How to get a reals sense of reincarnation being true? / Fear of death questions

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Kili
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How to get a reals sense of reincarnation being true? / Fear of death questions

Post by Kili »

Is it possible to gain a real sense of reincarnation being true and if so through what practice?
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Re: How to get a reals sense of reincarnation being true?

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

Kili wrote: Mon Jan 25, 2021 8:06 pm Is it possible to gain a real sense of reincarnation being true and if so through what practice?
Looking closely at the mind and phenomena. Really though, I think it's a thing where people either gain conviction in over time, or don't. Rebirth is not true or false, any more than living and dying are true or false, and I don't think it's something you can force yourself into accepting through a practice.
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Re: How to get a reals sense of reincarnation being true?

Post by Budai »

Here is some information on the subject from a BDK book entitled Buddha-Dharma: The Way To Enlightenment (it is free to download on their website), with the Buddha speaking to a brahmin:
(5) At one time, Janussoni came into the presence of the World-Honored One and said, “World-Honored One, is an offering made to a brahmin with the three knowledges a true offering?” The Buddha asked, “What is the nature of the three knowledges?” The brahmin answered, “O World-Honored One, the brahmin of the three knowledges is well versed in the three Vedas: the Rgveda, the Samaveda, and the Yajurveda. On both his father’s and his mother’s side for as far back as seven generations, there must not be a single case where the family lineage has been stained. He must never be the object of derision; his family name must be honorable and his livelihood pure. He must memorize the sacred books and incantations and be well versed in the terminology, rituals, liturgy, interpretations, stories, and accounts contained in the Vedas. He must be clear with regard to the origin of words and grammar. Then, after having learned the lokayata philosophy of materialism, and after having mastered knowledge of the marks of a great sage, this brahmin may well be called a brahmin of the three knowledges.”

The Buddha then stated, “0 brahmin, it is true that this is one version of the three knowledges, but it is not so when seen from the standpoint of the true teachings.” To this the brahmin asked, “O World-Honored One, what then are the true three knowledges?” The Buddha then gave him the following teaching: “0 brahmin, listen carefully to my teaching. When my disciple, pursuing the way to purity, first abandons desire and impurity, then there may still be remnants of the workings of the mind that questions and reasons, he enters the first level of concentration and experiences joy and happiness. At the second level of concentration, he enjoys the joy and happiness coming from meditation after abandoning questioning and reasoning. Advancing and leaving this joy and happiness, he resides in thoughts that are unbiased. Enjoying the happiness of right mind and right thought, he enters into the third level of concentration. Moving ahead, freed from thoughts of happiness and unhappiness, of joy and anxiety, he enters into the fourth concentration, which is the state of mind that is pure and undisturbed, transcending all suffering and pleasure.

“In this state the mind of my disciple is quiescent and clear, free of all wants and desires. His mind is not only clear but also freed of calculation; it is ready to function at all times and is firm and never to be upset by others. And when his mind is directed toward things of the past, then the happenings of the past, from one past life to a million past lives and beyond that can be brought to mind. Matters such as his names and family lineages during past lives are remembered; moreover his professions, experiences, and life spans, even down to their minor characteristics, are clearly recollected. It is at this stage that he acquires the power of knowing his own and others’ past lives, whereby ignorance is destroyed, darkness is dispelled, and light comes into being.

“Next, he will direct his mind toward knowing the births and deaths of other people. With divine eyes that transcend human sight, he is now able to discern that the noble and the base, the beautiful and the ugly, the happy and the unhappy, all appear and disappear according to their actions. Some commit evil with their bodies, mouths, and minds, slander the sages, and harbor impure thoughts. Because of these actions, they fall into the realms of hellish suffering. Others perform good acts with their bodies, mouths, and minds; they refrain from slandering the sages and have right attitudes and understanding. By virtue of their good actions, they are born in the realm of purity. This second wisdom is called knowing others’ thoughts. In it ignorance is destroyed, darkness is dispelled, and light comes into being.

“At the next stage, he directs his mind toward the extinction of all defilements. He clearly perceives the reality of suffering, the cause of suffering, the removal of suffering, and the way to the removal of suffering.

“Likewise, he clearly perceives what is defilement, what is the cause of defilement, what is the extinction of defilement, and what is the way to the extinction of defilement. Now, upon having realized this, his mind is freed from the defilement arising from human desires, the defilement arising from existence itself, and the defilement arising from human blindness. Thus, he gains the awareness that he has been freed from these bondages. There arises in him the knowledge that the life of delusion has come to an end; that the pure practices have been completed; that what had to be accomplished has been accomplished; and that he will never again experience birth in delusion. This is the third wisdom, called the extinction of defilements, whereby ignorance is destroyed, darkness is dispelled, and light comes into being. O brahmin, by the expression ‘brahmin of the three knowledges’ we mean a person who possesses these three wisdoms.”

To these instructions, the brahmin replied that, when comparing the three knowledges he had spoken of before with those of the Buddha, he realized that they were inferior, not even one-sixteenth as valuable. And he praised the superiority of the Buddha’s teachings.
-Buddha-Dharma: The Way To Enlightenment.
Last edited by Budai on Mon Jan 25, 2021 10:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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What is the best practice to lose your fear of dying?

Post by Kili »

What can you do to lose your fear of dying ? Is there a way to get a felt sense of its being nothing to fear?
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Re: How to get a reals sense of reincarnation being true? / Fear of death questions

Post by Queequeg »

1. I have heard that meditation practice can bring you to the deepest levels of your consciousness that persist through the cycles of life and death. Its said that penetrating to that level is not just a sense of rebirth being true, but actually being able to recall details of past lives, in addition to other abilities. This, however, is not the goal of Buddhist awakening. Its something that happens incidentally.

2. I'm not sure overcoming the fear of death is possible without knowing consciousness deeply. In a way, we could say, you have to know what life truly is in order to understand death.

Until then, until we know for ourselves, our strategy for overcoming the fear of death, for instance, is to take refuge.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
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Re: How to get a reals sense of reincarnation being true? / Fear of death questions

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

It’s helpful to understand the difference between rebirth, as understood in the Buddhist context, which is that our confused experience (of a constant ‘self’) perpetually arises both moment to moment, and from one lifetime to another,
and reincarnation which is that an ultimate “self” exists, that jumps from one body to the next at the time of death. (Buddhism rejects the idea of an ultimate ‘self’).

If you understand that rebirth is going on all the time, then you can eventually get a “real sense” of that.
The method is to begin with meditation, allowing thoughts to come and go without holding onto them, and the allowing the mind to just rest in natural awareness.

The confused understanding that perpetually arises occurs because of attachment to the thoughts that arise, which are expressions of the mistaken experience of a permanent ‘self’.

When you come to realize that the “person who you were” even a few moments ago no longer exists. That what you are experiencing at this very second is, what you might say, a very fresh (and almost but not quite identical) copy, then you see that death and rebirth has been going on the whole time. What is to be afraid of then?
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Re: What is the best practice to lose your fear of dying?

Post by Aryjna »

Kili wrote: Tue Jan 26, 2021 12:03 am What can you do to lose your fear of dying ? Is there a way to get a felt sense of its being nothing to fear?
Being sure about rebirth and having no fear of death do not really go hand in hand. As long as you are under the influence of your past karma you have no control over what your next existence will be, and for the vast majority of beings it is not good. That is why it is important to practice now that there is a chance.

You will have nothing to fear though when you realize that everything is completely illusory.
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Re: How to get a reals sense of reincarnation being true? / Fear of death questions

Post by Matt J »

Actually, if materialism is correct, then upon death there is nothing to worry about either. In that sense, the after death state is no different than the pre birth state. Actually it’s not really even a stare since there is no consciousness.

So even if rebirth is wrong, death is not scary.
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Re: How to get a reals sense of reincarnation being true? / Fear of death questions

Post by Kili »

PadmaVonSamba wrote: Tue Jan 26, 2021 4:05 pm It’s helpful to understand the difference between rebirth, as understood in the Buddhist context, which is that our confused experience (of a constant ‘self’) perpetually arises both moment to moment, and from one lifetime to another,
and reincarnation which is that an ultimate “self” exists, that jumps from one body to the next at the time of death. (Buddhism rejects the idea of an ultimate ‘self’).

If you understand that rebirth is going on all the time, then you can eventually get a “real sense” of that.
The method is to begin with meditation, allowing thoughts to come and go without holding onto them, and the allowing the mind to just rest in natural awareness.

The confused understanding that perpetually arises occurs because of attachment to the thoughts that arise, which are expressions of the mistaken experience of a permanent ‘self’.

When you come to realize that the “person who you were” even a few moments ago no longer exists. That what you are experiencing at this very second is, what you might say, a very fresh (and almost but not quite identical) copy, then you see that death and rebirth has been going on the whole time. What is to be afraid of then?
Are you no longer afraid of death and what helped you the most with that in practical terms if I may ask?
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Re: How to get a reals sense of reincarnation being true? / Fear of death questions

Post by Budai »

Kili wrote: Sun Jan 31, 2021 4:17 pm Are you no longer afraid of death and what helped you the most with that in practical terms if I may ask?
The only Way to truly not fear death is to no longer truly fear living. Life is a process by which we approach everything in this world, and death should be treated with respect.
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Re: How to get a reals sense of reincarnation being true? / Fear of death questions

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

Kili wrote: Sun Jan 31, 2021 4:17 pmAre you no longer afraid of death and what helped you the most with that in practical terms if I may ask?
About a year and a half ago I was diagnosed with a slowly progressing lung disease. So, I think about death a lot. Actually, contemplating death and impermanence is a traditional Buddhist practice.

It’s funny that death seems so strange to people, because we are surrounded by death all the time. Not only do millions of the cells in the human body die every day, but death is in the food we eat. Leaves die and fall from trees every year.

But to answer your question: I felt I have led a very full life, and I am excited to find out what happens next. I am also interested in the experience of that exact moment (if there is one) when this body stops.

I also feel (or perhaps merely imagine) that in some ways “my work here is finished”, my illness is sort of burning off a lot of ‘bad karma’ (that’s actually a very simplistic and somewhat misleading way of putting it, but it gets the point across) and that having taken the Bodhisattva vow many years ago, perhaps in a way this is an indication that it’s time for me to wrap things up here and move on to the next rebirth (we are all reborn. Nothing special there). Or, maybe I’ve just watched the movie, Mary Poppins too many times.

Honestly, there’s no way to know if any of what Buddhism says about pure realms or rebirth or the bardo, if any of that is true. If it isn’t, and everything just ends, the it doesn’t matter. But I am also of the conviction (based on reasoning I have explained) that there’s a level of consciousness, or of mind, that doesn’t depend on the physical body. The brain is only a box full of neurological wiring. It doesn’t experience anything. So, I guess I’m placing my bets based on that.

Another thing to keep in mind, death may not be as good as life, but it’s the very next best thing, isn’t it?
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Re: How to get a reals sense of reincarnation being true? / Fear of death questions

Post by Kili »

PadmaVonSamba wrote: Sun Jan 31, 2021 6:26 pm
Kili wrote: Sun Jan 31, 2021 4:17 pmAre you no longer afraid of death and what helped you the most with that in practical terms if I may ask?
About a year and a half ago I was diagnosed with a slowly progressing lung disease. So, I think about death a lot. Actually, contemplating death and impermanence is a traditional Buddhist practice.

It’s funny that death seems so strange to people, because we are surrounded by death all the time. Not only do millions of the cells in the human body die every day, but death is in the food we eat. Leaves die and fall from trees every year.

But to answer your question: I felt I have led a very full life, and I am excited to find out what happens next. I am also interested in the experience of that exact moment (if there is one) when this body stops.

I also feel (or perhaps merely imagine) that in some ways “my work here is finished”, my illness is sort of burning off a lot of ‘bad karma’ (that’s actually a very simplistic and somewhat misleading way of putting it, but it gets the point across) and that having taken the Bodhisattva vow many years ago, perhaps in a way this is an indication that it’s time for me to wrap things up here and move on to the next rebirth (we are all reborn. Nothing special there). Or, maybe I’ve just watched the movie, Mary Poppins too many times.

Honestly, there’s no way to know if any of what Buddhism says about pure realms or rebirth or the bardo, if any of that is true. If it isn’t, and everything just ends, the it doesn’t matter. But I am also of the conviction (based on reasoning I have explained) that there’s a level of consciousness, or of mind, that doesn’t depend on the physical body. The brain is only a box full of neurological wiring. It doesn’t experience anything. So, I guess I’m placing my bets based on that.

Another thing to keep in mind, death may not be as good as life, but it’s the very next best thing, isn’t it?
Sorry to hear! May I ask in what way the illness is burning off bad kharma?

I am 30. I haven't really had a full life. Still I feel like it may end and I am terrified. I hope your illness will recede and not progress
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Re: How to get a reals sense of reincarnation being true? / Fear of death questions

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

Kili wrote: Sun Jan 31, 2021 7:37 pm
Sorry to hear! May I ask in what way the illness is burning off bad kharma?

I am 30. I haven't really had a full life. Still I feel like it may end and I am terrified. I hope your illness will recede and not progress
No need to feel sorry for me. You and I have the same chance of being run over by a truck tomorrow!

There is a view that when adverse conditions such as illness occurs, although unpleasant, it may be a good thing because if it is the result of previous unwholesome actions, such as in a past life, that it’s better to be “paying that off now” so to speak, when one has the opportunity to be practicing Dharma, rather than it being a cause for a subsequent rebirth in a lower realm later.
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Re: What is the best practice to lose your fear of dying?

Post by kirtu »

Kili wrote: Tue Jan 26, 2021 12:03 am What can you do to lose your fear of dying ? Is there a way to get a felt sense of its being nothing to fear?
Death is a transition. You are getting a lot of good advice here. You might want to look into Amitabha and/or Medicine Buddha practice.

Kirt
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Zen Master Seung Sahn said, “That’s simple. Atomic bombs come from the mind that likes this and doesn’t like that.”

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Re: How to get a reals sense of reincarnation being true? / Fear of death questions

Post by cjdevries »

There's a great book called "Healing into Life and Death" by Stephen Levine. He talks a lot about helping people to die. There's another book called "Deathing" written by Anya Foos-Graber that helps to train people how to die by giving them specific breathing exercises, meditations, relaxation exercises, and by learning to sense different energy fields in the body.
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Re: How to get a reals sense of reincarnation being true? / Fear of death questions

Post by FiveSkandhas »

All I can say is you can't force yourself to believe something, like whipping a donkey...after all, as master Foyan said, "you are the donkey."

I would say just put the issue aside for now and steep yourself in the Dharma, read Sutras and commentary and doctrine and Abhidharma and so on, keep practicing...maybe one day you will stumble across something on reincarnation and it will just seem a natural idea, something that fits splendedly with the rest of your learning and experience, just another thing that makes sense...

And don't fear death; much more horrific things can happen in life. I'm much more terrified of something like the agony of physical pain in life than I am by the idea of death per se.

But we can't necessarily control what we fear, can we? Nevertheless we can control our response to fear...I bet you already know how; Buddhism teaches us so many ways to become calmer. To stop gnawing on our conceptual bones for a while, and maybe when we come back to the same bone later, the urge to gnaw won't be so pressing...good luck
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Re: How to get a reals sense of reincarnation being true? / Fear of death questions

Post by avisitor »

Kili wrote: Tue Jan 26, 2021 12:03 am What can you do to lose your fear of dying ? Is there a way to get a felt sense of its being nothing to fear?
Kili wrote: Mon Jan 25, 2021 8:06 pm Is it possible to gain a real sense of reincarnation being true and if so through what practice?
Guessing you are looking for answers that come from your own experiences
Something to give you comfort or sense of continuation

My advice would be to put all your effort into finding a teacher and learning the truth of Buddha nature
Practice, practice, practice. Practice will not provide the answer. But without it, there is little chance.
Once you have opened your mind's eye then you will no longer be this person who is seeking comfort
And in this way, you will have personal confidence in the answer being real.
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Re: How to get a reals sense of reincarnation being true? / Fear of death questions

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svaha
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They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 1. (in english and sanskrit)
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Re: How to get a reals sense of reincarnation being true? / Fear of death questions

Post by reiun »

Cf. Jung's Theory of the Collective Unconscious: "According to Jung, the collective unconscious is made up of a collection of knowledge and imagery that every person is born with and is shared by all human beings due to ancestral experience."
https://www.verywellmind.com/what-is-th ... experience.

(Origin of Metempsychosis: "Marsilio Ficino ( Platonic Theology 17.3–4), for one, argued that Plato's references to metempsychosis were intended allegorically. In later Greek literature the doctrine appears from time to time; it is mentioned in a fragment of Menander (the Inspired Woman) and satirized by Lucian (Gallus 18 seq.).")

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metempsychosis
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Re: How to get a reals sense of reincarnation being true? / Fear of death questions

Post by Natan »

Kili wrote: Mon Jan 25, 2021 8:06 pm Is it possible to gain a real sense of reincarnation being true and if so through what practice?
You use reason. Skills, habits, etc., Happen over time. There's no other way. Our proclivities developed in the past. We have many it seems came with birth. But they must be things we are carrying with us from before. Guru Padmasambhava said we should understand what our past life was like by examining our present.
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