Genuine advice sought.

Casual conversation between friends. Anything goes (almost).
Simon E.
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Re: Genuine advice sought.

Post by Simon E. »

PeterC wrote: Fri Jun 26, 2020 12:47 pm
Simon E. wrote: Fri Jun 26, 2020 11:41 am Actually what I was addressing was not so much wrong views as views attributed to anonymous teachers.
All schools of the Mahayana are pretty much based on the authority of teachers. Live or dead. Those lines of authority need to be clear and checkable. When we are simply giving our own subjective experiences or thoughts (which can be interesting and useful) we need to be clear that’s what they are. Or so it seems to me.
The thin maroon line separating useful discussion of the Dharma from solipsistic speculation is clarity around sources of authority. I think we generally do well here on forcing people to justify their claims through some sort of authority - whether textual, instruction from teachers, or otherwise “my experience”, which of course we can ignore freely.

I think it’s reasonable and indeed a norm of this community that people can be challenged to state their grounds in an argument. I thunk it’s also reasonable to tell people politely if they’re being disruptive or digressing, and to report to mods if they persist. But that’s just my personal opinion.
I think it’s pretty reasonable too.
“You don’t know it. You just know about it. That is not the same thing.”

Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche to me.
Simon E.
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Re: Genuine advice sought.

Post by Simon E. »

Dan74 wrote: Fri Jun 26, 2020 1:19 pm People have teachers and talk crap and people don't have teachers and talk crap.

I think here most people take what's written with a grain of salt, regardless of professed credentials. "Ignore" function is very useful too.

If memory serves, you create a thread like this with respect to users who get your goat, every few years, Simon, waging a campaign on multiple fronts to expunge them from the forum. It must be a special kind of karma to be reborn as a Dharmapala of Buddhist Forums :smile:

On the other hand, it's possible to create subfora open only to people with certain requirements, like being current and active students within certain lineages.
And if memory serves Dan you have a very ambivilant attitude to any kind of dissonance on the forum. On the one hand you are keen to smother it with a fire blanket and on the other hand you seek it out like a shark reacting to a small drop of blood in the water.
I would have been utterly astonished if you hadn’t responded to this thread.
Having said that your description of my habitual donning of the war bonnet is painfully accurate.
“You don’t know it. You just know about it. That is not the same thing.”

Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche to me.
Norwegian
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Re: Genuine advice sought.

Post by Norwegian »

Dan74 wrote: Fri Jun 26, 2020 1:52 pm
Fa Dao wrote: Fri Jun 26, 2020 1:45 pm
Dan74 wrote: Fri Jun 26, 2020 1:19 pm People have teachers and talk crap and people don't have teachers and talk crap.

I think here most people take what's written with a grain of salt, regardless of professed credentials. "Ignore" function is very useful too.

If memory serves, you create a thread like this with respect to users who get your goat, every few years, Simon, waging a campaign on multiple fronts to expunge the menace from the forum. It must be a special kind of karma to be reborn as a Dharmapala of Buddhist Forums :smile:

On the other hand, it's possible to create subfora open only to people with certain requirements, like being current and active students within certain lineages.
Hey Dan,
I didnt know we could do that. So for example I could start a Dzogchen Longde forum that couldnt be read by the general public? and only accessible to those that are students of Namkhai Norbu and have had that transmission?
I'm sure forum admins can do that.

There is of course an existing thread for the Dzogchen Community, but if there is a real reason why a closed one is needed (e.g. avoiding disclosing matters than are or should not be in the public domain) then I encourage you (and others) to lobby to that.
This isn't a good idea, because it means talking about teachings that are restricted, and should not be talked about openly like this, just like ChNN said many times. A "closed forum" doesn't work, simply due to the fact that there are site managers and site admins that have access to everything. If one wants to talk about these things which Fa Dao suggests, it should be between ones teachers and ones close Vajra family which also received these things. But not on an Internet forum.
"The Guru is the Buddha, the Guru is the Dharma,
The Guru is the Sangha too,
The Guru is Śrī Heruka.
The All-Creating King is the Guru."

-- The Secret Assembly Tantra
Simon E.
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Re: Genuine advice sought.

Post by Simon E. »

Fa Dao wrote: Fri Jun 26, 2020 1:45 pm
Dan74 wrote: Fri Jun 26, 2020 1:19 pm People have teachers and talk crap and people don't have teachers and talk crap.

I think here most people take what's written with a grain of salt, regardless of professed credentials. "Ignore" function is very useful too.

If memory serves, you create a thread like this with respect to users who get your goat, every few years, Simon, waging a campaign on multiple fronts to expunge the menace from the forum. It must be a special kind of karma to be reborn as a Dharmapala of Buddhist Forums :smile:

On the other hand, it's possible to create subfora open only to people with certain requirements, like being current and active students within certain lineages.
Hey Dan,
I didnt know we could do that. So for example I could start a Dzogchen Longde forum that couldnt be read by the general public? and only accessible to those that are students of Namkhai Norbu and have had that transmission?
Mixed feelings...very attractive, but very difficult in terms of the overall modding of the forum.
“You don’t know it. You just know about it. That is not the same thing.”

Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche to me.
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LastLegend
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Re: Genuine advice sought.

Post by LastLegend »

Not sure why people don’t get it’s not an easy journey. Alluding to days when people feel annoyed by others’ behavior and there are days they feel peaceful and calm they don’t care. I don’t understand why they don’t owe the responsibility instead of putting on others whom they think cause their reactions.
It’s eye blinking.
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Dan74
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Re: Genuine advice sought.

Post by Dan74 »

Simon E. wrote: Fri Jun 26, 2020 2:13 pm
Dan74 wrote: Fri Jun 26, 2020 1:19 pm People have teachers and talk crap and people don't have teachers and talk crap.

I think here most people take what's written with a grain of salt, regardless of professed credentials. "Ignore" function is very useful too.

If memory serves, you create a thread like this with respect to users who get your goat, every few years, Simon, waging a campaign on multiple fronts to expunge them from the forum. It must be a special kind of karma to be reborn as a Dharmapala of Buddhist Forums :smile:

On the other hand, it's possible to create subfora open only to people with certain requirements, like being current and active students within certain lineages.
And if memory serves Dan you have a very ambivilant attitude to any kind of dissonance on the forum. On the one hand you are keen to smother it with a fire blanket and on the other hand you seek it out like a shark reacting to a small drop of blood in the water.
I would have been utterly astonished if you hadn’t responded to this thread.
Having said that your description of my habitual donning of the war bonnet is painfully accurate.
Something for both of us to bring into the fold of practice, perhaps..
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Dan74
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Re: Genuine advice sought.

Post by Dan74 »

Norwegian wrote: Fri Jun 26, 2020 2:17 pm
Dan74 wrote: Fri Jun 26, 2020 1:52 pm
Fa Dao wrote: Fri Jun 26, 2020 1:45 pm

Hey Dan,
I didnt know we could do that. So for example I could start a Dzogchen Longde forum that couldnt be read by the general public? and only accessible to those that are students of Namkhai Norbu and have had that transmission?
I'm sure forum admins can do that.

There is of course an existing thread for the Dzogchen Community, but if there is a real reason why a closed one is needed (e.g. avoiding disclosing matters than are or should not be in the public domain) then I encourage you (and others) to lobby to that.
This isn't a good idea, because it means talking about teachings that are restricted, and should not be talked about openly like this, just like ChNN said many times. A "closed forum" doesn't work, simply due to the fact that there are site managers and site admins that have access to everything. If one wants to talk about these things which Fa Dao suggests, it should be between ones teachers and ones close Vajra family which also received these things. But not on an Internet forum.
Right. This is something that a community like yours should discuss, get teacher's advice on and then if it's appropriate, perhaps a forum could be host it. Or not, if not. Ultimately the aim of a place like this is to serve the Dharma, so whatever works..
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LastLegend
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Re: Genuine advice sought.

Post by LastLegend »

I am not sure why it’s so difficult to understand that every action is karma and will come seek us. Action on the forum is no exception.
It’s eye blinking.
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Matt J
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Re: Genuine advice sought.

Post by Matt J »

I would not relegate experience to some second class status. Official "authority" is no indication of experience or realization. And experience is often taught to be the bridge between intellectual understanding and permanent realization.
PeterC wrote: Fri Jun 26, 2020 12:47 pm The thin maroon line separating useful discussion of the Dharma from solipsistic speculation is clarity around sources of authority. I think we generally do well here on forcing people to justify their claims through some sort of authority - whether textual, instruction from teachers, or otherwise “my experience”, which of course we can ignore freely.
"The essence of meditation practice is to let go of all your expectations about meditation. All the qualities of your natural mind -- peace, openness, relaxation, and clarity -- are present in your mind just as it is. You don't have to do anything different. You don't have to shift or change your awareness. All you have to do while observing your mind is to recognize the qualities it already has."
--- Yongey Mingyur Rinpoche
Malcolm
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Re: Genuine advice sought.

Post by Malcolm »

Matt J wrote: Fri Jun 26, 2020 2:52 pm I would not relegate experience to some second class status. Official "authority" is no indication of experience or realization. And experience is often taught to be the bridge between intellectual understanding and permanent realization.
Experiences are mind; mind is relative.
"Nonduality is merely a name;
that name does not exist."
—Kotalipa
PeterC
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Re: Genuine advice sought.

Post by PeterC »

Matt J wrote: Fri Jun 26, 2020 2:52 pm I would not relegate experience to some second class status. Official "authority" is no indication of experience or realization. And experience is often taught to be the bridge between intellectual understanding and permanent realization.
PeterC wrote: Fri Jun 26, 2020 12:47 pm The thin maroon line separating useful discussion of the Dharma from solipsistic speculation is clarity around sources of authority. I think we generally do well here on forcing people to justify their claims through some sort of authority - whether textual, instruction from teachers, or otherwise “my experience”, which of course we can ignore freely.
Just a small step back from there and you’re in the territory of “everything’s equally valid”. There is a difference between the authority of canonical texts and recognized masters, and the opinion of anyone who knows how to access the internet
Simon E.
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Re: Genuine advice sought.

Post by Simon E. »

Dan74 wrote: Fri Jun 26, 2020 2:31 pm
Simon E. wrote: Fri Jun 26, 2020 2:13 pm
Dan74 wrote: Fri Jun 26, 2020 1:19 pm People have teachers and talk crap and people don't have teachers and talk crap.

I think here most people take what's written with a grain of salt, regardless of professed credentials. "Ignore" function is very useful too.

If memory serves, you create a thread like this with respect to users who get your goat, every few years, Simon, waging a campaign on multiple fronts to expunge them from the forum. It must be a special kind of karma to be reborn as a Dharmapala of Buddhist Forums :smile:

On the other hand, it's possible to create subfora open only to people with certain requirements, like being current and active students within certain lineages.
And if memory serves Dan you have a very ambivilant attitude to any kind of dissonance on the forum. On the one hand you are keen to smother it with a fire blanket and on the other hand you seek it out like a shark reacting to a small drop of blood in the water.
I would have been utterly astonished if you hadn’t responded to this thread.
Having said that your description of my habitual donning of the war bonnet is painfully accurate.
Something for both of us to bring into the fold of practice, perhaps..
Indeed. :namaste:
“You don’t know it. You just know about it. That is not the same thing.”

Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche to me.
Simon E.
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Re: Genuine advice sought.

Post by Simon E. »

Matt J wrote: Fri Jun 26, 2020 2:52 pm I would not relegate experience to some second class status. Official "authority" is no indication of experience or realization. And experience is often taught to be the bridge between intellectual understanding and permanent realization.
PeterC wrote: Fri Jun 26, 2020 12:47 pm The thin maroon line separating useful discussion of the Dharma from solipsistic speculation is clarity around sources of authority. I think we generally do well here on forcing people to justify their claims through some sort of authority - whether textual, instruction from teachers, or otherwise “my experience”, which of course we can ignore freely.
Official authority may not be a guarantee of realisation, but an absence of official authority in certain traditions, particularly Vajrayana including Dzogchen is a real issue and problem in my view. In the absence of such clear indicators of authority I for one am not inclined to give much weight to proffered opinions. ‘Experience’ can be the result of faulty learning, mindset, or as Scrooge observes to Marley’s ghost ‘ a morsel of undigested cheese’.
“You don’t know it. You just know about it. That is not the same thing.”

Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche to me.
Simon E.
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Re: Genuine advice sought.

Post by Simon E. »

LastLegend wrote: Fri Jun 26, 2020 2:50 pm I am not sure why it’s so difficult to understand that every action is karma and will come seek us. Action on the forum is no exception.
Which would include making claims to a non existent teacher. Or jumping into threads we don’t understand because we are verbally incontinent.

So let’s hope no one does that..😮
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tkp67
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Re: Genuine advice sought.

Post by tkp67 »

Experience is one thing, what is learned from it in retrospect another.

One thing I have noticed is that navigating these things with compassion allows for expression and the ability to recognize subtle signs of self throughout the process.

Very hard to gracefully elucidate these things and almost impossible in lay life.

There is a particular and important aspect to the sounding board and collective of minds here.

There is always an aspect of dharma that challenges my understanding in a good way. I can't imagine it happening the same way without the interactive component.
Simon E.
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Re: Genuine advice sought.

Post by Simon E. »

The most compassionate person I have ever met ( and I am NOT comparing myself to him in any respect at all) would have thrown you out of the window of a skyscraper if he knew you would become realised before you hit the ground.
Ruthless compassion. Uncompromising compassion.
“You don’t know it. You just know about it. That is not the same thing.”

Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche to me.
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tkp67
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Re: Genuine advice sought.

Post by tkp67 »

Simon E. wrote: Fri Jun 26, 2020 4:04 pm The most compassionate person I have ever met ( and I am NOT comparing myself to him in any respect at all) would have thrown you out of the window of a skyscraper if he knew you would become realised before you hit the ground.
Ruthless compassion. Uncompromising compassion.
Fair enough and I tend to air on the side of empathetic which can be problematic.

I think it is reasonable however to say hey there is even upside in the downside here being it is a matter of perspective.
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LastLegend
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Re: Genuine advice sought.

Post by LastLegend »

People are really idiots after spending 40 years or so that they can’t understand anything for themselves. You don’t need a f teacher to tell you stop searching and stop accumulating all these learning and studying from authorial sources or whatever and only to confuse yourself. Maybe I am just a lazy and lousy practitioner, I don’t f need to do shit. People talk about teachers yet teachers are not always present, so they really owe themselves a responsibility to get this shit down. They are too busy bickering about shit instead of reading wtf is being communicated. frak annoying yet running around complaining annoyances from others.
It’s eye blinking.
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Grigoris
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Re: Genuine advice sought.

Post by Grigoris »

LastLegend wrote: Fri Jun 26, 2020 5:13 pm People are really idiots after spending 40 years or so that they can’t understand anything for themselves. You don’t need a f teacher to tell you stop searching and stop accumulating all these learning and studying from authorial sources or whatever and only to confuse yourself. Maybe I am just a lazy and lousy practitioner, I don’t f need to do shit. People talk about teachers yet teachers are not always present, so they really owe themselves a responsibility to get this shit down. They are too busy bickering about shit instead of reading wtf is being communicated. frak annoying yet running around complaining annoyances from others.
You think you are being helpful by having a meltdown?
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LastLegend
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Re: Genuine advice sought.

Post by LastLegend »

Grigoris wrote: Fri Jun 26, 2020 5:22 pm
LastLegend wrote: Fri Jun 26, 2020 5:13 pm People are really idiots after spending 40 years or so that they can’t understand anything for themselves. You don’t need a f teacher to tell you stop searching and stop accumulating all these learning and studying from authorial sources or whatever and only to confuse yourself. Maybe I am just a lazy and lousy practitioner, I don’t f need to do shit. People talk about teachers yet teachers are not always present, so they really owe themselves a responsibility to get this shit down. They are too busy bickering about shit instead of reading wtf is being communicated. frak annoying yet running around complaining annoyances from others.
You think you are being helpful by having a meltdown?
Yes I’ve melted!
It’s eye blinking.
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