AKB, Ch. 1, V. 32: Dhatus - vitarka and vicara

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Queequeg
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AKB, Ch. 1, V. 32: Dhatus - vitarka and vicara

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I was not sure what vitarka and vicara were, so I looked it up. A footnote refers to Ch. 2, vv. 28 & 33. That was not particularly helpful.
Ch. 2, V. 33 reads:
"Vitarka and vicara are grossness and subtlety of the mind."
The footnote there says this definition is from some unknown sutra.

These are caitasika - mental factors.

Vitarka is translated as "thoughts," "applied thought," or "applied attention" in the Princeton Dictionary of Buddhism. It "refers to the momentary advertence toward the chosen object of attention." It is of an indeterminate moral quality and can refer both to the ordinary mind turning from one object to the next, or it can refer to the direction of the mind to an object of contemplation in the first dhyana, dropping off thereafter.

Vicara is translated as "sustained thought," "sustained attention," "imagination," and "analysis" in the PDB. It is "the continued pondering of things." It is of an indeterminate moral quality and can refer to sustained thinking about an object in ordinary mind as well as sustained contemplation in the dhyanas, including the first dhyana.

This section considers the Eighteen Dhatus from the perspective of the factors of vitarka and vicara.

The consciousnesses associated with externalities - visual, auditory, olfactory, oral and tactile consciousnesses all include both vitarka and vicara. This is clear - visual consciousness can either be adverting to an object or sustaining attention to an object.

Now, with regard to the manodhatu (mental organ), manovijnanadhatu (mental consciousness), and dharmadhaytu (mental objects), in the Kamadhatu, they all have both vitarka and vicara. They are both present in the first dhyana. In the second, third and fourth dhyanas, there is no vitarka but there is vicara. Once one has turned their attention to an object, and one capable of the dhyanas is by definition capable of maintaining attention, vitarka is done. In the arupadhatu, where beings manifest without manodhatu, vicara drops away.

The 5 sense organs and their 5 respective objects do not have vitarka and vicara because these are factors of mind.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
Malcolm
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Re: AKB, Ch. 1, V. 32: Dhatus - vitarka and vicara

Post by Malcolm »

Queequeg wrote: Wed Feb 24, 2021 5:48 am I was not sure what vitarka and vicara were, so I looked it up. A footnote refers to Ch. 2, vv. 28 & 33. That was not particularly helpful.
Ch. 2, V. 33 reads:
"Vitarka and vicara are grossness and subtlety of the mind."
The footnote there says this definition is from some unknown sutra.

These are caitasika - mental factors.

Vitarka is translated as "thoughts," "applied thought," or "applied attention" in the Princeton Dictionary of Buddhism. It "refers to the momentary advertence toward the chosen object of attention." It is of an indeterminate moral quality and can refer both to the ordinary mind turning from one object to the next, or it can refer to the direction of the mind to an object of contemplation in the first dhyana, dropping off thereafter.

Vicara is translated as "sustained thought," "sustained attention," "imagination," and "analysis" in the PDB. It is "the continued pondering of things." It is of an indeterminate moral quality and can refer to sustained thinking about an object in ordinary mind as well as sustained contemplation in the dhyanas, including the first dhyana.

This section considers the Eighteen Dhatus from the perspective of the factors of vitarka and vicara.

The consciousnesses associated with externalities - visual, auditory, olfactory, oral and tactile consciousnesses all include both vitarka and vicara. This is clear - visual consciousness can either be adverting to an object or sustaining attention to an object.

Now, with regard to the manodhatu (mental organ), manovijnanadhatu (mental consciousness), and dharmadhaytu (mental objects), in the Kamadhatu, they all have both vitarka and vicara. They are both present in the first dhyana. In the second, third and fourth dhyanas, there is no vitarka but there is vicara. Once one has turned their attention to an object, and one capable of the dhyanas is by definition capable of maintaining attention, vitarka is done. In the arupadhatu, where beings manifest without manodhatu, vicara drops away.

The 5 sense organs and their 5 respective objects do not have vitarka and vicara because these are factors of mind.
They important mental factors in the first dhyana/shamatha.
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Re: AKB, Ch. 1, V. 32: Dhatus - vitarka and vicara

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Malcolm wrote: Wed Feb 24, 2021 3:08 pm
Queequeg wrote: Wed Feb 24, 2021 5:48 am I was not sure what vitarka and vicara were, so I looked it up. A footnote refers to Ch. 2, vv. 28 & 33. That was not particularly helpful.
Ch. 2, V. 33 reads:
"Vitarka and vicara are grossness and subtlety of the mind."
The footnote there says this definition is from some unknown sutra.

These are caitasika - mental factors.

Vitarka is translated as "thoughts," "applied thought," or "applied attention" in the Princeton Dictionary of Buddhism. It "refers to the momentary advertence toward the chosen object of attention." It is of an indeterminate moral quality and can refer both to the ordinary mind turning from one object to the next, or it can refer to the direction of the mind to an object of contemplation in the first dhyana, dropping off thereafter.

Vicara is translated as "sustained thought," "sustained attention," "imagination," and "analysis" in the PDB. It is "the continued pondering of things." It is of an indeterminate moral quality and can refer to sustained thinking about an object in ordinary mind as well as sustained contemplation in the dhyanas, including the first dhyana.

This section considers the Eighteen Dhatus from the perspective of the factors of vitarka and vicara.

The consciousnesses associated with externalities - visual, auditory, olfactory, oral and tactile consciousnesses all include both vitarka and vicara. This is clear - visual consciousness can either be adverting to an object or sustaining attention to an object.

Now, with regard to the manodhatu (mental organ), manovijnanadhatu (mental consciousness), and dharmadhaytu (mental objects), in the Kamadhatu, they all have both vitarka and vicara. They are both present in the first dhyana. In the second, third and fourth dhyanas, there is no vitarka but there is vicara. Once one has turned their attention to an object, and one capable of the dhyanas is by definition capable of maintaining attention, vitarka is done. In the arupadhatu, where beings manifest without manodhatu, vicara drops away.

The 5 sense organs and their 5 respective objects do not have vitarka and vicara because these are factors of mind.
They important mental factors in the first dhyana/shamatha.
Right. I'm now remembering Abhidhamma I studied a while back. I also read through those sections on vitarka and vicara in Chapter II of the AKB.

It also occurred to me why we are covering this now, and this is obvious, except I have been drowning a little in this chapter - Vasubandhu is explaining the category of Dhatu, which includes categories of both form and mind (citta). Mental factors clearly do not pertain to form, only citta. I am getting that he is pointing out these distinctions between categories of dhatus.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
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Re: AKB, Ch. 1, V. 32: Dhatus - vitarka and vicara

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Queequeg wrote: Wed Feb 24, 2021 3:26 pm It also occurred to me why we are covering this now, and this is obvious, except I have been drowning a little in this chapter - Vasubandhu is explaining the category of Dhatu, which includes categories of both form and mind (citta). Mental factors clearly do not pertain to form, only citta. I am getting that he is pointing out these distinctions between categories of dhatus.
Following up on this - it is thus interesting that manodhatu, manovijnanadhatu and dharmadhatu, at least in the kamadhatu, all are associated with vitarka and vicara. The implication being that all three - the mind organ and mind objects as well as conciousness are not rupa (form).

This stands in contrast to Western Scientific Materialism that reduces the mind organ, its objects and consciousness to matter.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
Malcolm
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Re: AKB, Ch. 1, V. 32: Dhatus - vitarka and vicara

Post by Malcolm »

Queequeg wrote: Wed Feb 24, 2021 3:34 pm
Queequeg wrote: Wed Feb 24, 2021 3:26 pm It also occurred to me why we are covering this now, and this is obvious, except I have been drowning a little in this chapter - Vasubandhu is explaining the category of Dhatu, which includes categories of both form and mind (citta). Mental factors clearly do not pertain to form, only citta. I am getting that he is pointing out these distinctions between categories of dhatus.
Following up on this - it is thus interesting that manodhatu, manovijnanadhatu and dharmadhatu, at least in the kamadhatu, all are associated with vitarka and vicara. The implication being that all three - the mind organ and mind objects as well as conciousness are not rupa (form).

This stands in contrast to Western Scientific Materialism that reduces the mind organ, its objects and consciousness to matter.
Correct. The perceptions of the five sense organs are nonconceptual vijñānas, since vijñāna is always nonconceptual, being a present mind. Manas is conceptual, being a "past" mind, that is not a mind in the past, but a mentation of past events.
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Re: AKB, Ch. 1, V. 32: Dhatus - vitarka and vicara

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Malcolm wrote: Wed Feb 24, 2021 4:19 pm
Queequeg wrote: Wed Feb 24, 2021 3:34 pm
Queequeg wrote: Wed Feb 24, 2021 3:26 pm It also occurred to me why we are covering this now, and this is obvious, except I have been drowning a little in this chapter - Vasubandhu is explaining the category of Dhatu, which includes categories of both form and mind (citta). Mental factors clearly do not pertain to form, only citta. I am getting that he is pointing out these distinctions between categories of dhatus.
Following up on this - it is thus interesting that manodhatu, manovijnanadhatu and dharmadhatu, at least in the kamadhatu, all are associated with vitarka and vicara. The implication being that all three - the mind organ and mind objects as well as conciousness are not rupa (form).

This stands in contrast to Western Scientific Materialism that reduces the mind organ, its objects and consciousness to matter.
Correct. The perceptions of the five sense organs are nonconceptual vijñānas, since vijñāna is always nonconceptual, being a present mind. Manas is conceptual, being a "past" mind, that is not a mind in the past, but a mentation of past events.
I've been looking into this process by which stimuli ripen into what we generally call consciousness in English as described in Buddhism, and it has been really edifying and helpful in my meditation practice.

Using the English words - we say that consciousness arises when the eye makes contact with an object. As you point out, this is a non-conceptual consciousness. It also has what I would describe as an inert connotation - its not animated by any grasping. Its only when this consciousness makes contact with the mind organ that it becomes animated by our projections onto it, at root our grasping at the object, and all the concomitant ideas, views, desires, etc. that we heap onto it. I take this inert quality to view the mind as well, and what I am then able to do is sort of distinguish between the inert quality of the mental consciousness, sort of just operating, and all the self that gets agglomerated onto it. This makes practice of observing and releasing thoughts a little easier, I think.

Which, I understand is kind of the point of studying this stuff. We're not studying this just to acquire knowledge, but rather to inform our practice, to make our practice more effective by finely understanding how all of this tends to work in order to liberate from these limits and obstacles formed by grasping.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
Malcolm
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Re: AKB, Ch. 1, V. 32: Dhatus - vitarka and vicara

Post by Malcolm »

Queequeg wrote: Wed Feb 24, 2021 4:42 pm
Which, I understand is kind of the point of studying this stuff. We're not studying this just to acquire knowledge, but rather to inform our practice, to make our practice more effective by finely understanding how all of this tends to work in order to liberate from these limits and obstacles formed by grasping.
Correct. This is the anatomy of Buddhist teachings which apply to every higher tenet system, up to and including Dzogchen teachings. They explain the raison d'être of the Buddhist path.
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Re: AKB, Ch. 1, V. 32: Dhatus - vitarka and vicara

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Queequeg wrote: Wed Feb 24, 2021 5:48 am In the arupadhatu, where beings manifest without manodhatu...
Is this correct? Reviewing, I'm not sure I made an accurate statement.

Manodhatu is not form, right? So it could very well persist in the arupadhatu... ?
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
Malcolm
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Re: AKB, Ch. 1, V. 32: Dhatus - vitarka and vicara

Post by Malcolm »

Queequeg wrote: Wed Feb 24, 2021 6:47 pm
Queequeg wrote: Wed Feb 24, 2021 5:48 am In the arupadhatu, where beings manifest without manodhatu...
Is this correct? Reviewing, I'm not sure I made an accurate statement.

Manodhatu is not form, right? So it could very well persist in the arupadhatu... ?
Beings in the formless realm only have three dhātus: mano, manovijñāna, and dharma. There is no matter in the dharmadhātu. Their mind is only a past mind, since they are supported their on the formless realm samadhi that projected their birth.
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Re: AKB, Ch. 1, V. 32: Dhatus - vitarka and vicara

Post by Queequeg »

Thank you.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
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