Knower: Self and non-self?

[LastLegend]

The knower is non-self based on analysis...a while ago there was a post (by me?) on Mahayana Sutra of Consciousness revealed. Numerous times in the Sutra says, Alaya consciousness is like a seed that grows into a tree with branches and leaves but that seed is not found anywhere in the tree. The functions revealed themselves. One of which is the knower. I am not sure if I accurately capture this conceptually.

The knower is still self because it still knows itself which suggests self or that it knows it’s own existence which suggests self.

[Queequeg]

If I follow you, I think that's right. Alayavijnana is defiled. It's the seed from which samsara springs. Manas Vijnana (7th), observing the expressions of the alaya conceives a notion of self. As I understand, alaya is known only through it's appearances and can't be know directly.

[PadmaVonSamba]

Mr Potato Head isn’t there until you stick the face pieces into the potato.
The knower isn’t the self.
The knower is like the potato and
The self is like the composition of plastic face features stuck onto the potato.

The problem is, when Mr. Potato Head looks into a mirror, he only sees the composites, the arrangement of plastic features, and thinks “that’s me! That’s my self!”

Alaya Vijnana is basically baggage.
It’s the baggage that Mr. Potato Head accumulates and carries around. It’s not the self.

[LastLegend]

Oh come on now. Padmavomsamba.

[reiun]

Oh come on now. Padmavomsamba.

It is difficult to guess why you would scoff at efforts to help.

[PadmaVonSamba]

Oh come on now. Padmavomsamba.

The point is, this conclusion is wrong:

The knower is still self because it still knows itself which suggests self or that it knows it’s own existence which suggests self.

The knower isn’t a self.
There isn’t an “it” that still knows.
The “it” and “self” are imputed
in the same way that sticking plastic bits onto a potato creates the illusion of a face.

[LastLegend]

Oh come on now. Padmavomsamba.

It is difficult to guess why you would scoff at efforts to help.

It’s rather direct contemplation...to know how such appearance comes about. Sixth Patriarch said originally there is no thing...whatever appearance rationalized to not be self doesn’t mean we are not deluded in dreams at night.

[Budai]

My question is although the whole is made of parts, and is seen as not inherently existing because it is a composite that is basically empty, on what level must we understand the whole that the parts work so diligently to create? Is there no merit to what this is? Or is the merit given as the explanation and wonder of emptiness? Om.

[reiun]

Oh come on now. Padmavomsamba.

It is difficult to guess why you would scoff at efforts to help.

It’s rather direct contemplation...to know how such appearance comes about. Sixth Patriarch said originally there is no thing...whatever appearance rationalized to not be self doesn’t mean we are not deluded in dreams at night.

Ok, we are deluded in dreams at night. Thanks for that. I will put aside all Jungian proclivities.

Suggest you look for a *real* teacher to advise you about self/non-self. Going forward, I am unsure if more discussion here on this topic will be useful.

[Johnny Dangerous]

My question is although the whole is made of parts, and is seen as not inherently existing because it is a composite that is basically empty, on what level must we understand the whole that the parts work so diligently to create? Is there no merit to what this is? Or is the merit given as the explanation and wonder of emptiness? Om.

Go take a basic Mahayana Buddhism course or read a book focusing on dependent origination or emptiness, then you will have your answer. There is no "whole" of anything because there are not edges or delimiters to anything. Nothing can be a "whole" or a "part" ultimately, any edges, walls, beginnings and endings are just our own limitations and cages. This is addressed very directly in the Heart Sutra, translated in one place as "walls of the mind", which while maybe not linguistically accurate seems to strike at the ...heart of things.

[LastLegend]

It is difficult to guess why you would scoff at efforts to help.

It’s rather direct contemplation...to know how such appearance comes about. Sixth Patriarch said originally there is no thing...whatever appearance rationalized to not be self doesn’t mean we are not deluded in dreams at night.

Ok, we are deluded in dreams at night. Thanks for that. I will put aside all Jungian proclivities.

Suggest you look for a *real* teacher to advise you about self/non-self. Going forward, I am unsure if more discussion here on this topic will be useful.

That appearance if not transcended we cannot be said to have reached Noble Wisdom.

[LastLegend]

Oh come on now. Padmavomsamba.

The point is, this conclusion is wrong:

The knower is still self because it still knows itself which suggests self or that it knows it’s own existence which suggests self.

The knower isn’t a self.
There isn’t an “it” that still knows.
The “it” and “self” are imputed
in the same way that sticking plastic bits onto a potato creates the illusion of a face.

I think there is confusion here regarding what needs to be transcended...and what is understood through cognitions as non-self. Those are cognitions and imaginations.

[tkp67]

It’s rather direct contemplation...to know how such appearance comes about. Sixth Patriarch said originally there is no thing...whatever appearance rationalized to not be self doesn’t mean we are not deluded in dreams at night.

I think this points to a state of meditative awareness that does not have a formative description because it is a state of awareness that does not engage the minds cognition that would label things as this or that.

[reiun]

Oh come on now. Padmavomsamba.

The point is, this conclusion is wrong:

The knower is still self because it still knows itself which suggests self or that it knows it’s own existence which suggests self.

The knower isn’t a self.
There isn’t an “it” that still knows.
The “it” and “self” are imputed
in the same way that sticking plastic bits onto a potato creates the illusion of a face.

I think there is confusion here regarding what needs to be transcended...and what is understood through cognitions as non-self. Those are cognitions and imaginations.

Perhaps, in humility, you might not accuse someone else of confusion.

[LastLegend]

The point is, this conclusion is wrong:

The knower isn’t a self.
There isn’t an “it” that still knows.
The “it” and “self” are imputed
in the same way that sticking plastic bits onto a potato creates the illusion of a face.

I think there is confusion here regarding what needs to be transcended...and what is understood through cognitions as non-self. Those are cognitions and imaginations.

Perhaps, in humility, you might not accuse someone else of confusion.

1) Non-self is based on cognition and analysis

2) Self of consciousness itself this is not definitive self

3) Absolute non-self is when self of consciousness is transcended this is actual samadhi described in Sutras

[reiun]

Attribution?

[LastLegend]

It’s rather direct contemplation...to know how such appearance comes about. Sixth Patriarch said originally there is no thing...whatever appearance rationalized to not be self doesn’t mean we are not deluded in dreams at night.

I think this points to a state of meditative awareness that does not have a formative description because it is a state of awareness that does not engage the minds cognition that would label things as this or that.

We label it so we know that’s the final hidden ignorance that needs to go.

[Budai]

Go take a basic Mahayana Buddhism course or read a book focusing on dependent origination or emptiness, then you will have your answer. There is no "whole" of anything because there are not edges or delimiters to anything. Nothing can be a "whole" or a "part" ultimately, any edges, walls, beginnings and endings are just our own limitations and cages. This is addressed very directly in the Heart Sutra, translated in one place as "walls of the mind", which while maybe not linguistically accurate seems to strike at the ...heart of things.

Thank you for pointing it out. Here is an excerpt from an article on Dependent Origination:

With ignorance as a causal condi­tion, there are formations of volitional impulses. With the formations as a causal condition, there is the arising of consciousness. With consciousness as a condition, there is the arising of body and mind (nāma-rūpa). With body and mind as a condition, there is the aris­ing of the six sense doors. (In Buddhist teaching, the mind is also one of the sense doors as well as seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting and touching.) With the six sense doors as a condition, there is the arising of contact. With contact as a condition, there is the arising of feeling. With feeling as a condition, there is the arising of craving. With craving as a condition, there’s the aris­ing of clinging. With clinging as a condition, there’s the arising of becoming. With becoming as a con­dition, there’s the arising of birth. And, with birth as a condition, there’s the arising of aging and death. That de­scribes the links.

This process, when reversed, is also described as a process of release or free­dom. With the abandonment of igno­rance, there is the cessation of karmic formations. With the cessation of karmic formations, there is the falling away of consciousness, and so on.

https://www.buddhistinquiry.org/article ... igination/

I think the second paragraph is giving an essential point. Thank you for your wisdom.

[Johnny Dangerous]

Go take a basic Mahayana Buddhism course or read a book focusing on dependent origination or emptiness, then you will have your answer. There is no "whole" of anything because there are not edges or delimiters to anything. Nothing can be a "whole" or a "part" ultimately, any edges, walls, beginnings and endings are just our own limitations and cages. This is addressed very directly in the Heart Sutra, translated in one place as "walls of the mind", which while maybe not linguistically accurate seems to strike at the ...heart of things.

Thank you for pointing it out. Here is an excerpt from an article on Dependent Origination:

With ignorance as a causal condi­tion, there are formations of volitional impulses. With the formations as a causal condition, there is the arising of consciousness. With consciousness as a condition, there is the arising of body and mind (nāma-rūpa). With body and mind as a condition, there is the aris­ing of the six sense doors. (In Buddhist teaching, the mind is also one of the sense doors as well as seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting and touching.) With the six sense doors as a condition, there is the arising of contact. With contact as a condition, there is the arising of feeling. With feeling as a condition, there is the arising of craving. With craving as a condition, there’s the aris­ing of clinging. With clinging as a condition, there’s the arising of becoming. With becoming as a con­dition, there’s the arising of birth. And, with birth as a condition, there’s the arising of aging and death. That de­scribes the links.

This process, when reversed, is also described as a process of release or free­dom. With the abandonment of igno­rance, there is the cessation of karmic formations. With the cessation of karmic formations, there is the falling away of consciousness, and so on.

https://www.buddhistinquiry.org/article ... igination/

I think the second paragraph is giving an essential point. Thank you for your wisdom.

That's the twelve links, Madhyamaka applies it to all phenomena:

Whatever arises dependently

Is explained as empty.
Thus dependent attribution
Is the middle way.

Since there is nothing whatever
That is not dependently existent,
For that reason there is nothing

Whatsoever that is not empty.

I was taught to do the actual analysis on objects, parts of your body, cars, whatever throughout the day...find the parts, the parts of the parts, see if you can find an ending or beginning.

[Budai]

Here is also part of a basic article about emptiness and dependent arising, though with quite an advanced understanding of Avalokakitesvara’s contemplation on emptiness, which brought Him to a Realization. The Teaching is from the Dalai Lama on Emptiness and Dependant Arising:

There are extensive, medium and short editions of the Perfection of Wisdom literature, among which the Heart Sutra is one of the shortest. His Holiness mentioned that the Heart Sutra is revered and recited across the Northern Buddhist World of China, Korea, Japan, Vietnam, Tibet, Mongolia and the Himalayan Region. On the basis of what it says, whatever practice we do must be qualified by an understanding of emptiness, otherwise we will not reach enlightenment. The sutra tells that at one time the Buddha was engaged in absorption on an aspect of wisdom when the Bodhisattva Avalokiteshvara too was thinking about how the five aggregates, which are the basis of the person, are also empty. His Holiness pointed out that the word ‘also’ in this context, which is found in both the Sanskrit original and the Tibetan versions of the text, is missing from the Chinese versions and those that derive from it.

When the text says ‘Form is empty, emptiness is form,’ His Holiness explained that it means that no intrinsic entity can be found. It is empty because it exists on the basis of other causes and conditions. We can also say that things appear and yet lack any intrinsic existence. To help understand and interpret this we need to think about Nagarjuna’s explanation that things have conventional existence but lack intrinsic existence. Emptiness implies dependent arising. A result depends upon a cause, but in terms of dependent arising we can also say that the cause depends on the result, much as action, agent and object depend on each other.

His Holiness also mentioned that the mantra of the Heart Sutra, ‘Tayata Gate gate paragate parasamgate bodhi soha’ indicates the changes that take place as a practitioner makes progress on the spiritual path. He said that our practice should steadily improve until we too eventually become a perfect Buddha. The key is the understanding of emptiness, because this is the only opponent to the ignorance and the disturbing emotions that give rise to suffering. The Perfection of Wisdom teachings have two aspects: emptiness, upon which Nagarjuna expounded, and the stages of the path, explained by Asanga.

His Holiness then announced his intention to give a transmission of Je Tsongkhapa’s text, ‘In Praise of Dependent Arising’ which emphasises the importance of both emptiness and dependent arising. He suggested that it would be good to recite the Heart Sutra followed by this text daily. He said that emptiness and dependent arising are complementary. If dependent arising makes you think of emptiness and emptiness makes you think of dependent arising at the same time you have a proper understanding of emptiness.

https://www.dalailama.com/news/2014/tea ... kir-ladakh