Abortion (as an example of problems caused by the common mindset in our society)

Casual conversation between friends. Anything goes (almost).
User avatar
Wayfarer
Former staff member
Posts: 5150
Joined: Sun May 27, 2012 8:31 am
Location: AU

Re: Abortion (as an example of problems caused by the common mindset in our society)

Post by Wayfarer »

I really don't understand why this is such an issue in America, in particular. Although I've recently learned that technically, abortion is actually illegal in the state of NSW where I live. But in practice it is legal, i.e. clinics are allowed to operate.

My personal view tends towards the conservative; I believe it is an individual's right to choose, but I also feel as though abortion is generally something to avoid, and certainly not something to be practiced casually so as to avoid the consequences of casual sexual relations.

I don't necessarily believe that a person's body is their own, although I can see the rationale of that from the perspective of liberal individualism. But if there is really no abiding self, then whose body is it? (Although I do notice that gender and sexual identity always seems to trump anatta in modern culture.)
'Only practice with no gaining idea' ~ Suzuki Roshi
Nicholas Weeks
Posts: 4207
Joined: Mon Apr 06, 2009 4:21 am
Location: California

Re: Abortion (as an example of problems caused by the common mindset in our society)

Post by Nicholas Weeks »

Queequeg wrote: Wed May 15, 2019 9:16 pm
The alternative [overturning R vs W] will be a major upheaval.
Not really, just more of what many states are doing now. When R vs W is overturned that only means that each state will determine their legal position on human life in the womb. No nation wide law as today.

Most legal folks expect it to be overturned in the next several years. So each state, liberalish, conservativeish or just wishy is designing laws now to reflect their voters majority view.

The truly dedicated single-issue types may cause a minor upheaval by moving to or from a state whose laws they can or cannot abide.
May all seek, find & follow the Path of Buddhas.
User avatar
PeterC
Posts: 2917
Joined: Tue May 20, 2014 12:38 pm

Re: Abortion (as an example of problems caused by the common mindset in our society)

Post by PeterC »

The odds are that RvW will be overturned. There has always been at least a minority on SCOTUS that never agreed with its legal premise (that a right to privacy which extends to one's body can be found in the 'emanations and penumbras' of the constitution, and that that can somehow translate into drawing a line during pregnancy): and there has always been a vocal minority of voters who will never agree with abortion no matter what.

The absence of RvW is not that abortion is illegal, it is that states may decide to make it illegal. Many states will not. Losing decisions such as RvW will deepen the split between the states.

I suspect that the overturning of RvW will also be an important nail in the coffin of SCOTUS itself. The legislative agenda for years has been for conservative states to pass aggressive anti-abortion bills that get appealed to SCOTUS, providing an opportunity to overturn the decision. However what Alabama just did basically blew up that strategy. They thought it was just about votes on the court. They passed an outrageous law and justified it publicly in religious terms. They didn't provide a convenient legal fiction for the court to revisit the decision: they basically said, now we've got Gorsuch and Kavanaugh we don't give a shit, they'll support whatever we send them. Which is...not totally true. Roberts cares profoundly about the status and legacy of the court, and he must be feeling pretty bad about that in the past few years as it's become increasingly politicized. For that reason, a challenge based on the Alabama law might not have his vote, even if he thinks that RvW was not properly decided. Alito, Kavanaugh and Thomas are reliable votes. Gorsuch I'm not so sure about. He has a very good legal mind, and interestingly he has not been a completely reliable conservative vote since being appointed. He might agree with the intent but disagree with how Alabama are going about it. But ultimately if the Alabama law doesn't do it, a more considered and tailored challenge will be brought, one that Roberts and Gorsuch can get behind. And unless Trump loses in 2020, there's a very high chance that he'll be appointing another judge, as RBG can't hang on forever. Imagine that - the worst president that anyone can remember might get to appoint a third of the supreme court.
User avatar
justsit
Posts: 1181
Joined: Wed Oct 21, 2009 9:24 pm
Location: Delaware

Re: Abortion (as an example of problems caused by the common mindset in our society)

Post by justsit »

Wayfarer wrote: Thu May 16, 2019 12:31 am I really don't understand why this is such an issue in America, in particular.
America operates on an underlying basis of Puritan morality, in which the totally natural human sex drive is subverted as dirty and immoral. This leads to the schizoid behaviors wherein we give lip service to so-called "Christian values" and yet have a multi billion dollar porn industry operating side by side. In general, Americans have a very adolescent attitude about sex. I saw a French TV commercial for condoms in which a cartoon penis chased cartoon vaginas across a room, only to be rejected for not wearing a condom; it will be a cold day in hell before something like that shows up on American TV.

As usual, health care restriction will have the deepest impact on poor and minority women who cannot afford to travel for care. And as Congress has seen fit to restrict funding for Planned Parenthood (gee, we don't want THAT, do we!), birth control is less available; it is also not covered by some insurance plans. Unwanted children just prolong the cycle of poverty, incidence of child abuse and domestic violence rises, etc. Protests against sex education in schools mean ignorance continues to be perpetuated. And the cycle goes around again.
mirrormind
Posts: 26
Joined: Thu Mar 26, 2015 1:21 pm

Re: Abortion (as an example of problems caused by the common mindset in our society)

Post by mirrormind »

Nemo wrote: Wed May 15, 2019 7:04 pm
Men Cause 100% of Unwanted Pregnancies.https://medium.com/s/can-we-talk/men-ca ... ocJAINWD9E
What is the alternative to pro-choice? Forcing a woman to carry a child to term? Women through the ages have gone to great lengths to get an abortion, the need for the procedure is undeniable.

Physiologically we are just apes driven by sex hormones, the effect of testosterone being particularly strong in this regard. Birth control taken by women is fantastically convenient for men. No consequence on health, libido, feeling (except for your partner not feeling like it).

If birth control fails for whatever reason, forcing a woman to go through a pregnancy is a violence. Having something grow inside one’s body and being awash with hormones can be a prolonged state of horror. In this regard pregnancies are very much like sex: it can be the best or the worst experience depending on whether it is wanted or forced.

With unwanted pregnancies there’s generally no pretty solution—whether an unwanted, adopted, neglected child or an early termination. What to do if you don’t want to carry the load of shooting the load?

Samsara is messy by design. What is so great about being born in this world? Buddhism is not humanism. Not every life is precious.
You can't think your way out of samsara.
User avatar
Queequeg
Former staff member
Posts: 11497
Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2012 3:24 pm

Re: Abortion (as an example of problems caused by the common mindset in our society)

Post by Queequeg »

PeterC wrote: Thu May 16, 2019 7:12 am The odds are that RvW will be overturned. There has always been at least a minority on SCOTUS that never agreed with its legal premise (that a right to privacy which extends to one's body can be found in the 'emanations and penumbras' of the constitution, and that that can somehow translate into drawing a line during pregnancy): and there has always been a vocal minority of voters who will never agree with abortion no matter what.

The absence of RvW is not that abortion is illegal, it is that states may decide to make it illegal. Many states will not. Losing decisions such as RvW will deepen the split between the states.

I suspect that the overturning of RvW will also be an important nail in the coffin of SCOTUS itself. The legislative agenda for years has been for conservative states to pass aggressive anti-abortion bills that get appealed to SCOTUS, providing an opportunity to overturn the decision. However what Alabama just did basically blew up that strategy. They thought it was just about votes on the court. They passed an outrageous law and justified it publicly in religious terms. They didn't provide a convenient legal fiction for the court to revisit the decision: they basically said, now we've got Gorsuch and Kavanaugh we don't give a shit, they'll support whatever we send them. Which is...not totally true. Roberts cares profoundly about the status and legacy of the court, and he must be feeling pretty bad about that in the past few years as it's become increasingly politicized. For that reason, a challenge based on the Alabama law might not have his vote, even if he thinks that RvW was not properly decided. Alito, Kavanaugh and Thomas are reliable votes. Gorsuch I'm not so sure about. He has a very good legal mind, and interestingly he has not been a completely reliable conservative vote since being appointed. He might agree with the intent but disagree with how Alabama are going about it. But ultimately if the Alabama law doesn't do it, a more considered and tailored challenge will be brought, one that Roberts and Gorsuch can get behind. And unless Trump loses in 2020, there's a very high chance that he'll be appointing another judge, as RBG can't hang on forever. Imagine that - the worst president that anyone can remember might get to appoint a third of the supreme court.
Overturning the right to privacy would mean overturning Griswold v. Connecticut (which is where the penumbra of rights was first invoked, iirc). That would mean an end to family planning in any context other than abstinence or some other primitive method (pulling out, timing). Even condoms could be outlawed.

I don't see the right to privacy getting overturned at this point. That's why the current batch of laws are addressed to establishing personhood. If there is a person in the womb, then it has rights that compete with the woman's right to privacy, and who's going to argue that a right to privacy is more important that a person's right to live?

Roberts is definitely not going to get rid of the right to privacy. There's a lot of reason to believe that Kavanaugh is a lot more pragmatic than you're giving him credit for. I'm actually inclined to think Gorsuch with his Ned Flanders schtick may be more doctrinaire and inclined to get rid of the right to privacy.

We will see.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Upaya Chapter

純一実相。実相外。更無別法。法性寂然名止。寂而常渉照名観。
There is only reality; there is nothing separate from reality. The naturally tranquil nature of dharmas is shamatha. The abiding luminosity of tranquility is vipashyana.

-From Guanding's Introduction to Zhiyi's Great Shamatha and Vipashyana
User avatar
PeterC
Posts: 2917
Joined: Tue May 20, 2014 12:38 pm

Re: Abortion (as an example of problems caused by the common mindset in our society)

Post by PeterC »

Queequeg wrote: Thu May 16, 2019 6:35 pm
Overturning the right to privacy would mean overturning Griswold v. Connecticut (which is where the penumbra of rights was first invoked, iirc). That would mean an end to family planning in any context other than abstinence or some other primitive method (pulling out, timing). Even condoms could be outlawed.

I don't see the right to privacy getting overturned at this point. That's why the current batch of laws are addressed to establishing personhood. If there is a person in the womb, then it has rights that compete with the woman's right to privacy, and who's going to argue that a right to privacy is more important that a person's right to live?

Roberts is definitely not going to get rid of the right to privacy. There's a lot of reason to believe that Kavanaugh is a lot more pragmatic than you're giving him credit for. I'm actually inclined to think Gorsuch with his Ned Flanders schtick may be more doctrinaire and inclined to get rid of the right to privacy.

We will see.
You’re right - it was Douglas writing for the majority in Griswold that first used that term.

There’s clearly a minority of the court that has never been ok with the right to privacy theory. See Thomas’ dissent in Lawrence v Texas, for instance. Alito is in the same camp, and we can assume Kavanaugh will be too. Roberts has never liked it as a theory but he does care about stare decisis, and fundamentally I think that’s what it’s all about.

The last Scotus case on RvW, PP v Casey, was basically one big fight about the role of stare decisis - and this also spilled over into other social issue cases such as marriage equality, where the conservative wing accused their colleagues of only caring about stare decisis when the liked the status quo.

What is clear is that the current conservative wing of the court really doesn’t attach much importance to the principle, particularly when looking at issues which they feel ought to be settled by legislatures and not courts. This last term has seen them toss out several long-establishes precedents with little concern. I don’t think Roberts is generally ok with with this, as he does care about how history will view his court, and this sort of thing will be seen as bad. I suspect Gorsuch is in the same camp - I actually think Gorsuch has the potential, on many issues, to be a pretty good justice. He might not agree with the theory of privacy but he will give it fair consideration and will be cautious about overturning established precedent when that would have far-reaching implications.

I do, to some degree, sympathize with the Thomas view of this problem, that it’s one of a class of problems that should never have been addressed by the courts. There’s nothing in the constitution saying that society can’t pass laws restricting abortion, or ensuring access to abortion. The abortion ‘debate’ is first and foremost a failure of legislative/electoral politics. The vast majority of the country thinks that it should be accessible to all. A vocal minority disagree. A properly functioning electoral system would produce a legislature that passes laws to make it accessible. Perhaps, to take this line of thinking a little further, what’s happening now is actually the right outcome: the dumb states pass laws restricting it, because that’s what their electoral system wants, and the less-unenlightened states pass laws liberalizing it: then citizens choose where to live based on this and other factors.
User avatar
Queequeg
Former staff member
Posts: 11497
Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2012 3:24 pm

Re: Abortion (as an example of problems caused by the common mindset in our society)

Post by Queequeg »

I hope you're right about Gorsuch. There's always hope that the new justices nominated to be conservatives will turn out to be more interesting than that. Like Souter. Until Kavanaugh and Gorsuch have a few years we won't know.

I pretty much agree with your comments on Roe. I think they used the heavy hand because its not so easy for women to up and move, or even travel to get abortions. People tend to suffer where they stand rather than try to go someplace where they can breathe. And the ones who do are a different cut of person.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Upaya Chapter

純一実相。実相外。更無別法。法性寂然名止。寂而常渉照名観。
There is only reality; there is nothing separate from reality. The naturally tranquil nature of dharmas is shamatha. The abiding luminosity of tranquility is vipashyana.

-From Guanding's Introduction to Zhiyi's Great Shamatha and Vipashyana
User avatar
PeterC
Posts: 2917
Joined: Tue May 20, 2014 12:38 pm

Re: Abortion (as an example of problems caused by the common mindset in our society)

Post by PeterC »

Queequeg wrote: Fri May 17, 2019 1:27 pm I hope you're right about Gorsuch. There's always hope that the new justices nominated to be conservatives will turn out to be more interesting than that. Like Souter. Until Kavanaugh and Gorsuch have a few years we won't know.
I'm going to quote a little bit of a recent concurrence in part dissent in part by Gorsuch which shows why I have hope for him. I suspect that under it all, he's actually a decent person.

From https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/1 ... 4_m5o1.pdf
Both sides accept that an officer violates the First Amendment when he arrests an individual in retaliation for his protected speech. They seem to agree, too, that the presence of probable cause does not undo that violation or erase its significance. And for good reason. History shows that governments sometimes seek to regulate our lives finely, acutely, thoroughly, and exhaustively. In our own time and place, criminal laws have grown so exuberantly and come to cover so much previously innocent conduct that almost anyone can be arrested for something. If the state could use these laws not for their intended purposes but to silence those who voice unpopular ideas, little would be left of our First Amendment liberties, and little would separate us from the tyrannies of the past or the malignant fiefdoms of our own age. The freedom to speak without risking arrest is “one of the principal characteristics by which we distinguish a free nation.”
Nicholas Weeks
Posts: 4207
Joined: Mon Apr 06, 2009 4:21 am
Location: California

Re: Abortion (as an example of problems caused by the common mindset in our society)

Post by Nicholas Weeks »

Image
May all seek, find & follow the Path of Buddhas.
User avatar
SunWuKong
Posts: 636
Joined: Mon Nov 06, 2017 11:15 pm
Location: Alexandria, Virginia, USA
Contact:

Re: Precious human Life

Post by SunWuKong »

Nicholas Weeks wrote: Thu May 30, 2019 7:14 pm Image
When I suggested men play a role in how these pregnancies start, in how families are formed and supported, and in men's responsibility towards their own offspring, here on DW, i was shouted down. Even though i agree with you on rights of unborn, i find this blindness to reality and inability to listen to reason why Pro-Life messages are normally shrill and misguided. The ball is in your court on this.
"We are magical animals that roam" ~ Roam
Nicholas Weeks
Posts: 4207
Joined: Mon Apr 06, 2009 4:21 am
Location: California

Re: Precious human Life

Post by Nicholas Weeks »

SunWuKong wrote: Thu May 30, 2019 10:08 pm
When I suggested men play a role in how these pregnancies start, in how families are formed and supported, and in men's responsibility towards their own offspring, here on DW, i was shouted down. Even though i agree with you on rights of unborn, i find this blindness to reality and inability to listen to reason why Pro-Life messages are normally shrill and misguided. The ball is in your court on this.
I did not read your posts earlier, and if you think this ethical situation can be reasoned about or debated as if it is a game - doubt I will pay you much mind.
May all seek, find & follow the Path of Buddhas.
User avatar
SunWuKong
Posts: 636
Joined: Mon Nov 06, 2017 11:15 pm
Location: Alexandria, Virginia, USA
Contact:

Re: Precious human Life

Post by SunWuKong »

Nicholas Weeks wrote: Thu May 30, 2019 10:18 pm
SunWuKong wrote: Thu May 30, 2019 10:08 pm
When I suggested men play a role in how these pregnancies start, in how families are formed and supported, and in men's responsibility towards their own offspring, here on DW, i was shouted down. Even though i agree with you on rights of unborn, i find this blindness to reality and inability to listen to reason why Pro-Life messages are normally shrill and misguided. The ball is in your court on this.
I did not read your posts earlier, and if you think this ethical situation can be reasoned about or debated as if it is a game - doubt I will pay you much mind.
No, actually it’s a policy issue I support to make parents responsible for their genetic offspring regardless of marital status, in the form of paternity law and maternity law. Most of the people I personally know are enthusiastic about it when I’m given the chance to explain. Like me they are anti-abortion but also against criminalization of it.

I’m sorry that you are jumping to conclusions and judging me for taking the chance to have my voice heard as well as yours. If you have concrete proposals to help solve this problem that aren’t inflammatory and provocative, actual positive ideas, feel free to share those. Like you, I’m not interested in playing games.
"We are magical animals that roam" ~ Roam
Nicholas Weeks
Posts: 4207
Joined: Mon Apr 06, 2009 4:21 am
Location: California

Re: Abortion (as an example of problems caused by the common mindset in our society)

Post by Nicholas Weeks »

Sun - "it’s a policy issue I support to make parents responsible for their genetic offspring regardless of marital status, in the form of paternity law and maternity law."

Good luck, but as the old saw goes "Morality cannot be legislated." Therefore it is not a 'policy issue'.
May all seek, find & follow the Path of Buddhas.
User avatar
SunWuKong
Posts: 636
Joined: Mon Nov 06, 2017 11:15 pm
Location: Alexandria, Virginia, USA
Contact:

Re: Abortion (as an example of problems caused by the common mindset in our society)

Post by SunWuKong »

Nicholas Weeks wrote: Fri May 31, 2019 2:47 am Sun - "it’s a policy issue I support to make parents responsible for their genetic offspring regardless of marital status, in the form of paternity law and maternity law."

Good luck, but as the old saw goes "Morality cannot be legislated." Therefore it is not a 'policy issue'.
I'm not planning to legislate morality. I'm suggesting re-legislating the child support payments, supported by mandatory DNA testing. That is what I mean by policy.
"We are magical animals that roam" ~ Roam
User avatar
Grigoris
Former staff member
Posts: 21590
Joined: Fri May 14, 2010 9:27 pm
Location: Greece

Re: Abortion (as an example of problems caused by the common mindset in our society)

Post by Grigoris »

If as Buddhist males we are serious about ending termination of pregnancy, since we believe it goes against the first precept, then as Buddhists we have to analyse cause and effect.

If you want to end something, you need to uproot it's causes.

We have to:

Take responsibility about how we use our cocks.
Demand free and efficient birth control (this includes putting money into further R&D for birth control).
Ensure intelligent and satisfactory sex education for children, at all stages of their development, including and during the period when they become sexually active.
Normalise the individual's right to engage in homosexual activity (social and sexual activity).
Ensure that our societies are structured to give women complete equality and economic freedom.
Provide satisfactory state funded child and family allowances/benefits.
Ensure paid maternity leave and free child-minding services.
Destroy patriarchal power structures so that women are never coerced into sex, or raped.
Ensure that there are laws in place so that men pay satisfactory child maintenance and are punished if they do not.
Have satisfactory services in place for the care and adoption of orphans.

If we do these things (and this list is hideously incomplete), then there will be no need to debate pro-choice, as there will be no (or REALLY limited) need for women to terminate pregnancies.

Until then, women must have the right to decide whether they wish to give birth or terminate a pregnancy AND men have to stop pointing their fingers at women and point them at their own crotch.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
User avatar
Dechen Norbu
Posts: 2986
Joined: Sat Mar 26, 2011 6:50 pm

Re: Abortion (as an example of problems caused by the common mindset in our society)

Post by Dechen Norbu »

Grigoris wrote: Wed Jun 05, 2019 2:51 pm If as Buddhist males we are serious about ending termination of pregnancy, since we believe it goes against the first precept, then as Buddhists we have to analyse cause and effect.

If you want to end something, you need to uproot it's causes.

We have to:

Take responsibility about how we use our cocks.
Demand free and efficient birth control (this includes putting money into further R&D for birth control).
Ensure intelligent and satisfactory sex education for children, at all stages of their development, including and during the period when they become sexually active.
Normalise the individual's right to engage in homosexual activity (social and sexual activity).
Ensure that our societies are structured to give women complete equality and economic freedom.
Provide satisfactory state funded child and family allowances/benefits.
Ensure paid maternity leave and free child-minding services.
Destroy patriarchal power structures so that women are never coerced into sex, or raped.
Ensure that there are laws in place so that men pay satisfactory child maintenance and are punished if they do not.
Have satisfactory services in place for the care and adoption of orphans.

If we do these things (and this list is hideously incomplete), then there will be no need to debate pro-choice, as there will be no (or REALLY limited) need for women to terminate pregnancies.

Until then, women must have the right to decide whether they wish to give birth or terminate a pregnancy AND men have to stop pointing their fingers at women and point them at their own crotch.
That would all be excellent. But if you look at the numbers, in Sweden the most common motive for abortion is simply delaying motherhood. We can't pretend looking at a fetus as a tumor of sorts pays no role in this.
It also doesn't help having young ladies going out at night, drinking themselves blind and not even knowing who they frak the day after.
So, yes, I agree with those measures, but seems to me you want to dump responsibility on men, but then take away their right to have a word about the matter...
User avatar
Grigoris
Former staff member
Posts: 21590
Joined: Fri May 14, 2010 9:27 pm
Location: Greece

Re: Abortion (as an example of problems caused by the common mindset in our society)

Post by Grigoris »

Dechen Norbu wrote: Wed Jun 05, 2019 5:05 pmThat would all be excellent. But if you look at the numbers, in Sweden the most common motive for abortion is simply delaying motherhood.
Demand free and efficient birth control (this includes putting money into further R&D for birth control).
We can't pretend looking at a fetus as a tumor of sorts pays no role in this.
I guess you completely missed the entire point of my post.
It also doesn't help having young ladies going out at night, drinking themselves blind and not even knowing who they frak the day after.
Take responsibility about how we use our cocks.
So, yes, I agree with those measures, but seems to me you want to dump responsibility on men...
Given it is only men discussing this issue, in this thread, I thought it would be a good idea to talk about what men should do.
...but then take away their right to have a word about the matter...
I guess you completely missed the entire point of my post.

This discussion is about putting an end to the medical practice of the termination of pregnancy, I just showed how to end the need for it.

Do you have a better idea, or do you just want to keep blaming women?
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
User avatar
Dechen Norbu
Posts: 2986
Joined: Sat Mar 26, 2011 6:50 pm

Re: Abortion (as an example of problems caused by the common mindset in our society)

Post by Dechen Norbu »

Don't be an ass. I never only blamed women.
I must have missed the point of your post then, cuz it looked men blaming to me.
User avatar
Grigoris
Former staff member
Posts: 21590
Joined: Fri May 14, 2010 9:27 pm
Location: Greece

Re: Abortion (as an example of problems caused by the common mindset in our society)

Post by Grigoris »

Dechen Norbu wrote: Wed Jun 05, 2019 5:35 pm Don't be an ass. I never only blamed women.
I must have missed the point of your post then, cuz it looked men blaming to me.
Let me give you an example to help clarify my point: If a young woman is so drunk that she will be incapable of remembering who she had sex with when she wakes up the next morning, then it is the man's responsibility to put aside his predatory instincts and not have sex with her; possibly even protect her from other less savory characters. Why? Because clearly she is incapable of giving any real consent and so it would be sexual misconduct to have sex with her; or in the parlance of secular law: Rape.
...cuz it looked men blaming to me.
Looks like you are getting a little too sensitive in your old age! :tongue:

Welcome back, by the way.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
Locked

Return to “Lounge”