Does Buddhism Require You To Be a Liberal?

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Fortyeightvows
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Re: Does Buddhism Require You To Be a Liberal?

Post by Fortyeightvows »

Malcolm wrote: Wed Jan 15, 2020 5:26 pm Also, Nāgārjuna, for example, recommends that sovereigns pardon criminals, abolish death sentences for capital crimes, provide universal healthcare and social services, etc.

Most Buddhists I know personally oppose abortion, since the Buddhist theory of conception means that a zygote is a sentient being. However, most Western Buddhists understand that all arguments against abortion are fundamentally religious arguments, and therefor, understand the necessity of not legislating religious values into law.
So we can use religious arguments (from Nagarjuna) for things that you like.
But religious arguments against killing babys can't use because they are religious arguments.
Fortyeightvows
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Re: Does Buddhism Require You To Be a Liberal?

Post by Fortyeightvows »

Queequeg wrote: Thu Jan 16, 2020 10:48 pm
ford_truckin wrote: Thu Jan 16, 2020 10:37 pm Best not to express your views too openly if you happen to be a conservative. A pro-life, pro traditional marriage stance will get you banned fast even though you can find support for these viewpoints in Buddhist texts.
Stop exaggerating. No one has ever been banned for expressing pro-life or pro traditional marriage views. They get banned for posting slurs and other offensive remarks.

Talk about snowflakes.
That's not really an exaggeration, because promoting or glorifying or elevating traditional marriage as far superior to nontraditional 'arrangments' would count as 'offensive.'.
Fortyeightvows
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Re: Does Buddhism Require You To Be a Liberal?

Post by Fortyeightvows »

Malcolm wrote: Wed Jan 15, 2020 6:34 pm However, most of the GOP Buddhists I know do not belong to a mainstream Buddhist denomination, but rather somewhat fringy groups.
I’m very interested in who these fringy groups are.
tkp67
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Re: Does Buddhism Require You To Be a Liberal?

Post by tkp67 »

If Nagarjuna was here today I do believe he may have referred to sex assignment change as just that. The use of words and what they mean speaks volumes of a person's desires, intent, compassion and equanimity.

Personally I don't think it is necessary to be raw to compelling.

There is another dynamic here. Just because we can put a swath of beings under one label such as buddhist, christian, liberal, conservative, etc. doesn't mean they reflect that nature. Imagine we could label others or ourselves and our nature conformed accordingly?
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PeterC
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Re: Does Buddhism Require You To Be a Liberal?

Post by PeterC »

Fortyeightvows wrote: Sat Jan 18, 2020 7:57 am look, the places where the most Buddhist people live are always. very conservative by western standards. It’s just a fact.

And to those who say they have some ‘liberal’ asian friends, just ask them what they think of guys who want to dress like woman and/or cut their d**** off.
I’d bet you’ll find out that most of them are ‘hatefull’ ‘bigots’ whose opinion about men cutting of their d**** would certainly go against this site's tos.
Would you consider China to be conservative in those terms? Look up a chinese ex-army person called Jin Xing. The PLA was perfectly ok with him cutting his genitalia off and becoming her, and Chinese government is perfectly ok with her being a media personality featured frequently on TV - and featured, interestingly, not as a trans person, but just as a normal public figure with opinions about normal issues. Things aren’t always as simple as you might think.

And if we’re really making this a discussion about transsexuals, would you also consider Thailand and the Philippines as conservative? You might find a few people there who engage in elective genital surgery.

Can anyone imagine what Nagarjuna would say to person who wanted to cut off their d***, or who wanted the king to pay for such a thing ?
Cause that's what liberal means in the west.
Does it mean that? According to who? Nancy Pelosi? Angela Merkel? Macron? Show me their public and vocal support for this issue.

This is really just a ‘conservative’ talking point. Because it avoids talking about issues relevant to a greater number of people, such as how society treats the poor.

I don’t really understand why I keep seeing stuff about transsexualism in media. I don’t think it’s an issue that affects many people or needs to be such a high priority. I presume that it keeps getting shoved into the public discourse by (a) activists who do care a lot about it, and (b) religious extremists who see it as a useful wedge issue, and use it in exactly the way that you have used it here.

And for the record, I can’t imagine a health system wanting to spend money on gender reassignment surgery until they had, for example, made sure all diabetics had access to insulin. But remind me again, why it is that insulin is so expensive in the US?
Fortyeightvows
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Re: Does Buddhism Require You To Be a Liberal?

Post by Fortyeightvows »

I don’t really understand why I keep seeing stuff about transsexualism in media
Maybe it's because there are still alot of people in the west who think that a man in a dress doesn't belong in the woman's restroom of a primary school ?
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PeterC
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Re: Does Buddhism Require You To Be a Liberal?

Post by PeterC »

Fortyeightvows wrote: Sat Jan 18, 2020 11:13 am
I don’t really understand why I keep seeing stuff about transsexualism in media
Maybe it's because there are still alot of people in the west who think that a man in a dress doesn't belong in the woman's restroom of a primary school ?
Ah. So it wasn’t unintentional, you are just parroting talking points.

How many times was this reported, or were people arrested for it, last year?

How many primary school students are cross-dressing?

Who is encouraging primary school children to exhibit this sort of behavior? Specific references please.

Honestly if you think that this is a widespread problem; or if you think this is an important issue; then you’re not exercising common sense and reason. Alternatively you may simply be discussing in bad faith. I suspect there’s a bit of the latter going on here. What are the candidates for the democratic nomination trying to talk about in their campaigns? The economy, jobs, poverty, healthcare, halting the endless wars, etc. All reasonable and sensible topics. What are you bringing up as the defining issue of “the liberals”? Men in primary schools’ women’s bathrooms.

I also note that you didn’t really respond to any of my points, you just quoted one line out of context and used it as a jumping-off point for a hyperbolic talking point.

Apologies for being blunt, but to paraphrase Clarence Thomas, this is an uncommonly silly discussion.
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Caoimhghín
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Re: Does Buddhism Require You To Be a Liberal?

Post by Caoimhghín »

Fortyeightvows wrote: Sat Jan 18, 2020 7:55 am
Queequeg wrote: Thu Jan 16, 2020 10:48 pm
ford_truckin wrote: Thu Jan 16, 2020 10:37 pm Best not to express your views too openly if you happen to be a conservative. A pro-life, pro traditional marriage stance will get you banned fast even though you can find support for these viewpoints in Buddhist texts.
Stop exaggerating. No one has ever been banned for expressing pro-life or pro traditional marriage views. They get banned for posting slurs and other offensive remarks.

Talk about snowflakes.
That's not really an exaggeration, because promoting or glorifying or elevating traditional marriage as far superior to nontraditional 'arrangments' would count as 'offensive.'.
Yes, because that makes no sense.

Why do you have to lower gays to raise yourself up? Who exactly are you talking about? It would help if you were a little more clear.
savi saghara aṇica di, savi saghara dukha di, savi dhama aṇatva di:
yada paśadi cakhkṣuma tada nivinadi dukha eṣo mago viśodhia.

"All formations are inconstant," he said.
"All formations are stressful," he said.
"All phenomena are selfless," he said.
When one sees this, one becomes adverse to stress, and this is the path of purity.

(Gāndhārī Dharmapada fragments)
Fortyeightvows
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Re: Does Buddhism Require You To Be a Liberal?

Post by Fortyeightvows »

Mod Note: Metadiscussion removed

I picked that example for a few reasons. One reason was because of the exchange between fordtruckin and Q, second because someone else mentioned their 'liberal' 'tibetan friends' and third because it is easy to show that obviously most people, most buddhist (and basiclly everyone in the world until pretty recently) doesn't really think that behavior should be encouraged or celebarted.
How many times was this reported, or were people arrested for it, last year?
Well I would think that in the west, it is legal for men wearing dress to walk into womans bathrooms.
And if they haven't already 'western' schools will soon be hiring those people to teach the children.
There is already these perverse 'story times' that are happening in america.
Who is encouraging primary school children to exhibit this sort of behavior? Specific references please.
If the story time isn't enough of an example- Google bro- you can find lots

Anyways, I'll just give a few more quick examples when I say that buddhist countrys are more conservative. I'll use the countrys you named.

Unlike the west- China makes sure the terrorists within it's lands don't get to comfortable. Also they keep a close watch on the criminally inclined population in the south.

In thailand it is criminal to disrespect buddha or the monarch.

Also, thailand enforces some immigration laws.

And people can't just go to china or thailand, over stay their visa, pop out some kids and collect free money(or services) for the rest of their lives, or hope to vote! (and yes, america does let people do that)

Philippines is not a buddhist country.

But let's mention some more buddhist countries, like sri lanka, or if you really want to get the western buddhists to start going crazy- burma!

Even the op said that the buddhists they know in real life are conservative.
My response of course was that;
What you say is correct, and of course worldwide the majority of Buddhists definitely lean 'right' (by western standards far right).
But on this website most of the people are westerners, and all of the mods are too, so that's why the culture on this site is what it is.
My main point is-
"Does Buddhism Require You To Be a Liberal?"
No of course not.
Fortyeightvows
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Re: Does Buddhism Require You To Be a Liberal?

Post by Fortyeightvows »

Caoimhghín wrote: Sat Jan 18, 2020 12:19 pm
Fortyeightvows wrote: Sat Jan 18, 2020 7:55 am
Queequeg wrote: Thu Jan 16, 2020 10:48 pm Stop exaggerating. No one has ever been banned for expressing pro-life or pro traditional marriage views. They get banned for posting slurs and other offensive remarks.

Talk about snowflakes.
That's not really an exaggeration, because promoting or glorifying or elevating traditional marriage as far superior to nontraditional 'arrangments' would count as 'offensive.'.
Yes, because that makes no sense.

Why do you have to lower gays to raise yourself up? Who exactly are you talking about? It would help if you were a little more clear.
I don't really need to lower or raise anyone- but Q says "No one has ever been banned for expressing pro-life or pro traditional marriage views. They get banned for posting slurs and other offensive remarks." And I think that doesn't make sense because anyone promoting tradition will be labeled as 'offensive' and then banned

Here, i'll test it and we can see:
Being gay comes from sexual misconduct in past lives.
It is not normal or healthy for men to wear dresses and/or want to cut off their d****
Last edited by Fortyeightvows on Sat Jan 18, 2020 12:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Caoimhghín
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Re: Does Buddhism Require You To Be a Liberal?

Post by Caoimhghín »

Fortyeightvows wrote: Sat Jan 18, 2020 12:26 pm (and basiclly everyone in the world until pretty recently)
Are you quite sure about that?

I don't need to educate you on the history of homosexuality, simply because I don't think you're going to read anything I post to you.

You have truths that make you feel secure, happy, and make you feel like a master of your environment, that environment being human society around the world and that global history which has come to be the foundation of that global human society.

The thing is, you don't know. You don't know that everyone in the world until pretty recently thought that romantic love between men should be neither celebrated nor encouraged.

I actually know plenty of Buddhists that are okay with homosexuality, and they are a Sri Lankan immigrant community in Scarborough.
Last edited by Caoimhghín on Sat Jan 18, 2020 12:51 pm, edited 3 times in total.
savi saghara aṇica di, savi saghara dukha di, savi dhama aṇatva di:
yada paśadi cakhkṣuma tada nivinadi dukha eṣo mago viśodhia.

"All formations are inconstant," he said.
"All formations are stressful," he said.
"All phenomena are selfless," he said.
When one sees this, one becomes adverse to stress, and this is the path of purity.

(Gāndhārī Dharmapada fragments)
mikenz66
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Re: Does Buddhism Require You To Be a Liberal?

Post by mikenz66 »

Fortyeightvows wrote: Sat Jan 18, 2020 7:57 am And to those who say they have some ‘liberal’ asian friends, just ask them what they think of guys who want to dress like woman and/or cut their d**** off.
I don't disagree that Asian cultures are conservative in many ways. However, Thai culture generally appears quite tolerant of gay and trans, and a number of gay and trans people turn up at our local monastery.

:heart:
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Fortyeightvows
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Re: Does Buddhism Require You To Be a Liberal?

Post by Fortyeightvows »

Mod Note: Meta Discussion Removed

Caoimhghín, I'll tell you the truth.
I actually like your posts and respect you. So I probably would read your post. I don't care if your gay or not and I imagine if we met, I'd still respect you and enjoy hanging out with you.
And actually the tone of your post makes me respect you more.
:cheers:

But this part "You don't know that everyone in the world until pretty recently thought that romantic love between men should be neither celebrated nor encouraged." Maybe- but there are still lots of people, and lots of buddhists who don't think that.

anyways that's my last post on this thread.
Malcolm
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Re: Does Buddhism Require You To Be a Liberal?

Post by Malcolm »

Fortyeightvows wrote: Sat Jan 18, 2020 7:54 am
Malcolm wrote: Wed Jan 15, 2020 5:26 pm Also, Nāgārjuna, for example, recommends that sovereigns pardon criminals, abolish death sentences for capital crimes, provide universal healthcare and social services, etc.

Most Buddhists I know personally oppose abortion, since the Buddhist theory of conception means that a zygote is a sentient being. However, most Western Buddhists understand that all arguments against abortion are fundamentally religious arguments, and therefor, understand the necessity of not legislating religious values into law.
So we can use religious arguments (from Nagarjuna) for things that you like.
But religious arguments against killing babys can't use because they are religious arguments.
If we use religious arguments, you have to bear in mind, that, according to our own texts a fetus experiences no pain until 19 weeks, at which point aborting it becomes killing of a human being, but not before. This defined in Vinaya.
Last edited by Malcolm on Sat Jan 18, 2020 1:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Caoimhghín
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Re: Does Buddhism Require You To Be a Liberal?

Post by Caoimhghín »

It must be in the Mūlasarvāstivāda vinaya? I've read a lot of Theravādin abortion debates and never seen that come up from their vinaya.
savi saghara aṇica di, savi saghara dukha di, savi dhama aṇatva di:
yada paśadi cakhkṣuma tada nivinadi dukha eṣo mago viśodhia.

"All formations are inconstant," he said.
"All formations are stressful," he said.
"All phenomena are selfless," he said.
When one sees this, one becomes adverse to stress, and this is the path of purity.

(Gāndhārī Dharmapada fragments)
Malcolm
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Re: Does Buddhism Require You To Be a Liberal?

Post by Malcolm »

Fortyeightvows wrote: Sat Jan 18, 2020 12:31 pm
Being gay comes from sexual misconduct in past lives.
No. This is not correct, and is not how the five recognizable genders in Buddhist texts occur. Gender preference is mostly a result of the mother's conduct during pregnancy.
Malcolm
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Re: Does Buddhism Require You To Be a Liberal?

Post by Malcolm »

Caoimhghín wrote: Sat Jan 18, 2020 1:23 pm It must be in the Mūlasarvāstivāda vinaya? I've read a lot of Theravādin abortion debates and never seen that come up from their vinaya.
Perhaps, in our Vinaya, a monk can only be guilty of killing a human being after the 19th week.
Simon E.
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Re: Does Buddhism Require You To Be a Liberal?

Post by Simon E. »

Fortyeightvows wrote: Sat Jan 18, 2020 12:31 pm Mod Note: Meta Discussion Removed
Caoimhghín wrote: Sat Jan 18, 2020 12:19 pm
Fortyeightvows wrote: Sat Jan 18, 2020 7:55 am

That's not really an exaggeration, because promoting or glorifying or elevating traditional marriage as far superior to nontraditional 'arrangments' would count as 'offensive.'.
Yes, because that makes no sense.

Why do you have to lower gays to raise yourself up? Who exactly are you talking about? It would help if you were a little more clear.
I don't really need to lower or raise anyone-

Being gay comes from sexual misconduct in past lives.
It is not normal or healthy for men to wear dresses and/or want to cut off their d****
A) Bollocks. The Buddha himself cautioned against ascribing present conditions to specific behaviours. And there is no consensus which identifies homosexual behaviour as misconduct per se.
B) in any case you are conflating being gay with being transgendered.
“You don’t know it. You just know about it. That is not the same thing.”

Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche to me.
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Caoimhghín
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Re: Does Buddhism Require You To Be a Liberal?

Post by Caoimhghín »

I'm pretty sure if we really want to go looking, the source is likely one of the Chinese apocryphal bodhisattvaśīla scriptures in the 1400's of the Taishō Canon. That's just a guess, those scriptures have all sorts of things in them.

But its very common to be of the opinion that cheating will get you reborn as a homosexual. Even people who are okay with homosexuals may be of that opinion, since why would you kick a man while he's down (while he's homosexual, so to speak, in this instance)? Even if misconduct leads to birth as a homosexual, it doesn't make any sense then to be extra cruel or what-have-you toward homosexuals because of what happened in the past.

That being said, I'd be interested if there's canonical sources for this. I hear it often enough that people have to be pulling it from somewhere, and I hear it often coming from Thai Buddhism, so I think it may be some śrāvaka Buddhavacana in their canon.

It's like if I learned that Queequeg (sorry to use you as an example here) has a terrible non-contagious genetic skin condition and that he got it as a result of being a rapist in 1850 or something, then I decided to treat Queegqueg like he's a rapist right now and make conclusions about his person based on his skin condition and that I've decided he's still a rapist.

It just doesn't make a lot of sense.
savi saghara aṇica di, savi saghara dukha di, savi dhama aṇatva di:
yada paśadi cakhkṣuma tada nivinadi dukha eṣo mago viśodhia.

"All formations are inconstant," he said.
"All formations are stressful," he said.
"All phenomena are selfless," he said.
When one sees this, one becomes adverse to stress, and this is the path of purity.

(Gāndhārī Dharmapada fragments)
humble.student
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Re: Does Buddhism Require You To Be a Liberal?

Post by humble.student »

Malcolm wrote: Sat Jan 18, 2020 1:19 pm If we use religious arguments, you have to bear in mind, that, according to our own texts a fetus experiences no pain until 19 weeks, at which point aborting it becomes killing of a human being, but not before. This defined in Vinaya.
This view is consonant with Aristotle, English Common Law, and until the late 19th century, the teachings of the Catholic church.
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