the psychedelic community: pros and cons

Casual conversation between friends. Anything goes (almost).
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Luke
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Re: the psychedelic community: pros and cons

Post by Luke »

gloriasteinem wrote: These are the only people who like me and truely support me, and although not very pure they at least don't pay taxes to public opinion.
That's great. A lot of them seem like very nice people. It's also fortunate for them to be in contact with a Buddhist like you! :)
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Luke
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Re: the psychedelic community: pros and cons

Post by Luke »

Another awesome modern psychedelic artist people should check out is Luke Brown. He paints some amazing stuff, and although I haven't heard him say that he is specifically Buddhist, he clearly admires some Buddhist things.
https://instagram.com/luke_brown_spectraleyes/

Here's a pic of him in front of stupa and he posted the Vajra Guru mantra as a caption.
https://instagram.com/p/22fd3pngYh/

And an interview with him if anyone is interested:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=truAtEzykHo

In the interview, he talks about how very aware he is that his own mental state effects the world around him and influences the kind of results he gets from the outer world. In many ways, I think he sounds more Buddhist than Alex Grey (who can't go for like 5 minutes without talking about a creator god! lol), even though Brown doesn't say that he is the student of any Buddhist teacher.
Schrödinger’s Yidam
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Re: the psychedelic community: pros and cons

Post by Schrödinger’s Yidam »

I was at an art gallery when Alex Grey was there showing his work. A guy came in from two doors down where there was a comic book shop that had 3D posters. He had some red/blue 3D glasses with him, and it turns out that all of Alex's paintings where people don't have their skin are all 3D--and Alex didn't even know!
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
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Karma Dondrup Tashi
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Re: the psychedelic community: pros and cons

Post by Karma Dondrup Tashi »

Johnny Dangerous wrote:I've known lots of people who dropped something like 3-4 times a week, and plenty of people who were so addicted to shrooms that they couldn't function with the attendant seratonin fluctuation when they stopped.

What exactly makes you think the usage pattern is different from other drugs?
I am late to the party but I find that amazing. The mind drugs like LSD are IMHO very far away from the "body" drugs. In my limited experience the people who used psychedelics to party rapidly got extremely bored with them and stuck to such things as amphetamines.

EDIT: Of course that is a comment on how irreverent most of such people were. For so called "primitive" peoples, substances like this were sacred.
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Gyurme Kundrol
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Re: the psychedelic community: pros and cons

Post by Gyurme Kundrol »

Its really case by case, but the most important thing of all is a primarily sober practice. Without that you wont be able to integrate the psychedelic experiences and separate the wheat from the chaff. If you dont get most of your ideas and knowledge while sober, most likely you are literally just "tripping out" and all the stuff you are believing in based on your trips is just deluding you more.

Once you understand emptiness and the nature of mind, then even peaking on LSD things dont really change and one still recognizes the fundamental way that things are.
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Adder
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Re: the psychedelic community: pros and cons

Post by Adder »

Johnny Dangerous wrote:Let me ask this, if they are not "physically addictive", what exactly do you think that means? Let's say they are as physically addictive as gambling for instance, why on earth should I see them as different? Gambling also contains no addictive chemicals, and yet, it regularly destroys people's lives. Since I have seen similar sorts of awful stuff from pyschedelic use, why should I care that they might have some mild health benefit in some circumstance?
Many people don't like to operate at the lowest common denominator. Just because a lot of people (most) abuse chemicals does not mean they have no benefits or can be used properly to achieve benefit. Not talking about safe use is probably in effect supporting the normal pattern of dangerous abuse.

Anything can become habitual and develop a 'psychological' dependency. Obviously all behaviour is based on the physical workings of the brain, but how I view it is that gambling is not physically addictive, such that something like 'mood' does not count as physically addictive either, even though its (emotions/moods) action is based on physical effects.

For your hypothetical psychedelic to be physiologically addictive, I think it would have to cause damage upon removal specifically. Usually with psychedelics the damage occurs with inappropriate dosing or interaction, ie use, but not withdrawal.... as what makes the measure for physical addiction is that physiological damage/disease if the substance is withdrawn. It's why they used to differentiate between psychological (mental) addiction and physiological (physical) addiction.

AFAIK this is the correct interpretation of the terms, but yes psychological addiction is certainly enough to destroy peoples lives, but so is things like depression etc. All have a physical basis for the action, but that alone does not equate to 'physical addiction'... AFAIK.

I cannot speak to the psychedelic 'community', but psychedelic's have unparalleled capacity to show clear and deep altered perceptions. The problem is our cultures tend to be so fixated on a very narrow way to perceive reality that the depth and severity of some psychedelics can unhinge that connection to reality if the dose is too high (at once or over time) or dangerous interactions occur causing actual physical damage. Or quite simply provide enough confusion to be less then useful. The only thing supportive I've seen in the community is sober/straight carers, and anyone who explains usage to new users. The art and ideas are kewl though!!
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Kaccāni
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Re: the psychedelic community: pros and cons

Post by Kaccāni »

Why this fixation on altered states of consciousness? Aren't hypnagogic imagery and dreams enough to grasp the principle?

How should "being drugged" lead you any closer to "staying present"? It would appear that psychedelics show you a ton of things that one may become obsessed with.

If you can't believe that time is made by the mind, and time distorts or stands still in a trip, the chance is likely that those people will say "It was an illusion of the drug". So what.

Best wishes
Kc
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Luke
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Re: the psychedelic community: pros and cons

Post by Luke »

smcj wrote:I was at an art gallery when Alex Grey was there showing his work. A guy came in from two doors down where there was a comic book shop that had 3D posters. He had some red/blue 3D glasses with him, and it turns out that all of Alex's paintings where people don't have their skin are all 3D--and Alex didn't even know!
That's awesome! :twothumbsup:

Here is a great talk that Alex Grey gave about the whole visionary art movement and its different forms.
phpBB [video]


Here is the Luke Brown painting "Salvia Dalinorum" which is in Grey's presentation
Image
gloriasteinem
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Re: the psychedelic community: pros and cons

Post by gloriasteinem »

Luke wrote:
gloriasteinem wrote: These are the only people who like me and truely support me, and although not very pure they at least don't pay taxes to public opinion.
That's great. A lot of them seem like very nice people. It's also fortunate for them to be in contact with a Buddhist like you! :)
Thanks
Image
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Paul
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Re: the psychedelic community: pros and cons

Post by Paul »

Kaccāni wrote:It would appear that psychedelics show you a ton of things that one may become obsessed with.
Same with your eyeballs.
Look at the unfathomable spinelessness of man: all the means he's been given to stay alert he uses, in the end, to ornament his sleep. – Rene Daumal
the modern mind has become so limited and single-visioned that it has lost touch with normal perception - John Michell
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monktastic
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Re: the psychedelic community: pros and cons

Post by monktastic »

Kaccāni wrote:Why this fixation on altered states of consciousness?
For some, those states are paradoxically the first time they might ever suspect that "normal" consciousness may itself be an "altered state" (i.e., not the natural state). Theoretically, dream states should be enough to make this obvious, but in practice we can see they are typically not.

As we have discussed ad nauseam, this doesn't always lead to positive outcomes (e.g. getting on the path), but with the right supportive conditions, the possibility is certainly there. (I should add that there is research being done on those supportive conditions, and I for one applaud that.)
This undistracted state of ordinary mind
Is the meditation.
One will understand it in due course.

--Gampopa
frankc
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Re: the psychedelic community: pros and cons

Post by frankc »

Johnny Dangerous wrote:I've known a lot of people who experimented with psychedelics...I haven't' known a single one that ended up somehow better for the experience. Generally, IMO habitual drug use of any kind is a sign that there is something else going on underneath, and often the drug use is used to avoid it.

Note, that's habitual drug use, not moderate drug use.
People who have consumed ayahuasca report having spiritual revelations regarding their purpose on earth, the true nature of the universe as well as deep insight into how to be the best person they possibly can. This is viewed by many as a spiritual awakening and what is often described as a rebirth. In addition, it is often reported that individuals feel they gain access to higher spiritual dimensions and make contact with various spiritual or extra-dimensional beings who can act as guides or healers.

Author Don Jose Campos claims that people may experience profound positive life changes subsequent to consuming ayahuasca. Vomiting can follow ayahuasca ingestion; this purging is considered by many shamans and experienced users of ayahuasca to be an essential part of the experience, as it represents the release of negative energy and emotions built up over the course of one's life. Others report purging in the form of nausea, diarrhea, and hot/cold flashes.

You think a lot of people are taking things like Ayahuasca recreationally to hide from something else going on underneath by escaping into a drug that makes them vomit, have diarrhea, hot cold flashes, and sometimes perhaps even face their own death? Mother Ayahuasca is said to be a healer, perhaps even Goddess of the planet. I assume there are idea's out there that she put this plant here to help us. Perhaps she is the Green Tara.

Kaccāni wrote:Why this fixation on altered states of consciousness?
Why not? Perhaps these altered states of consciousness are closer to your true nature. What are the jhanas? what is nirvana? what is enlightenment? If you don't want to alter normal consciousness then why be a Buddhist.
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StrangeGuy
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Re: the psychedelic community: pros and cons

Post by StrangeGuy »

That reminds me of the story of the westerner going to India and giving LSD to a Yogic. After taking it, the Yogic said it's really good stuff, but Yoga get's you into even higher states (Yoga = meditation according to him) with the ability to stop the experience when you want it to stop - instantly. With psychedelics you won't have that sort of getting out instantly. Psychedelics can lead to very bad avenues, I've seen enough of that during my work in prison to say that it's like playing with fire. If something becomes an addictive behaviour, most people don't even realize it, till the addiciton has them ensnared. Addiction can come fast like a freight train or slow...unrecongizable like a poisonous snake. Defusing it really can be some of the most difficult exertions of will - and people still can fail. Especially in cases of opiate addiction. So I would be careful with it.
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Re: the psychedelic community: pros and cons

Post by Schrödinger’s Yidam »

Bear talks about Hells Angels enjoying taking psychedelics and fighting--among other things.
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
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Kim O'Hara
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Re: the psychedelic community: pros and cons

Post by Kim O'Hara »

StrangeGuy wrote:That reminds me of the story of the westerner going to India and giving LSD to a Yogic. After taking it, the Yogic said it's really good stuff, but Yoga get's you into even higher states (Yoga = meditation according to him) with the ability to stop the experience when you want it to stop - instantly.
Ram Dass aka Richard Alpert, in Be Here Now, if I remember correctly ... and I may not - it's a looong time since I read it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Be_Here_Now_(book)

:coffee:
Kim
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