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AKB, Ch. 1, Ver. 4-6: Exposition of the Elements (Dhatunirdesa); Discernment of the Factors (Dharma)

Posted: Thu Jul 02, 2020 1:56 pm
by Grigoris
Twofold Classification of Factors: Impure (Sasrava) and Pure (Anasrava)

The conditioned factors, with the exception of the (noble) path, are
impure; they are impure because the fluxes adhere to or grow concordantly
in them [samanuserate].
So while defiled consciousness can contact the factors of the Noble Path, it cannot be purified by them, nor can it defile the path factors?
Space ( akasa);60 F 8
5d. Space is that which does not hinder [matter or material form;,and
that which is not hindered by matter or material form].
Space is in its intrinsic nature [non-obstruction, in that it] (1) does not
hinder matter or material form (rupa), which, in fact, takes place freely in
space; and also (2) is not hindered by matter or material form, for space is
not turned away by matter or material form.
If space is not "turned away" by an object does that mean that space continues to exist independent of the fact of the presence (or absence) of an object?
Cessation due to deliberation (pratisarμkhyanirodha); 63 F 8-9
6ab. Cessation due to deliberation is disconnection [from the impure
factors], each disconnection taken separately...
...If it were otherwise, if the cessation due to deliberation were single, a person who
has obtained, i.e., realized, the cessation of the defilements [klesanirodha]
which are abandoned by insight into the truth of unsatisfactoriness would have
obtained or actualized at the same time the cessation of the defilements which are
abandoned by insight [darsana] into the other truths and by cultivation [bhavana],
[i.e., the cessation of all the defilements (sarvaklesa)]. It would be futile [vaiyarthya]
then for the practitioners to cultivate the part of the (noble) path which counteracts
these [remaining] defilements.
Interesting. Does that mean that one has to eradicate each defilement seperately (which, according to different classification systems number from 3 to 108), that it is not enough to just strike at the ignorance underlying all of them?
Cessation not due to deliberation (apratisaf!Zkhyiinirodha);
...This cessation) is called thus because it is obtained, not
by the deliberation of the truths, but by the deficiency of the [necessary]
causes and conditions of arising.
Now an example of this is the non-arising of visual consciousness due to the absence of visual stimuli.

But would this mean that being in a comatose state, for example, is akin to cessation?

Re: AKB, Ch. 1, Ver. 4-6: Exposition of the Elements (Dhatunirdesa); Discernment of the Factors (Dharma)

Posted: Thu Jul 02, 2020 8:39 pm
by PadmaVonSamba
Thank you for this discussion. It’s really wonderful.

Grigoris wrote: Thu Jul 02, 2020 1:56 pm If space is not "turned away" by an object does that mean that space continues to exist independent of the fact of the presence (or absence) of an object?
If you put a brick into a large shoe box, air is displaced by the brick, but the box doesn’t expand. Space is the same regardless of whether it is empty space or filled space. “Depth” as in three-dimensions might be a better term than “space”.
Grigoris wrote: Thu Jul 02, 2020 1:56 pm Does that mean that one has to eradicate each defilement seperately (which, according to different classification systems number from 3 to 108), that it is not enough to just strike at the ignorance underlying all of them?
I don’t read that to mean exclusively so. It’s like apples on a tree: you can pick them one at a time, or you could just chop down the tree.
Grigoris wrote: Thu Jul 02, 2020 1:56 pm But would this mean that being in a comatose state, for example, is akin to cessation?
I think, technically, yes, but it’s like stopping someone from feeling hungry by making them nauseous. While, at the present moment, they no longer crave food, the causes for hunger to occur again are still there.

Re: AKB, Ch. 1, Ver. 4-6: Exposition of the Elements (Dhatunirdesa); Discernment of the Factors (Dharma)

Posted: Thu Jul 02, 2020 8:54 pm
by Malcolm
Grigoris wrote: Thu Jul 02, 2020 1:56 pm
Twofold Classification of Factors: Impure (Sasrava) and Pure (Anasrava)

The conditioned factors, with the exception of the (noble) path, are
impure; they are impure because the fluxes adhere to or grow concordantly
in them [samanuserate].
So while defiled consciousness can contact the factors of the Noble Path, it cannot be purified by them, nor can it defile the path factors?
All this is saying is that all compounded phenomena are defiled apart from path phenomena. They are abandoned, not purified. This is discussed in more detail in chapter 2, when we get to the twenty-two Indriyas.

If space is not "turned away" by an object does that mean that space continues to exist independent of the fact of the presence (or absence) of an object?
It just means that space permeates everything.

Cessation due to deliberation (pratisarμkhyanirodha); 63 F 8-9
6ab. Cessation due to deliberation is disconnection [from the impure
factors], each disconnection taken separately...
...If it were otherwise, if the cessation due to deliberation were single, a person who
has obtained, i.e., realized, the cessation of the defilements [klesanirodha]
which are abandoned by insight into the truth of unsatisfactoriness would have
obtained or actualized at the same time the cessation of the defilements which are
abandoned by insight [darsana] into the other truths and by cultivation [bhavana],
[i.e., the cessation of all the defilements (sarvaklesa)]. It would be futile [vaiyarthya]
then for the practitioners to cultivate the part of the (noble) path which counteracts
these [remaining] defilements.
Interesting. Does that mean that one has to eradicate each defilement seperately (which, according to different classification systems number from 3 to 108), that it is not enough to just strike at the ignorance underlying all of them?
According to this system, there are nine categories of afflictions to remove, from strong-strong to weak-weak. The strong-strong afflictions in stream enterer and so on, now latent, have to be removed gradually through analysis. This is largely the subject matter of chapter 6.
an example of this is the non-arising of visual consciousness due to the absence of visual stimuli.

But would this mean that being in a comatose state, for example, is akin to cessation?
Non analytical cessation is simply the absence of a cause which can bear a result, for example, a burnt seed.

Re: AKB, Ch. 1, Ver. 4-6: Exposition of the Elements (Dhatunirdesa); Discernment of the Factors (Dharma)

Posted: Thu Jul 02, 2020 10:09 pm
by Queequeg
Malcolm wrote: Thu Jul 02, 2020 8:54 pm
Grigoris wrote: Thu Jul 02, 2020 1:56 pm
Twofold Classification of Factors: Impure (Sasrava) and Pure (Anasrava)

The conditioned factors, with the exception of the (noble) path, are
impure; they are impure because the fluxes adhere to or grow concordantly
in them [samanuserate].
So while defiled consciousness can contact the factors of the Noble Path, it cannot be purified by them, nor can it defile the path factors?
All this is saying is that all compounded phenomena are defiled apart from path phenomena. They are abandoned, not purified. This is discussed in more detail in chapter 2, when we get to the twenty-two Indriyas.
I got the sense that the defilements do not adhere to the path precisely because the path is what defeats the defilements. Is that off base?
an example of this is the non-arising of visual consciousness due to the absence of visual stimuli.

But would this mean that being in a comatose state, for example, is akin to cessation?
I think being in a comatose state would be something like a suspension...

Maybe related or not - in Theravada, I think this is why they need to posit a connecting consciousness - to connect two moments of mind when there is no input coming in from the six senses.

Re: AKB, Ch. 1, Ver. 4-6: Exposition of the Elements (Dhatunirdesa); Discernment of the Factors (Dharma)

Posted: Thu Jul 02, 2020 10:26 pm
by Malcolm
Queequeg wrote: Thu Jul 02, 2020 10:09 pm
Malcolm wrote: Thu Jul 02, 2020 8:54 pm
Grigoris wrote: Thu Jul 02, 2020 1:56 pm So while defiled consciousness can contact the factors of the Noble Path, it cannot be purified by them, nor can it defile the path factors?
All this is saying is that all compounded phenomena are defiled apart from path phenomena. They are abandoned, not purified. This is discussed in more detail in chapter 2, when we get to the twenty-two Indriyas.
I got the sense that the defilements do not adhere to the path precisely because the path is what defeats the defilements. Is that off base?
Path phenomena are the 8 indriyas of nirvana, faith, mindfulness, diligence, wisdom, and samadhi, etc. Or the thirty-seven factors conducive to awakening: the four foundations of mindfulness, the four true abandonments, the four magical abilities, the five powers, five strengths, the seven factors that lead to awakening and the eight-fold path.





Maybe related or not - in Theravada, I think this is why they need to posit a connecting consciousness - to connect two moments of mind when there is no input coming in from the six senses.
Non-analytical cessation is just the simple absence of a cause. Analytical cessation is cessation due to wisdom. The cause of the bhavanga consciousness is consciousness.

Re: AKB, Ch. 1, Ver. 4-6: Exposition of the Elements (Dhatunirdesa); Discernment of the Factors (Dharma)

Posted: Thu Jul 02, 2020 10:34 pm
by Queequeg
Malcolm wrote: Thu Jul 02, 2020 10:26 pm

Maybe related or not - in Theravada, I think this is why they need to posit a connecting consciousness - to connect two moments of mind when there is no input coming in from the six senses.
Non-analytical cessation is just the simple absence of a cause. Analytical cessation is cessation due to wisdom. The cause of the bhavanga consciousness is consciousness.
I don't want to digress too much - but isn't this posited precisely because the Abhidhamma model stalls out when there isn't some activity going on... so they need to have this bhavanga to fill in the blanks - some inert "consciousness" arising in succession when there apparently isn't anything happening. Would they not say that bhavanga is ticking along in a coma?

Xuanzang in his commentary on Vasubandhu's thirty verses suggests bhavanga is a mistaken understanding of Alaya.

Re: AKB, Ch. 1, Ver. 4-6: Exposition of the Elements (Dhatunirdesa); Discernment of the Factors (Dharma)

Posted: Tue Jul 07, 2020 12:31 am
by PeterC
PadmaVonSamba wrote: Thu Jul 02, 2020 8:39 pm
Grigoris wrote: Thu Jul 02, 2020 1:56 pm Does that mean that one has to eradicate each defilement seperately (which, according to different classification systems number from 3 to 108), that it is not enough to just strike at the ignorance underlying all of them?
I don’t read that to mean exclusively so. It’s like apples on a tree: you can pick them one at a time, or you could just chop down the tree.
Is that what it’s saying? I read it to mean exactly what Greg suggested. For instance:
Is there but one pratisamkhyaniroda from all of the impure dharmas?

No.
Why is this?

6b. Each [disjunction occurs] separately.

Each disjunction taken separately is a pratisamkhyaniroda. The objects of “disjunction” are as numerous as the objects of “junction”. If it were otherwise, if pratisamkhyaniroda were single, then a person who has achieved the extinction of a defilement which is abandoned by seeing the Truth of Suffering, would have obtained at the same time the extinction of the defilement which are abandoned by the Seeing of the other Truths, and by meditation. It would be useless for him to cultivate the part of the Path which is opposed to those defilement.

Re: AKB, Ch. 1, Ver. 4-6: Exposition of the Elements (Dhatunirdesa); Discernment of the Factors (Dharma)

Posted: Tue Jul 14, 2020 1:36 pm
by jake
PeterC wrote: Tue Jul 07, 2020 12:31 am
PadmaVonSamba wrote: Thu Jul 02, 2020 8:39 pm
Grigoris wrote: Thu Jul 02, 2020 1:56 pm Does that mean that one has to eradicate each defilement seperately (which, according to different classification systems number from 3 to 108), that it is not enough to just strike at the ignorance underlying all of them?
I don’t read that to mean exclusively so. It’s like apples on a tree: you can pick them one at a time, or you could just chop down the tree.
Is that what it’s saying? I read it to mean exactly what Greg suggested. For instance:
Is there but one pratisamkhyaniroda from all of the impure dharmas?

No.
Why is this?

6b. Each [disjunction occurs] separately.

Each disjunction taken separately is a pratisamkhyaniroda. The objects of “disjunction” are as numerous as the objects of “junction”. If it were otherwise, if pratisamkhyaniroda were single, then a person who has achieved the extinction of a defilement which is abandoned by seeing the Truth of Suffering, would have obtained at the same time the extinction of the defilement which are abandoned by the Seeing of the other Truths, and by meditation. It would be useless for him to cultivate the part of the Path which is opposed to those defilement.
I understood the text to say exactly as Greg and Peter have stated. If I were to speculate, based on your example, the "Chopping a tree down" is more of a method (e.g. tantric) which affects each apple (defilement) on the tree, just all at once. What I understand Vasubandhu to say is more like, if I pick one apple and place it in my basket, all the other apples don't just suddenly appear there as well. Each apple has to be removed. There are different methods which can help remove more than one apple at a time, but every apple is affected through different, discrete action (hand) e.g. I can remove two apples at once with two hands, an octopus could remove eight.

Right?