Renewable Energy

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martinser
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Re: Renewable Energy

Post by martinser »

I don't think so. I think solar power energy it's our future.
Mirror
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Re: Renewable Energy

Post by Mirror »

Everything is interconnected. You can't replace fossil fuels with solar and wind energy, when thes types of energy are made from and using fossil fuels.... Our planet gets worse and worse, while we have more and more "ecofriendly" technologies..... People are so stupid these days. Just sit for a while a think about it deeply.
The road to hell is paved with good intentions.
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Kim O'Hara
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Re: Renewable Energy

Post by Kim O'Hara »

Mirror wrote: Tue May 12, 2020 11:13 pm Everything is interconnected. You can't replace fossil fuels with solar and wind energy, when thes types of energy are made from and using fossil fuels....
You can, actually.
So long as you get more energy out of the solar and wind power plants than you would have gotten from the fossil fuels used in making them, you end up making an energy "profit". And we do. Further down the track, we're building solar and wind power plants using solar and wind energy, so it's all good.
Our planet gets worse and worse, while we have more and more "ecofriendly" technologies..... People are so stupid these days.
We have too many people, and too many of them (us) are short-sighted and greedy. Cleaning up our energy supplies helps but it won't fix everything.
Just sit for a while a think about it deeply.
Good thought!

:meditate:

:namaste:
Kim
Mirror
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Re: Renewable Energy

Post by Mirror »

Kim O'Hara wrote: Tue May 12, 2020 11:35 pm You can, actually.
So long as you get more energy out of the solar and wind power plants than you would have gotten from the fossil fuels used in making them, you end up making an energy "profit". And we do. Further down the track, we're building solar and wind power plants using solar and wind energy, so it's all good.

:namaste:
Kim
No, we don't produce more than we would produce by burning these fossil fuels used in making them. Even so we can't store the electricity produced by solar and wind powerplants, so when weather isn't appropriate, we have to turn on a powerplant that use fossil fuels... By turning off and on we produce more CO2, than we would by running that powerplant continuously..

New technology can't save us. In a new complex technologies are more and more things involved. We couldn't develop an electric car without developing the car running on fossil fuels first. In order to develop the "perfect" technology, we need to go through all bad technologies....
The road to hell is paved with good intentions.
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Aemilius
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Re: Renewable Energy

Post by Aemilius »

Mirror wrote: Wed May 13, 2020 1:29 pm
Kim O'Hara wrote: Tue May 12, 2020 11:35 pm You can, actually.
So long as you get more energy out of the solar and wind power plants than you would have gotten from the fossil fuels used in making them, you end up making an energy "profit". And we do. Further down the track, we're building solar and wind power plants using solar and wind energy, so it's all good.

:namaste:
Kim
Even so we can't store the electricity produced by solar and wind powerplants, so when weather isn't appropriate, we have to turn on a powerplant that use fossil fuels...
That is not true at all. Many methods of storing the electricity that is generated by wind, sun shine, waves etc.. have been developed and are in use. Please be acquainted with at least some of them!

The following list includes a variety of types of energy storage:

Fossil fuel storage
Mechanical
Spring
Compressed air energy storage (CAES)
Fireless locomotive
Flywheel energy storage
Solid mass gravitational
Hydraulic accumulator
Pumped-storage hydroelectricity (pumped hydroelectric storage, PHS, or pumped storage hydropower, PSH)
Electrical, electromagnetic
Capacitor
Supercapacitor
Superconducting magnetic energy storage (SMES, also superconducting storage coil)
Biological
Glycogen
Starch
Electrochemical (Battery Energy Storage System, BESS)
Flow battery
Rechargeable battery
UltraBattery
Thermal
Brick storage heater
Cryogenic energy storage, Liquid air energy storage (LAES)
Liquid nitrogen engine
Eutectic system
Ice storage air conditioning
Molten salt storage
Phase-change material
Seasonal thermal energy storage
Solar pond
Steam accumulator
Thermal energy storage (general)
Chemical
Biofuels
Hydrated salts
Hydrogen storage
Hydrogen peroxide
Power to gas
Vanadium pentoxide

Mechanical

Energy can be stored in water pumped to a higher elevation using pumped storage methods or by moving solid matter to higher locations (gravity batteries). Other commercial mechanical methods include compressing air and flywheels that convert electric energy into kinetic energy and then back again when electrical demand peaks.
svaha
"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 1. (in english and sanskrit)
Mirror
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Re: Renewable Energy

Post by Mirror »

Aemilius wrote: Wed May 13, 2020 1:49 pm That is not true at all. Many methods of storing the electricity that is generated by wind, sun shine, waves etc.. have been developed and are in use. Please be acquainted with at least some of them!
:good:

Wow, thank you so much for this!
The road to hell is paved with good intentions.
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Nemo
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Re: Renewable Energy

Post by Nemo »

It's getting ridiculous how many people claim to understand how solar is perfect yet they have never done it. I did it for years. It doesn't work for transport or heating. Physics doesn't care about your politics. If it's so easy DO IT. If not stop pontificating.
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Grigoris
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Re: Renewable Energy

Post by Grigoris »

Nemo wrote: Wed May 13, 2020 6:34 pm It's getting ridiculous how many people claim to understand how solar is perfect yet they have never done it. I did it for years. It doesn't work for transport or heating. Physics doesn't care about your politics. If it's so easy DO IT. If not stop pontificating.
The thing with heating with solar energy is if you have enough solar energy (sunshine) available to generate solar powered energy for heating, then that generally means you do not need to heat. ;)

In Greece we tend to use solar heating for hot water, as we have plenty of sunshine, but it is not all that efficient. Even here on the island where I live which has the most days of sunshine of any place in Europe (I was doing research for a multinational alternative power/energy company that wanted to invest here when I came across that fact), there still is not enough sunshine to heat a 60 liter water tank during many winter days.

The other thing is that we do not even use "conventionally" generated energy efficiently. In many eastern European countries (for example) the water that was used for cooling generators in the power plants, was then piped to surrounding residences for (free) heating during the winter months. One of the beauties of state-centered planning.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
reiun
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Re: Renewable Energy

Post by reiun »

In a First, Renewable Energy Is Poised to Eclipse Coal in U.S.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/13/clim ... ables.html

That would be "U.S.", as in "America"
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Kim O'Hara
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Re: Renewable Energy

Post by Kim O'Hara »

spike wrote: Wed May 13, 2020 10:57 pm In a First, Renewable Energy Is Poised to Eclipse Coal in U.S.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/13/clim ... ables.html

That would be "U.S.", as in "America"
But wait! There's more!!
In the middle of a pandemic, renewables are taking over the grid

The reduction in driving, flying, and industrial activity due to the COVID-19 pandemic has cleared the air in typically smog-choked cities all over the world, inspiring awe in residents who are seeing more blue skies and starry nights than ever before. While the drop in pollution doesn’t necessarily mean we’re making progress in mitigating climate change, it’s now proving to be a boon for solar energy generation.

Pollution blocks solar radiation, and the fine particles spat out during combustion can settle on the surface of solar panels, reducing their efficiency. Smog-free skies, along with a lucky combination of sunny days and cooler temperatures, which boost panel efficiency, have helped solar panels break records in the U.K., Germany, and Spain this spring. The trend points to the potential for a positive (and hopeful) feedback loop — as polluting energy sources are replaced by solar panels, those solar panels will be able to generate more energy.

In Germany, a record that was set in March was broken again on April 20, when solar generated 40 percent of the country’s electricity, while coal and nuclear power generated just 22 percent. ...

In the U.K., record solar power generation also helped coal plants set a major record, but the opposite kind. The entire U.K. energy system ran with zero coal-fired power plant generation for more than 18 days, the longest streak in more than a century. Britain has just four remaining coal plants, all of which are scheduled to close by 2025. ...

BloombergNEF paints an optimistic picture that the renewable energy takeover will continue on a global scale. The financial research firm found that utility-scale solar farms and onshore wind farms now offer the cheapest source of electricity for about two-thirds of the world’s population. ...

The price of electricity from onshore wind farms dropped 9 percent since mid-2019, and solar electricity prices likewise declined 4 percent. ...
:reading: https://grist.org/energy/in-the-middle- ... -the-grid/

Nemo, Mirror - you're out of date, or biased by what works (or not) in your particular corner of the world, or both. Please stop talking down the positive changes.

:thanks:
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Kim O'Hara
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Re: Renewable Energy

Post by Kim O'Hara »

Grigoris wrote: Wed May 13, 2020 6:50 pm
Nemo wrote: Wed May 13, 2020 6:34 pm It's getting ridiculous how many people claim to understand how solar is perfect yet they have never done it. I did it for years. It doesn't work for transport or heating. Physics doesn't care about your politics. If it's so easy DO IT. If not stop pontificating.
The thing with heating with solar energy is if you have enough solar energy (sunshine) available to generate solar powered energy for heating, then that generally means you do not need to heat. ;)
On the other hand, you may need to cool. Here in the dry tropics, a large minority of homeowners (25% and increasing fast) install rooftop solar panels primarily to kill their airconditioning costs. Feed-in tariffs (what the power company pays us for any power we sell to them) are very low but a 4.5 - 5.5 Kw system (without batteries) can still reduce power bills almost to nothing. By doing so, it pays for itself in 5 - 8 years - and of course it adds value to the house, so you will get most of it back if you sell before that time.
In Greece we tend to use solar heating for hot water, as we have plenty of sunshine, but it is not all that efficient. Even here on the island where I live which has the most days of sunshine of any place in Europe (I was doing research for a multinational alternative power/energy company that wanted to invest here when I came across that fact), there still is not enough sunshine to heat a 60 liter water tank during many winter days.
Here, passive solar hot water works brilliantly. We had a system on the roof at our old place and we only turned on the (mains electric) booster about ten days per year. In Melbourne, which is closer to your climate, people leave the booster turned on all the time and it switches itself on and off as needed. The sun still does most of the heating, cutting hot water costs by half or more (bigger panels = more heating, of course).
That said, PV solar is now so cheap that we found adding a couple of panels to the PV system and keeping the old electric water heater at the new place (we moved last year) would be cheaper than replacing it with a rooftop passive hot water system. I think that approach would probably be best in Greece, too, especially as it avoids any problems with rooftop panels freezing in your winters.
The other thing is that we do not even use "conventionally" generated energy efficiently. In many eastern European countries (for example) the water that was used for cooling generators in the power plants, was then piped to surrounding residences for (free) heating during the winter months. One of the beauties of state-centered planning.
Yes, there's a lot of wastage. Some of it is unavoidable, though - piped heating works best in high-density cities, for instance.

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Kim
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Grigoris
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Re: Renewable Energy

Post by Grigoris »

Kim O'Hara wrote: Thu May 14, 2020 12:59 am...
Sorry if I gave the impression that it doesn't work at all. It works, but only to a certain degree. You cannot rely on it completely. The idea of renewables is to completely cut ourselves off from our dependence on non-renewable sources of energy. There is no panacea though. Solar may work great in places with high levels of sunshine, but it is going to be completely useless in Bergen on Glasgow.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
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Aemilius
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Re: Renewable Energy

Post by Aemilius »

Nemo wrote: Wed May 13, 2020 6:34 pm It's getting ridiculous how many people claim to understand how solar is perfect yet they have never done it. I did it for years. It doesn't work for transport or heating. Physics doesn't care about your politics. If it's so easy DO IT. If not stop pontificating.
Most houses in my area are heated by the district heating system. Electricity comes from the big companies. Why would we need to establish our own electric generators and the like?
svaha
"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 1. (in english and sanskrit)
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Kim O'Hara
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Re: Renewable Energy

Post by Kim O'Hara »

Grigoris wrote: Thu May 14, 2020 7:30 am
Kim O'Hara wrote: Thu May 14, 2020 12:59 am...
Sorry if I gave the impression that it doesn't work at all. It works, but only to a certain degree. You cannot rely on it completely. The idea of renewables is to completely cut ourselves off from our dependence on non-renewable sources of energy. There is no panacea though. Solar may work great in places with high levels of sunshine, but it is going to be completely useless in Bergen on Glasgow.
Nemo grumbles about it all the time but it's not completely useless even in Northern Canada - see maps here https://www.energyhub.org/solar-energy-maps-canada/
The biggest problem in high latitudes is not lack of sunshine so much as the variation from summer to winter. In the far north, you get ten times as much power per day in summer as in winter, so you have to provide alternatives equal to your whole power needs. (Contrast that with our variation here, which is only plus or minus ten percent of the average.) Why bother with solar, then? Well, it might save you shipping in X thousand gallons of fuel oil per year for your summer usage...
There are all sorts of trade-offs and some are very specific to locations.

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Grigoris
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Re: Renewable Energy

Post by Grigoris »

Kim O'Hara wrote: Thu May 14, 2020 9:19 amThe biggest problem in high latitudes is not lack of sunshine so much as the variation from summer to winter. In the far north, you get ten times as much power per day in summer as in winter, so you have to provide alternatives equal to your whole power needs.
Which takes it back to my original point: Who needs heating in summer? :smile:

I was also wondering: Does solar energy provide enough power to run air conditioner units? They tend to drain a lot of power. It is one thing to heat some water to a comfortable level and another to chill all the air in a room or house.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
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Kim O'Hara
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Re: Renewable Energy

Post by Kim O'Hara »

Grigoris wrote: Thu May 14, 2020 9:38 am
Kim O'Hara wrote: Thu May 14, 2020 9:19 amThe biggest problem in high latitudes is not lack of sunshine so much as the variation from summer to winter. In the far north, you get ten times as much power per day in summer as in winter, so you have to provide alternatives equal to your whole power needs.
Which takes it back to my original point: Who needs heating in summer? :smile:
Of course. But there may still be reasons to go (partly) solar, as I said.
I was also wondering: Does solar energy provide enough power to run air conditioner units? They tend to drain a lot of power. It is one thing to heat some water to a comfortable level and another to chill all the air in a room or house.
Absolutely.
The way the technology is functioning here and now, households install (as I said) systems of around 5 Kw. They typically generate 20 Kwh per day, and household consumption (including aircon) of a four-person household is very close to that figure. In practice, working parents with school-age children use little power during daylight hours of the working week but feed excess power into the grid at one third the cost of buying power from the supplier, and that (roughly) covers evening consumption. Batteries would let them time-shift their solar power into the evenings, but they are still a bit too expensive to be worth installing.
Retirees obviously use more in daytime because they are at home more often, but they are mostly two-person households so their total consumption is less, and the end result is about the same.

Could you do it in Brisbane, 1100 Km south of us? Just about. In Melbourne, another 1100 Km south? Not unless you worked really hard at it.

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Re: Renewable Energy

Post by pemachophel »

We have both solar and geothermal in our house. While the geothermal works OK for heating in the winter, it works really, really well for air-conditioning in the summer and without the loud noise of air-conditioners outside so many of our neighbors' houses.
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Kim O'Hara
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Re: Renewable Energy

Post by Kim O'Hara »

Rooftop solar is so popular here that it's putting a dent in fossil-fuelled generation:
The latest edition of the National Energy Emissions Audit published by The Australia Institute found that the initial impact of disruptions caused by the Covid-19 pandemic has had a small impact on electricity consumption.

At the same time, the continued strong growth in uptake of rooftop solar, which supplied more than 16 per cent of South Australia’s total electricity consumption over the last summer, and 7.7 per cent of Queensland’s consumption over the same period, has worked to drive fossil fuel generators out of the market. ...

Based on this strong growth, the National Energy Emissions Audit predicts that the annual share of renewable energy in Australia will top 25 per cent for the first time in the year to April 2020. ...
:reading: https://reneweconomy.com.au/record-grow ... ket-71696/

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DharmaN00b
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Re: Renewable Energy

Post by DharmaN00b »

The current crisis seems to show that even more people are redundant and that quite a lot of people have the appearance of doing something important, or at least bear the rank of 'low-key'...

At present many of us are finding new ways to occupy ourselves: renewing energy re-creationally! I mean if energy is theoretically free- or kind of maybe- if nuclear fusion emerges in good time, and robots mine the moon and do pretty much everything, then there's going to be an investment in fake meaning. After all, occupational identity seems pretty central. We have to do something, right?

if we're talking green occupation, I'm thinking plant spotter, bird watcher, pontificator ... that sort of thing, at least until we get further afield. The skies are the limit. :alien:
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Nemo
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Re: Renewable Energy

Post by Nemo »

I do find trying to get my house to net zero incredibly fun. It's definitely not cost effective sometimes though funky tax credits have made some things worthwhile like the triple pane space windows with silver IR reflective coatings. One thing I didn't factor in is comfort. It can be minus 30C and you can sit right beside the picture window with no draft, the basement is so dry it's basically a living space now with ample sunlight and you can turn off the AC and cool the house by opening the windows at night and just close them in the morning. It started as trying to lower my energy bill but the overall effect was much more than the constituent parts. I also cut my energy bill in half. It makes your home's usable space larger and more comfortable.
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