does not make them all the same, it simply means that compassion is a universal human value - a great thing. The difficulty talking about it is that you often will not listen to actual Buddhist teachings on the subject and just make things up based on what you want to be true, this has nothing to do with "the medium" and everything to do with the fact that you don't like to listen to the people you interact with on the forum, or to directly respond to the points they make. I mean, I literally quoted the Dhammapada for you after you asked "I wonder how the Buddha would view this" and you chose to ignore it.

It's your choice, but I'm not going to allow you do it constantly just by posting a bunch of nice-sounding stuff following your refusal to listen. I assume you are here to actually learn and not just to write sweet sounding stuff at us, so I am respecting you by challenging what you say.

Anyway, with regards to comparing the Noble Eightfold Path and the Four Noble Truths, a lot of this can be found in Jesus’ Teachings, and the Epistles of the Apostles, especially in the Teachings of avoiding craving, which Christians call “the lusts of the flesh”. The New Testament isn’t an empty book, as tarnished as it is by time. But we are right here to stick to our Buddhism, but I think we will grow even more as Buddhists if we understand the meaning behind what Jesus was about, because there may be some hidden meaning there.
There are no respected Buddhist leaders out there who claim that Christianity leads to the same result as Buddhism, and you are not doing us or yourself any favors by pretending otherwise, or talking about "hidden meanings". There is a big difference between ecumenical talk to encourage friendly relations between religions and the (often arrogant) idea that we can understand someone else's religion just because it looks similar to ours in places.
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when afflicted by disease

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared

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Re: Was surprised by this

Post by amanitamusc »

Könchok Chödrak wrote: Wed Apr 28, 2021 5:32 am
PeterC wrote: Wed Apr 28, 2021 5:23 am
avatamsaka3 wrote: Wed Apr 28, 2021 3:57 am I would beg to differ on a lot of these points, but I doubt it would do much good to go into them. All the best to you.
Curious to know which points? That christianity doesn't lead to liberation or lasting happiness is basic Buddhism. That American christians are only christian in the absolutely loosest possible sense, and that christianity generally has a horrible track record - Buddhism has no particular position on those, but the facts are reasonably clear.
I have never seen a Realized Buddhist Teacher during any kind of Teaching say that Christianity can not lead to Realization. I respect your opinion on this fully, but if you can point me to such a subject I would be interested to read it. As far as I know people like Thich Nhat Hanh and the Dalai Lama respect Christianity as something that can liberate one from Samsara. Thich Nhat Hanh specifically speaks deeply on the matter, and has many lectures and has written books on the subject. I am not questioning your wisdom and incentive, but I think we should consider what a Buddha’s perspective on this subject would be. What is your true definition of the Dharma? And can you be honest in your words while abiding in your thoughts about it? There is the Upaya at play, but what about the literal truth that so many strive for?

All respects.

Om Mani Padme Hum.

Nam Myoho Renge Kyo.
This speaks of perennialism not Buddha Dharma.
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Budai
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Re: Was surprised by this

Post by Budai »

Well look, from what you answered in the World-Honored One’s wise words:
The Buddha wrote:188.Driven only by fear, do men go for refuge to many places – to hills, woods, groves, trees and shrines.

189.Such, indeed, is no safe refuge; such is not the refuge supreme. Not by resorting to such a refuge is one released from all suffering.

190-191.He who has gone for refuge to the Buddha, the Teaching and his Order, penetrates with transcendental wisdom the Four Noble Truths – suffering, the cessation of suffering, and the Noble Eightfold Path leading to the cessation of suffering.This indeed is the safe refuge, this the refuge supreme. Having gone to such a refuge, one is re-leased from all suffering.
188. Christianity teaches people that perfect Love drives out all fear, and that the only fear people should ever have is in the beginning, which is the fear of God, which they believe is the beginning of all wisdom. Is there any similarity to this in Buddhism? What does Buddhism Teach us to fear?

189. Refuge must be in the Buddha, I agree. Maybe Christ is a Buddha too?

190-191. Learning how to overcome what Christians call sin (there is a different view of this in Buddhism, and that’s very good), Christians learn to not suffer. They overcome craving, and they have a deep belief in what they believe to be the Holy Spirit which is a Deity that guides them in understanding towards a sound mind and a good heart. In Buddhism different words may be referring to the Same thing.

* * *

Now, I understand that there is a real structure to Buddhism that is very different than Christianity, but religions aren’t like philosophical theories or math equations to see which one works and which one doesn’t. Real religion comes from people like Gautama Buddha. This is a common, basic understanding, and the Rime movement in Buddhism understands this type of thing quite well from what I have studied from it. And again, Thich Nhat Hanh finds Himself equal to someone like Martin Luther King Jr., a Christian. And was inspired by Him to explain Christian Teachings in a Buddhist way for the rest of His life, and He is definitely a Realized Zen Master.

I fully agree with the reality that the Path to Enlightenment in Buddhism is outlined by a certain set of Teachings, and the subject of Salvation in Christianity is approached quite differently, but there are similarities: faith in the Gohonzon in Nichiren Buddhism, prayer to Deities in Tibetan Buddhism, and reverence for the Pure Land in Pure Land Buddhism, Namu Amida Butsu. So there is some parallel there. After all one of these days we have to admit that we are dependent on other people too, if we’re going to accept in Emptiness that we don’t have selves that exist independently from each other, and that nothing really does.

I’m not arguing with you, and I have never believed that your opinion on this matter is any different than mine. This is just outward. This is just a simple discussion. Maybe someone will get some kind of question from something here that will lead them to a Realization that is important to them. Maybe. So I hope everything is okay with everyone here.

Namo Buddhaya. All homages to the Buddhas.

Nam Myoho Renge Kyo.
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Re: Was surprised by this

Post by PeterC »

Könchok Chödrak wrote: Wed Apr 28, 2021 6:06 am Anyway, with regards to comparing the Noble Eightfold Path and the Four Noble Truths, a lot of this can be found in Jesus’ Teachings, and the Epistles of the Apostles, especially in the Teachings of avoiding craving, which Christians call “the lusts of the flesh”. The New Testament isn’t an empty book, as tarnished as it is by time. But we are right here to stick to our Buddhism, but I think we will grow even more as Buddhists if we understand the meaning behind what Jesus was about, because there may be some hidden meaning there.
As JD said, almost every single religion advises us to not kill, not steal, avoid fornication (however defined), etc. That doesn't mean that all religions are the same. They are not the same, and in particular, the unique teachings of the Buddhadharma (independent arising, etc.) are not to be found elsewhere.

That is why, contrary to your suggestion, we should not waste time trying to find some hidden meaning "behind what Jesus was about". The christian religion believes in a creater god and an eternal soul. That's pretty much all we need to know: it's incompatible with the Buddhadharma. If we had infinite time, then sure, out of curiosity we could analyze these other teachings. But we have very little time, death is certain, the timing of it is unknown, etc etc., so we should use the very limited time available to focus on what can bring us to liberation, which is the Buddhadharma. Not wasting time trying to reinvent christianity as some sort of an access road onto the interstate highway of Buddhavacana. You can read the new testament as literature if that floats your boat, though frankly the old testament has better stories.
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Re: Was surprised by this

Post by Budai »

PeterC you have a wonderful approach, and I don’t disagree with you. Buddhism and Christianity are considered very much two different things. I think Gautama Buddha provided everything for us to come to Awakening. Time is short for many, and the Path of the Bodhisattva, though may be tread on for many lifetimes, must be accessed in the moment. I have no reason to disagree with you, and I see a full wisdom to your words coming from a place that Treasures the Dharma. So I am grateful for everything you are saying. Thank you for your kind words. Namaste.

Nam Myoho Renge Kyo.
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