Why Greta Thunberg Should Be Time’s Person of the Year

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futerko
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Re: Why Greta Thunberg Should Be Time’s Person of the Year

Post by futerko »

Vasana wrote: Sat Dec 21, 2019 7:52 pm Both. All sentient life and the ecological balance that supports them.
Are you seriously asking me to believe that you think this is sustainable? That we can have 7 billion population, possibly doubling in 25 years, and that we can successfully maintain a balance (which we haven't yet managed throughout the whole of history), while at the same time maintaining a good standard of life for those potentially 14 billion humans?
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Re: Why Greta Thunberg Should Be Time’s Person of the Year

Post by Vasana »

It all boils down to consumption. The carrying capacity of the planet at current rates of consumption and population are obviously unsustainable. But if we were to say, not produce and consume all of the unnecessary crap we do, then there would be more than enough land and food to go round for growing populations. Capitalism as usual won't allow that though so only big shifts could make it possible.

We live in a state of excess and artificial scarcity. There's plenty to go around.
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Re: Why Greta Thunberg Should Be Time’s Person of the Year

Post by ShantiPeace »

This article and thread are quite disgusting...

Thank Vasana for posting...

Not much to say in reply to this nonsense, - and yes nonsense it is.

Closing time? I'm guessing?
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futerko
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Re: Why Greta Thunberg Should Be Time’s Person of the Year

Post by futerko »

Vasana wrote: Sat Dec 21, 2019 8:25 pm It all boils down to consumption. The carrying capacity of the planet at current rates of consumption and population are obviously unsustainable. But if we were to say, not produce and consume all of the unnecessary crap we do, then there would be more than enough land and food to go round for growing populations. Capitalism as usual won't allow that though so only big shifts could make it possible.

We live in a state of excess and artificial scarcity. There's plenty to go around.
In theory there is, yes.

In the U.K. we had an election last week, and it was like a children's pantomime. This is the level at which we make decisions. In this sense, it takes someone like Greta to actually make any impact even on public consciousness - precisely because it is all done at this level of ideological posturing.

The "sensible" approach, which you seem to be putting forward, and which I think Greta also represents, seems to me to entirely miss the problem - what we see around us is entirely what we already wanted - this is the result of our choice, we have "democracy" and democracy chooses Donald Trump. You cannot at the same time argue for the "will of the people" and at the same time expect some kind of rational direction for growth. This ideal completeness to these two fundamentally incompatible viewpoints is arguably why it appears we are merely banging our heads against a brick wall in the first place!
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Re: Why Greta Thunberg Should Be Time’s Person of the Year

Post by pemachophel »

Prayer to Prithvi Devi, Goddess of the Earth,
To End Global Warming


Prithvi Devi, Goddess of the Earth,
You are known by many names –
Womb of the World, Fertile One, Birthplace, Source of Everything,
Producer of Everything, Nurturing Mother,
All-nourishing Mother of Plants,
Womb of Forest Trees and Herbs,
Stable One, Steady One, Patient One, and Vast.

You it was Who bore witness for the World-conqueror
When challenged by Mara and His hosts under the Bodhi Tree.
You it is Who supports the feet of all who teach the Golden Light Sutra
And have promised to greatly enrich the essential nutrients of the earth.
Your throne is located in the navel of the earth, seat of wisdom.
Homage to You and Your retinue of hundreds of thousands of Earth Goddesses.

Although You replenish the earth and increase its abundance,
Non-virtuous actions and the proliferation of kleshas
Cause You and Your retinue to decline and withdraw.
Thus the interdependence of inner causes and outer conditions,
The container and its contents.
Although Your power is beyond conception,
It corresponds to the moral behavior of we sentient beings.

Mother Earth, You are free from deceit.
You are founded on truth and sustained by great truth.
You cannot bear lies, false witness, and betrayal of friends,
Those who betray confidences,
Those who do not perform their duties,
Those who do not support their parents, children, and teachers.
Goddess of the Earth, You cannot be deceived.

Yet we degenerate human beings at this sorry end of time
Have raped and plundered our environment, our only home,
This beautiful blue ball floating in space.
For short-sighted, short-lived pleasure and play,
We have lied to ourselves and others in the chase of material wealth.
We have consumed more than our fair share of the earth’s resources
Without heed for the generations of our children to come.
We have fouled our own nests with toxins, pollution, and trash.

Please have mercy on us ignorant, greedy human beings.
We beseech You –
Do not turn Your back on us arrogant despoilers.
We fully confess our wanton plundering of the bounty of the world,
And, from this time on, we promise to
Refuse, reuse, recycle, and reduce to the best of our ability.

More importantly, however, we vow to abandon the 10 non-virtuous acts,
The true causes of the degeneration of this Kali Yuga.
Instead we vow to practice the 10 virtuous acts as diligently as possible
And thus resuscitate the real mechanisms of benefit and ease in the world.

Dridha, Sustainer, in the presence of the Tathagata,
You have sworn to uphold and increase
The purity and abundance of the natural environment.
There can be no more perilous time than now.

Vasundhara, Bearer of Treasure, we call on You.
Now is the time to come to the aid of the world and its beings.
We do not have the power to control the elements,
But You and Your retinue do.

By the power of the truth of the Buddha,
By the power of the truth of the Dharma
By the power of the truth of the Sangha,
And by the power of the truth of the truth itself,
We invoke You here and now,
At this very moment, in this very place. Please listen!

For the sake of all sentient beings in this Jambudvipa,
Turn back global warming in all its manifestations.
Turn back the warming of the oceans and flooding of the coasts.
Turn back the melting of glaciers and ice-caps.
Turn back the exhaustion of aquifers.
Turn back the desertification of the environment.
Turn back the deforestation of forests and jungles.
Turn back the extinction of plants and animals.
Turn back animal agriculture and the eating of meat.
Turn back the use of poisonous fertilizers, herbicides, and pesticides.
Turn back the emission of carbon dioxide.
Turn back the release of methane.
Turn back the ever-worsening of natural disasters.
Turn back irregularities in the seasons and weather.
Turn back the arising of new diseases and resistance to medicines.
Turn back famine and drought, pestilence and epidemics,
Warfare and invasions over dwindling resources,
And turn back the breakdown of society these incur.

Sequester carbon dioxide within the earth.
Bestow great richness and fertility on the soil.
Transform all deserts into fertile fields.
Purify the air of noxious pollutants.
Insure the purity of all waters.
Remove all plastics from the oceans.
Restore the ozone layer and prevent radiation.
Grow back forests and jungles, the lungs of the world.
Bestow riches and abundance on all people and nations of the world
So they do not have to migrate or invade their neighbors.
Make all plants, shrubs, trees, herbs, fruits, and vegetables flourish and grow.
Make the great earth glow with radiance and luster.

Vishvadharini, All-supporting, listen.
If we do not do our part in practicing both virtue and environmentalism,

Then we are deceivers who do not deserve Your help.
But if we practice the 10 virtuous actions the best we can
And work for the environment in every possible way,
We pray You help us with Your great power
To avert world-wide catastrophe
And the inconceivable suffering it will bring.

For the sake of all sentient beings, Bodhi Svaha!

Sitting above the central channel of the Land of A,
Shrimati Saraswati, Goddess of Speech,
Inspired me, the lazy Lama mistakenly named Perfection of Qualities, to write these words during the 4th month of the Earth Pig year. May it be auspicious.
Pema Chophel པདྨ་ཆོས་འཕེལ
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Johnny Dangerous
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Re: Why Greta Thunberg Should Be Time’s Person of the Year

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

Vasana wrote: Sat Dec 21, 2019 7:00 pm
Johnny Dangerous wrote: Sat Dec 21, 2019 5:30 pm People have this suspicion of The youth climate movement being bought or whatever, it’s a reasonable suspicion, but not for the nonsensical reasons often given in right wing screeds on the subject. Like Vasana said, it’s very similar to the Tobacco industry, here’s an article on the subject:

https://theintercept.com/2019/12/13/you ... -industry/
People are going to make money from the climate transition, no doubt. People are suspicious of money and billionaires involved in social issues understandably. But if I had to choose between the status quo billionaires and those green billionaires pushing for a green transition, I'd go with the latter. There will be a money shuffle and this is exactly why the status quo billionaires, oil tycoons and focus groups spread so much uncertainty. The irony in being ultra suspicious of green finance, whether legitimate or that of movement co-opting is that in some ways it shifts the attention away from what is already wrong with regular economics and the financial elite of the world.

Undoubtedly there will be people attempting to cash in on the back of Greta and the youth movement but Greta and XR have been pretty consistent with their message, the science. Greta has also on multiple times directly called out the nonsense of eternal GDP growth - that's the thing worth remembering. She knows capitalism as it stands today is not suitable and current politics aren't either. She also recognizes any greenwashed version of capitalism with GDP as focus will be inadequate too. So regardless of who attempts to cash in on the movement, she's already on to them and will continue to point out how inadequate that approach is given the scale and pace of change needed.

I think she's smarter than people give her credit for and has laser like focus to stay on message, on the science, even when others insist on focusing on her just being an angry teenager.

“It seems they will cross every possible line to avert the focus, since they are so desperate not to talk about the climate and ecological crisis,”

Problem is when the Green Billionaires aren’t actually green, I’m pretty skeptical of the whole carbon trading thing.
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Re: Why Greta Thunberg Should Be Time’s Person of the Year

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

Nicholas Weeks wrote: Sat Dec 21, 2019 7:20 pm Brave of 48 to post one Xtian perspective on the ills of society. Thank you for doing so.

The author of the piece, John Horvat, is dedicated to doing and saying what he thinks is beneficial to humanity. This is needed. What is not needed is immediate expressions of contempt & derision.

Granted, that is a difficult impulse to stop. Buddha said something like how hard it is to respect or have compassion for those we call fools.
So is Greta Thunberg ostensibly, she also has the advantage of not being a member of the sort of ‘society’ that Horvat is. All kinds of people think they are doing what is beneficial for humanity.

Next time you post a political screed, I'm going to quote back to you that "what's not needed is more contempt and derision".

IMO the OP was primarily to stir negative emotions in the people known to disagree with these sorts of views, accompanied by a refusal to actually engage with them.

It's counterproductive to claim to be some persecuted conservative minority on DW all while setting fires and walking away.

If it weren’t for Vasana actually engaging this thread would be exactly what 48 intended it to be, an online drive-by for the people he disagrees with, but won’t bother actually engaging with as other human beings. Maybe they/we are just too demonic and awful like Greta.

So basically, if peeps want the thread to continue, post something of substance in response.

I’m leaving the thread up because we might actually be able to engage on some of the issues, but the snipe-and-run tone of the OP shows a total lack of respect for other people participating in the thread, I can only assume that’s the intention.
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Re: Why Greta Thunberg Should Be Time’s Person of the Year

Post by ShantiPeace »

That was well said.
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Re: Why Greta Thunberg Should Be Time’s Person of the Year

Post by tatpurusa »

So what is the Greta phenomenon all about?

Is it:

1. adult politicians dodging their own responsibility to take decisions?
2. Some dark forces using children for propaganda
3. Abusing young generations to advance own agenda because they are more prone to see the world black-and-white and so more easy to manipulate? Just like the advertising industry targets especially children in order to induce adults to buy and consume even more?

4. All of these three?

Greta Thunberg wins TIME Person of the Year: It’s a symptom of a sick & confused world when adults make children their leaders

https://www.rt.com/op-ed/475620-greta-t ... al-crisis/
Since our leaders are behaving like children, we will have to take the responsibility they should have taken long ago,” she said last December. “We have to understand what the older generation has dealt to us, what mess they have created that we have to clean up and live with.” ....
....
Encouraging children to revolt against their irresponsible elders is the inevitable outcome of adult-blaming. That is why the head of politics at Cambridge University could call for children as young as six to be given the vote. .......
You know that society is in deep trouble when six-year-olds are assigned the responsibility for determining society’s future
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Re: Why Greta Thunberg Should Be Time’s Person of the Year

Post by ShantiPeace »

Quite the opposite really.

Who is now more alert, more intelligent, more capable of learning, than when they were 14-16?

All honesty, they are way better at learning.
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Re: Why Greta Thunberg Should Be Time’s Person of the Year

Post by tkp67 »

ShantiPeace wrote: Sun Dec 22, 2019 6:01 pm Quite the opposite really.

Who is now more alert, more intelligent, more capable of learning, than when they were 14-16?

All honesty, they are way better at learning.
Also they are less attached to samsara because they haven't been as exposed to it. As we grow so do our delusions. They are more pure by proxy.
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Re: Why Greta Thunberg Should Be Time’s Person of the Year

Post by Vasana »

Johnny Dangerous wrote: Sun Dec 22, 2019 2:34 am Problem is when the Green Billionaires aren’t actually green, I’m pretty skeptical of the whole carbon trading thing.
Oh yeah for sure. So much of it just green-washing. Back to where Greta points out the lunacy of 'fairytales of endless economic growth'. That statement naturally includes any kind of green capitalism that still has GDP growth as it's core drive.

We need both economic and political systems that don't really exist yet which is a big problem. But the whole idea of back casting is you have a goal to reach and then imagine what steps would be needed to get from where you are now to there. Unfortunately, I think this will include things like carbon taxes, trading, offsets and all of the other stuff which is mere tokenism that fails to address the problem in the grand scheme of things, but perhaps still necessary steps in the right direction.
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Re: Why Greta Thunberg Should Be Time’s Person of the Year

Post by tatpurusa »

ShantiPeace wrote: Sun Dec 22, 2019 6:01 pm Quite the opposite really.

Who is now more alert, more intelligent, more capable of learning, than when they were 14-16?

All honesty, they are way better at learning.
So do you somehow allege that the capacity of learning at its highest somehow magically does compensate for the lack of maturity and life experience?
Sincerely, just ask any parents of teenagers of this age, in case you do not have any children of this age.

OK, than lets begin at the family level. Would it be a good idea if decisions about the life and future destiny of the family were made by teenagers?
If it's not a good idea on this scale, why on earth it would it be a better idea on a planetary scale?

Maybe we could go on and limit the term of presidency to only 4 years once, with the age limits between 14-18?
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Re: Why Greta Thunberg Should Be Time’s Person of the Year

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

Ok, I'm not keeping this thread open to debate this nonsense - i.e. to spend time talking about whether young people can be president or whatever, because it's a complete red herring. Same with all this BS about how Greta is too young, too frumpy, too female, to bland or whatever, really has zero to do with her message.

I'll leave the thread open to see if someone brings up actual points that can be debated instead of titillating conspiratorial bullshit, but my patience is wearing thing, so come correct or don't come at all.
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Re: Why Greta Thunberg Should Be Time’s Person of the Year

Post by Vasana »

tatpurusa wrote: Sun Dec 22, 2019 4:48 pm So what is the Greta phenomenon all about?

Is it:

1. adult politicians dodging their own responsibility to take decisions?
2. Some dark forces using children for propaganda
3. Abusing young generations to advance own agenda because they are more prone to see the world black-and-white and so more easy to manipulate? Just like the advertising industry targets especially children in order to induce adults to buy and consume even more?

4. All of these three?
1 is obviously true. 2 isn't as simple as you word it. If I wanted to advocate changes in emissions due to air pollution, would mentioning child respiratory illness and mortality count as propaganda or essential information?

3. Children have always historically been the ones to see through the bullshit of older generations. It's always been that way. That's where counter culture and new music, fashion, art,literature etc comes from. Dismissing children as naive props completely overlooks the creative ways in which children and youth see the world. They are not yet bound by the same conditioning. Sure there can sometimes be naivety, but then adults have a lot of that too.
Greta Thunberg wins TIME Person of the Year: It’s a symptom of a sick & confused world when adults make children their leaders
So then why not listen to the adult scientists she is asking people to listen to instead? A 16 year old girl is hardly a todler. Kids are pretty informed now days and we really show our age when we assume they know nothing or have nothing to contribute. If it's a symptom of a sick world when adults make children their leaders then you must admit that she is a sign of remedial action since none of the current adults have been able to engage the public on the same scale, nor been able to speak so bluntly to world leaders about their failures, greenwashing and "creative PR" tactics.
Encouraging children to revolt against their irresponsible elders is the inevitable outcome of adult-blaming. That is why the head of politics at Cambridge University could call for children as young as six to be given the vote. .......
You know that society is in deep trouble when six-year-olds are assigned the responsibility for determining society’s future
I'm not really sure anyone is asking for the youth to revolt against adults, but rather become more politically active in demanding a future worth living from the adults who are compromising that. You can twist it any way you like but that children are becoming politically active makes a lot of sense considering the state of the world right now. Many of us grew up with the privilege of not needing to care about politics or be active until we were much older.

All of these side debates also detract from the very science Greta keeps asking people to focus on. It's that simple. She's not offering solutions but rather saying listen to those who have them and heavily scrutinize those politicians and structures who stand in the way of them. That message is no different to one coming from any rational adult, so diminishing the argument because it came from the mouth of a child is well...pretty childish.
Last edited by Vasana on Sun Dec 22, 2019 6:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Why Greta Thunberg Should Be Time’s Person of the Year

Post by tatpurusa »

Johnny Dangerous wrote: Sun Dec 22, 2019 6:21 pm .. to bland or whatever, really has zero to do with her message.
The point is exactly this: is it her message, or is it one that was given to her by some others with a certain agenda?
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Re: Why Greta Thunberg Should Be Time’s Person of the Year

Post by Vasana »

tatpurusa wrote: Sun Dec 22, 2019 6:31 pm
Johnny Dangerous wrote: Sun Dec 22, 2019 6:21 pm .. to bland or whatever, really has zero to do with her message.
The point is exactly this: is it her message, or is it one that was given to her by some others with a certain agenda?
Why not assess the merit of the message based on the science she references? If her message is in alignment with the recommendations of planetary system scienctists, then it should be heeded. Remember that many of these scientists are also explicitly pointing out the incompatibility of sustainability, current day political systems and capitalism.

So who's agenda you think she represents also heavily depends upon which of the scientists she references that you choose to ignore.
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Re: Why Greta Thunberg Should Be Time’s Person of the Year

Post by futerko »

I thought this was quite revealing, she is obviously very astute about the situation and this article seems to indicate to me that she has understood the same thing we all do when we leave behind our teenage protests and realise that blaming and trying to convince others is of limited use. Maybe she should now turn to address all the overly invested idealists who are still so insistent on using her as a tool for emotional manipulation?

https://www.rt.com/news/475244-greta-th ... d-nothing/
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Re: Why Greta Thunberg Should Be Time’s Person of the Year

Post by tatpurusa »

Vasana wrote: Sun Dec 22, 2019 6:28 pm She's not offering solutions but rather saying listen to those who have them and heavily scrutinize those politicians and structures who stand in the way of them.
This is exactly the definition of a propaganda vehicle.
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Re: Why Greta Thunberg Should Be Time’s Person of the Year

Post by Vasana »

Propaganda is usually characterized by omitting certain facts, misleading information, partisan, polticial affiliations, subjective bias etc.

An 'agenda' that is rooted in planetary system science isn't any of those things.
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