Why don't "enlightened masters" work together?

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paradox524
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Why don't "enlightened masters" work together?

Post by paradox524 »

Outside of a hierarchical relationship of teacher to student, it seems interesting that even within traditions like Buddhism, let alone across them, that the enlightened masters do not work together. They by and large do not do joint projects or conferences or anything.

And historically this seems to be the case too. Masters are, seemingly, lone wolves.

Why do you think that is?
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Queequeg
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Re: Why don't "enlightened masters" work together?

Post by Queequeg »

After his enlightenment, the Buddha had this thought:
Then he thought: "I could live under another monk or brahman and respecting him in order to perfect an unperfected code of virtue or code of concentration or code of understanding or code of deliverance or code of knowledge and vision of deliverance. But I do not see in this world with its deities, its Maras and its divinities, in this generation with its monks and brahmans, with its princes and men, any monk or brahman in whom these things are more perfected than in myself under whom I could live, honouring and respecting him. But there is this Dhamma discovered by me—suppose I lived under that, honouring and respecting that?"
Before his enlightenment, the Buddha had two teachers, Alara Kalama and Udakka Ramaputta. When he was Alara Kalama's student, he quickly penetrated Alara Kalama's teaching and Alara Kalama recognized him. He invited Gautama to share his seat and teach the assembly, but Gautama declined, concluding that Alara Kalama's teaching did not lead to cessation. Gautama then followed Udakka Ramaputta. Gautama quickly penetrated his teaching and Udakka Ramaputta actually offered to let Gautama take over the assembly, ostensibly so he could go off and practice. Gautama declined concluing that Udakka Ramaputta's teaching did not lead to cessation.

Later, after his awakening, when the Buddha resolved to teach, he considered who he should share his insight with first, who would understand. First he thought of Alara Kalama, but perceived that he had already passed away. Then he thought of Udakka Ramaputta, but perceived that he had passed away, too. The Buddha then resolved to go to the 5 ascetics and teach them.

Later, as his disciples became arhats, they were equal to him - they were arhats like him. They were dispatched to go and teach broadly.

Down through the present, I don't think its the case that enlightened masters don't work with each other. I actually think the record is otherwise.

It is probably actually the case that if "enlightened" masters are not working together, one or more of them are not enlightened.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Upaya Chapter

純一実相。実相外。更無別法。法性寂然名止。寂而常渉照名観。
There is only reality; there is nothing separate from reality. The naturally tranquil nature of dharmas is shamatha. The abiding luminosity of tranquility is vipashyana.

-From Guanding's Introduction to Zhiyi's Great Shamatha and Vipashyana
paradox524
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Re: Why don't "enlightened masters" work together?

Post by paradox524 »

Queequeg wrote: Mon Feb 25, 2019 5:53 pm Down through the present, I don't think its the case that enlightened masters don't work with each other. I actually think the record is otherwise.

It is probably actually the case that if "enlightened" masters are not working together, one or more of them are not enlightened.
But based on your own examples, the Buddha didn't work with either of his two teachers, and his only relationships were to his own disciples. And even to those arhats they went off to other places to teach. I wouldn't exactly call that working together.

What I was asking about, though, was non teacher-disciple collaborations.
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Grigoris
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Re: Why don't "enlightened masters" work together?

Post by Grigoris »

I think you are mistaken. Many teachers work together both within and across traditions and even with other non-Buddhist teachers.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
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Ayu
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Re: Why don't "enlightened masters" work together?

Post by Ayu »

Grigoris wrote: Tue Feb 26, 2019 8:33 am I think you are mistaken. Many teachers work together both within and across traditions and even with other non-Buddhist teachers.
:good:
This is exactly what I wanted to say. It's often a mistake to confuse the followers with the master.
For the benefit and ease of all sentient beings. :heart:
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Queequeg
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Re: Why don't "enlightened masters" work together?

Post by Queequeg »

paradox524 wrote: Tue Feb 26, 2019 5:27 am
Queequeg wrote: Mon Feb 25, 2019 5:53 pm Down through the present, I don't think its the case that enlightened masters don't work with each other. I actually think the record is otherwise.

It is probably actually the case that if "enlightened" masters are not working together, one or more of them are not enlightened.
But based on your own examples, the Buddha didn't work with either of his two teachers, and his only relationships were to his own disciples. And even to those arhats they went off to other places to teach. I wouldn't exactly call that working together.

What I was asking about, though, was non teacher-disciple collaborations.
That is an awfully willful misinterpretation of what I wrote.

You should go an look into the stories I referenced.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Upaya Chapter

純一実相。実相外。更無別法。法性寂然名止。寂而常渉照名観。
There is only reality; there is nothing separate from reality. The naturally tranquil nature of dharmas is shamatha. The abiding luminosity of tranquility is vipashyana.

-From Guanding's Introduction to Zhiyi's Great Shamatha and Vipashyana
paradox524
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Re: Why don't "enlightened masters" work together?

Post by paradox524 »

Grigoris wrote: Tue Feb 26, 2019 8:33 am I think you are mistaken. Many teachers work together both within and across traditions and even with other non-Buddhist teachers.
Have any examples of recognized, enlightened masters working with each other across traditions?
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Ayu
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Re: Why don't "enlightened masters" work together?

Post by Ayu »

paradox524 wrote: Tue Feb 26, 2019 2:14 pm
Grigoris wrote: Tue Feb 26, 2019 8:33 am I think you are mistaken. Many teachers work together both within and across traditions and even with other non-Buddhist teachers.
Have any examples of recognized, enlightened masters working with each other across traditions?
https://www.dalailama.com/search/result ... rs&x=0&y=0
For the benefit and ease of all sentient beings. :heart:
paradox524
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Re: Why don't "enlightened masters" work together?

Post by paradox524 »

Ayu wrote: Tue Feb 26, 2019 3:36 pm
paradox524 wrote: Tue Feb 26, 2019 2:14 pm
Grigoris wrote: Tue Feb 26, 2019 8:33 am I think you are mistaken. Many teachers work together both within and across traditions and even with other non-Buddhist teachers.
Have any examples of recognized, enlightened masters working with each other across traditions?
https://www.dalailama.com/search/result ... rs&x=0&y=0
Interfaith meetings are quite different. They are about the heads of different religious traditions talking with each other about religious tolerance. Most of these leaders are not enlightened and many or most do not even believe in the idea of it.

I am talking about masters across traditions who believe in the idea of liberation, are recognized for having achieved it, and meet and work together with that as the context.
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Grigoris
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Re: Why don't "enlightened masters" work together?

Post by Grigoris »

paradox524 wrote: Tue Feb 26, 2019 3:44 pm
Ayu wrote: Tue Feb 26, 2019 3:36 pm
paradox524 wrote: Tue Feb 26, 2019 2:14 pm

Have any examples of recognized, enlightened masters working with each other across traditions?
https://www.dalailama.com/search/result ... rs&x=0&y=0
Interfaith meetings are quite different. They are about the heads of different religious traditions talking with each other about religious tolerance. Most of these leaders are not enlightened and many or most do not even believe in the idea of it.

I am talking about masters across traditions who believe in the idea of liberation, are recognized for having achieved it, and meet and work together with that as the context.
Why don't you definer "work together" and enlightened masters" so we can answer your question.

it seems to me that you are not interested in honest answers but, just saying...
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
paradox524
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Re: Why don't "enlightened masters" work together?

Post by paradox524 »

Grigoris wrote: Tue Feb 26, 2019 5:30 pm
paradox524 wrote: Tue Feb 26, 2019 3:44 pm
Interfaith meetings are quite different. They are about the heads of different religious traditions talking with each other about religious tolerance. Most of these leaders are not enlightened and many or most do not even believe in the idea of it.

I am talking about masters across traditions who believe in the idea of liberation, are recognized for having achieved it, and meet and work together with that as the context.
Why don't you definer "work together" and enlightened masters" so we can answer your question.

it seems to me that you are not interested in honest answers but, just saying...
I just defined it above. Did you not see my sentence starting with "I am talking about..."?
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Queequeg
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Re: Why don't "enlightened masters" work together?

Post by Queequeg »

paradox524 wrote: Tue Feb 26, 2019 3:44 pm I am talking about masters across traditions who believe in the idea of liberation, are recognized for having achieved it, and meet and work together with that as the context.
Let's make one thing clear - only buddha is fully awakened. If a being is fully liberated, then they speak with the one voice of the buddhas.

You're presuming a lot before you even ask your question. You might need to back up and figure out what you are asking first.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Upaya Chapter

純一実相。実相外。更無別法。法性寂然名止。寂而常渉照名観。
There is only reality; there is nothing separate from reality. The naturally tranquil nature of dharmas is shamatha. The abiding luminosity of tranquility is vipashyana.

-From Guanding's Introduction to Zhiyi's Great Shamatha and Vipashyana
paradox524
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Re: Why don't "enlightened masters" work together?

Post by paradox524 »

Queequeg wrote: Tue Feb 26, 2019 6:19 pm
paradox524 wrote: Tue Feb 26, 2019 3:44 pm I am talking about masters across traditions who believe in the idea of liberation, are recognized for having achieved it, and meet and work together with that as the context.
Let's make one thing clear - only buddha is fully awakened. If a being is fully liberated, then they speak with the one voice of the buddhas.

You're presuming a lot before you even ask your question. You might need to back up and figure out what you are asking first.
I'm honestly not sure what is so confusing about this.

Let me give an example from the Jain tradition: according to them, Buddha and Mahavira met, sized each other up, recognized each other's attainments, agreed that they had nothing to teach or learn from each other, and moved on.

That would be a meeting of two recognized, respected enlightened masters -- people who believed in the possibility of liberation and were believed to have achieved it. Did this meeting actually happen? Who knows.

But if they had, instead of moving on, say, worked together to help others spiritually, perhaps by teaching together, for example, that would have been an example of what I'm talking about.
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Queequeg
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Re: Why don't "enlightened masters" work together?

Post by Queequeg »

Wrong forum, friend.

The Buddha considered the Jains to have wrong view.

There is no such story of a meeting of Mahavira in the Buddhist canon. That kind of perrenialism is not shared.

Among the Buddha's followers, cooperation among realized beings is common.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Upaya Chapter

純一実相。実相外。更無別法。法性寂然名止。寂而常渉照名観。
There is only reality; there is nothing separate from reality. The naturally tranquil nature of dharmas is shamatha. The abiding luminosity of tranquility is vipashyana.

-From Guanding's Introduction to Zhiyi's Great Shamatha and Vipashyana
paradox524
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Re: Why don't "enlightened masters" work together?

Post by paradox524 »

Queequeg wrote: Tue Feb 26, 2019 6:45 pm Wrong forum, friend.

The Buddha considered the Jains to have wrong view.

There is no such story of a meeting of Mahavira in the Buddhist canon. That kind of perrenialism is not shared.

Among the Buddha's followers, cooperation among realized beings is common.
Ok. How about across Buddhist schools?

Do we have examples of, for example, acknowledged Dzogchen masters working with acknowledged Zen masters in a spiritual context? And if so, can you actually provide specific examples?
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Queequeg
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Re: Why don't "enlightened masters" work together?

Post by Queequeg »

paradox524 wrote: Tue Feb 26, 2019 6:51 pm
Queequeg wrote: Tue Feb 26, 2019 6:45 pm Wrong forum, friend.

The Buddha considered the Jains to have wrong view.

There is no such story of a meeting of Mahavira in the Buddhist canon. That kind of perrenialism is not shared.

Among the Buddha's followers, cooperation among realized beings is common.
Ok. How about across Buddhist schools?

Do we have examples of, for example, acknowledged Dzogchen masters working with acknowledged Zen masters in a spiritual context? And if so, can you actually provide specific examples?
In general, I think you find many examples of cross tradition cooperation. These days I think this is found in robust inter-tradition dialogues and shared celebrations - go to Bodhgaya and see all the people at the Bodhi tree.

As for your specific question about Zen and Dzogchen masters working together... Seems to me, people are still feeling each other out. Its only in the last century or so that the many Buddhist traditions have had direct encounters with each other. We've all been developing in parallel without much discussion with each other for a long time. We have a lot of differences in terminology and practices that we need to figure out how they relate to each other.

That said, I don't see any real obstacle intrinsic to Buddhadharma that will prevent all of us who have taken refuge from coming together eventually into one grand sangha. There are of course all those personalities that could get in the way. But, these are the tribulations of unenlightened beings.

Buddhadharma has one flavor.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Upaya Chapter

純一実相。実相外。更無別法。法性寂然名止。寂而常渉照名観。
There is only reality; there is nothing separate from reality. The naturally tranquil nature of dharmas is shamatha. The abiding luminosity of tranquility is vipashyana.

-From Guanding's Introduction to Zhiyi's Great Shamatha and Vipashyana
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Re: Why don't "enlightened masters" work together?

Post by Ayu »

paradox524 wrote: Tue Feb 26, 2019 3:44 pm
Ayu wrote: Tue Feb 26, 2019 3:36 pm
paradox524 wrote: Tue Feb 26, 2019 2:14 pm

Have any examples of recognized, enlightened masters working with each other across traditions?
https://www.dalailama.com/search/result ... rs&x=0&y=0
Interfaith meetings are quite different. They are about the heads of different religious traditions talking with each other about religious tolerance. Most of these leaders are not enlightened and many or most do not even believe in the idea of it.

I am talking about masters across traditions who believe in the idea of liberation, are recognized for having achieved it, and meet and work together with that as the context.
You asume, the HHDL does not meet and talk to leaders of other Buddhist traditions? Why do you think this? It's wrong.

Can you please give an example, a proof, of an enlightened Buddhist leader who does avoid contacts to enlightened Buddhist leaders of other traditions?

I remember the Dalai Lama talking about his meeting with Buddhadasa Bhikkhu in the nineteenhundred-fifties. HHDL spoke with deep respect and love about Buddhadasa. On those levels these stupid inter-tradition fights do not exist.


And btw: enlightened activity for the benefit of the beings works quite secretly most of the time. You wouldn't find much about the work of enlightened beings on the internet. :lol:
So, how do you want to prove your thesis?
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paradox524
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Re: Why don't "enlightened masters" work together?

Post by paradox524 »

Ayu wrote: Tue Feb 26, 2019 7:37 pm
paradox524 wrote: Tue Feb 26, 2019 3:44 pm
Interfaith meetings are quite different. They are about the heads of different religious traditions talking with each other about religious tolerance. Most of these leaders are not enlightened and many or most do not even believe in the idea of it.

I am talking about masters across traditions who believe in the idea of liberation, are recognized for having achieved it, and meet and work together with that as the context.
You asume, the HHDL does not meet and talk to leaders of other Buddhist traditions? Why do you think this? It's wrong.

Can you please give an example, a proof, of an enlightened Buddhist leader who does avoid contacts to enlightened Buddhist leaders of other traditions?

I remember the Dalai Lama talking about his meeting with Buddhadasa Bhikkhu in the nineteenhundred-fifties. HHDL spoke with deep respect and love about Buddhadasa. On those levels these stupid inter-tradition fights do not exist.


And btw: enlightened activity for the benefit of the beings work quite secretly most of the time. You wouldn,t find much about the work of enlightened beings i the internet. :lol:
So, how do you want to prove your thesis?
That's a bizarre request. Why would I attempt to prove it, as if it's some mathematical point? My point is not that it couldn't happen, it's that it hardly ever seems to, and I was asking for insight about why.

Your single example is one meeting 70 years ago. That says a lot.

Do you actually have examples of the Dalai Lama, for example, meeting and working with other Buddhist leaders of similar stature to try to spread the dharma?

I mean actual examples, not just "it happens."
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Queequeg
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Re: Why don't "enlightened masters" work together?

Post by Queequeg »

paradox524 wrote: Tue Feb 26, 2019 7:47 pm I mean actual examples, not just "it happens."
Enlightened or not, HHDL works closely with many other Tibetan and non-Tibetan Buddhist teachers to propagate dharma. Its a regular and ongoing endeavor. All you need to do is look into the matter. Its actually so common that your question appears completely uninformed. Are you looking for proof of these types of interactions for your edification or are you just on some ill informed and petty gotcha quest?
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Upaya Chapter

純一実相。実相外。更無別法。法性寂然名止。寂而常渉照名観。
There is only reality; there is nothing separate from reality. The naturally tranquil nature of dharmas is shamatha. The abiding luminosity of tranquility is vipashyana.

-From Guanding's Introduction to Zhiyi's Great Shamatha and Vipashyana
paradox524
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Re: Why don't "enlightened masters" work together?

Post by paradox524 »

Queequeg wrote: Tue Feb 26, 2019 8:32 pm
paradox524 wrote: Tue Feb 26, 2019 7:47 pm I mean actual examples, not just "it happens."
Enlightened or not, HHDL works closely with many other Tibetan and non-Tibetan Buddhist teachers to propagate dharma. Its a regular and ongoing endeavor. All you need to do is look into the matter. Its actually so common that your question appears completely uninformed. Are you looking for proof of these types of interactions for your edification or are you just on some ill informed and petty gotcha quest?
It's so common that you're literally unable to provide a single one, rather choosing to spend write a long paragraph accusing me of bad faith and telling me to Google it myself. Thanks.

Hopefully I'll hear from someone more interested in and charitable in their mindset, and who is capable and interested in understanding my point of view.
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