How to get a reals sense of reincarnation being true? / Fear of death questions

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Re: How to get a reals sense of reincarnation being true? / Fear of death questions

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Re: How to get a reals sense of reincarnation being true? / Fear of death questions

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Re: How to get a reals sense of reincarnation being true? / Fear of death questions

Post by Aemilius »

Image

from Ian Stevenson's book European Cases of Reincarnation Type
svaha
"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 1. (in english and sanskrit)
Toknow
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Re: How to get a reals sense of reincarnation being true? / Fear of death questions

Post by Toknow »

Hi Kili – How to form a sense of reality out of Reincarnation?
(If it’s OK wth you, I’ll use the term ‘rebirth’ – A reincarnate implies the person in question has an unchanging reality and hence ‘fixed’ soul or ‘self’. – (this fixed view of life I guess comes from the fact the ‘temporal’ aspect of matter gives one the idea of ‘permanence’). Also the reincarnation gives the impression a person is simply ‘put into’ the new life in the absences of constant change, causes, conditions and circumstances.)
Anyway, I’d like to firstly emphasize the ‘nature’ of phenomena and our lives from the Buddhist perspective. Phenomena has proven to be transitory, changing from moment to moment, even in its physical aspect. When examined by scientists at the subatomic level, its constituents arise from nowhere only to descent into a void – constituents may be of a certain character one moment only to be perceived as being of a different nature later on. Adding to the dilemma, each person perceives the same phenomena differently, implying there may be some ‘interplay’ between the mind and what it perceives. The quote “belief manifests itself in reality” suggests that what is perceived just may to some degree accord with the observer’s expectations. Finally, In a sense we can never really grasp the nature of phenomena for we ourselves are phenomena – and so it’s a case of an unknown trying to comprehend / analyse another unknown. Seems a little nonsensical.
Oh, I forgot to say I wish to emphasise the ‘elusive’ nature of life so that the ‘supposed impossibility’ of ‘rebirth’ becomes increasingly conceivable.
So phenomena and our lives appear to be a forever changing, evasive, non-substantial, inscrutable ‘something’ which defies all explanation. As one quote puts it, “Life is indeed an elusive reality that transcends the thoughts and concepts of existence and non-existence – it exhibits the qualities of both, but in essence, it is neither”
We tend to overlook life’s profundity, looking elsewhere for an ‘ultimate reality’ and / or source to life and death.
However, we all developed from something as small as a grain of sand (ie conception) into a fully grown adult. If we clone a cell of our body, which contains the entirety of our lives, we get a full sized copy (of course, it won’t be ‘perfect’).
{Just a few points to mention before ‘trying to accommodate ‘rebirth’- life inherently possesses its own desire to be – to flourish (eg ‘The flower grows towards the sun without having the mind to do so – I think another quote may be helpful – “Life physically pervades the universe and spiritually reaches all sentient beings”. And also (According to Buddhism) ‘one is all and all is one’ – ie our lives encompass the lives and environments of all others -similarly the past present and future are embodied in the present moment – (the abstract idea of time is considered illusory).
(ps Kili you don’t have to go with all this stuff – and it’s not all my own thinking – but I’m sure it will assist later when ‘rebirth’ comes up!)
At first glance, these things seem unimaginable, but when one considers that the ‘nature’ of phenomena, and hence our lives, is similarly unimaginable, inscrutable and infinitely profound, we can I feel gain new insight into many of life’s mysteries.
So with all this in mind, I’d like to say that karma is nothing more than the cumulative effect (negative and positive) of what one thinks, says and does from moment to moment. When one passes away (life and ‘death’ being considered 2 sides of the same coin) our life ‘flows’ on to another one via the effects of karma which transcends our physical demise. I guess you could say that the karma represents a kind of non-substantial ‘blue print’ of our existences) – these aspects disperse throughout the universe, but still remain as potentials in all life and environments- they say they exist as ‘potentials’ in a void state often called ‘ku’ (you may know all this stuff anyway) – which one scholar names the ‘immortal sea’. But still way beyond ordinary understanding, you still inherently possess the ability to arise as a life form (obviously without knowing it – ie life’s ‘wish’ to be). This void state still embraces the physical aspect of life – so the (Mahayana Buddhism) idea is that you yourself (unknowingly of course) bring yourself into the phenomenal world once more through fertilizing the male and female sex cells of a couple conceiving. My own feeling is that you are ‘induced from within’ to be again, whilst you are ‘yearned for’ from without (through the conception of your ‘new’ parents’). So both forces I feel are responsible for your emerging ‘from the void’ to take on perceivable form. (This is generally the idea, anyway).
It is interesting to note that, according to Buddhism, neither the male nor female sex cells alone are sufficient for the birth of a child. It requires a third component to unite the two cells and you are the component. I forgot to mention your ‘you’ in the state of void, however defined, is attracted, (again like the flower growing toward the sun) to that particular male and female most closely matching your physical, spiritual, emotional etc characteristics. But though you may match them in many ways, I believe, despite this rough analysis and description of events, that there will be a very large part of you that cannot be solely attributable to your parents. That is the part of you, your ‘previous’ life.
However, it is my own feeling that you will have no recollection of a previous life (and of course, you will not look like you do currently, even though you will have ‘evolved’ from your current self) – you will like most assume this new life is the only one you had – but your ‘you’ never leaves you. You had a ‘me’ in your previous existence, and now you have another ‘me’ – you will always have your ‘me’ from one birth to another, and I guess that the idea of ever having another ‘me’ will be hard to imagine – this is why I’m going to order the book that another post kindly mentioned, “Children Who Remember Previous Lives” – a question of Reincarnation – Ian Stevenson, MD”. Though I do not believe in reincarnation in the traditional usual use of the word, (a lot depends on definition, I guess)
The book may give me some insight one way or another.
I’m sorry this has been a long post – but I felt I had to give some time to emphasise the incomprehensible nature of phenomena so that when it came time to consider the way Mahayana Buddhists talk of rebirth, it would not seem so inconceivable – so ‘other worldly’
Finishing up, another way I try to arouse some trust in the idea of rebirth is to look at all the different people who are born. Some born missing limbs, some born ill, some born in war zones – whilst others growing into good looking, intelligent, gifted people born into happy families. These either ‘blessings’ or ‘afflictions’ did not arise in their current lives. And similarly the parents of such children surely cannot be held solely responsible. In my opinion the causes of such ‘good’ or ‘unfortunate’ karma were made in ‘previous’ lives.
Regards
Toknow
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Re: How to get a reals sense of reincarnation being true? / Fear of death questions

Post by Natan »

I read recently an article from Scientific American which I thought was cogent and also in agreement with Buddha. The best any scientist can say is agnostic about life after death. That consciousness is just physical is not proven any more than has a soul. Buddha gave a teaching to some gamblers and told them rebirth is a good wager as is disciplining oneself toward good karma, because you can be rewarded with peace in this life and a good wager you will in the next life. It's a good wager bc even if there is no next life you still protected yourself in this life.
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Re: How to get a reals sense of reincarnation being true? / Fear of death questions

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

Not believing in rebirth ultimately rests on referring to an actual ‘self’ that isn’t reborn.

Since Buddhism rejects this “self” and instead posits that what arises as appearances are is a beginningless stream of cause-and-effect situations, there is no reason to doubt rebirth, nor to regard a transition between “lifetimes” and the transition from one moment to the next as substantially different, although the conditions for what is experienced are different because the causes for what is experienced are different, just as as gentle waves constantly washing the shore are different from a tsunami.
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Re: How to get a reals sense of reincarnation being true? / Fear of death questions

Post by Aemilius »

States and nations are based on the existence of persons or citizens. You too have a nationality, which is a basis for identification or self-grasping. Like for example "I am american" or "I am african" etc... This identity or self-grasping is the normal state of affairs even in Buddhism. We have for example Shariputra, who is a different person from Mahakashyapa and so on...
The Yogacara teaching of Three natures or three svabhavas or true existences describes this more accurately: the nominal existence or parikalpita svabhava is also a kind of svabhava, i.e. a true existence. This expresses what actually exists in the world, in the society of human beings, that is to say there are individuals who have names and identities, and identification numbers (and letters).
svaha
"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 1. (in english and sanskrit)
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Re: How to get a reals sense of reincarnation being true? / Fear of death questions

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

Aemilius wrote: Wed Sep 01, 2021 12:13 pm
States and nations are based on the existence of persons or citizens. You too have a nationality, which is a basis for identification or self-grasping. Like for example "I am american" or "I am african" etc... This identity or self-grasping is the normal state of affairs even in Buddhism. We have for example Shariputra, who is a different person from Mahakashyapa and so on...
The Yogacara teaching of Three natures or three svabhavas or true existences describes this more accurately: the nominal existence or parikalpita svabhava is also a kind of svabhava, i.e. a true existence. This expresses what actually exists in the world, in the society of human beings, that is to say there are individuals who have names and identities, and identification numbers (and letters).
Shariputra is a different person from Mahakashyapa not because either of them retains an essential, unchanging self. The Mississippi River is likewise different from the Nile River, but at no time is either river unchanging. You can’t stand in the same river twice (or, as Malcom pointed out, not even once). What are called Shariputra and Mahakashyapa are simply different streams of aggregates, different cause-and-effect sequences.

Also, the truth about states and nations is that they are purely creations of the imagination. If this were not true, there would be no border disputes. Everything would be settled. No new countries could come into existence. But When the Earth is seen in its entirety (from space) there are no borders. No dotted lines.

Likewise, the “self” only exists as an experience based on a concept. Otherwise, people wouldn’t spend their lives asking “who am I? What is my purpose?”

Having a passport or drivers licence doesn’t prove that there is an ultimate “me” that exists. It only shows that a relatively recent accumulation of aggregates can be represented on paper or plastic.

The question is whether or not an individual essence (atman) exists, unchanging, which occupies one body after another, lifetime after lifetime,

…or whether it is simply a constant flow of various causes and conditions that produce appearances which replicate (to one degree or another) the previously arising “appearance” (of being) moment-to-moment, or lifetime to lifetime.

Moment to moment, for example, your hair color doesn’t appear to change, because the causes of that color are identical to what they were a minute ago. But those causes also change, the result being that eventually so does the color of hair.

Lifetime to lifetime, whatever processes are set into motion now are the causes for future arising a to occur, which have nothing to do with the constantly changing (and dying) body. It’s not that there is the “same person” picking up where they left off.

It’s more the case of setting into motion things which we categorize as “greed” or “anger” or whatever (which are also imputations, like national borders) and someone is born after we die, who experiences the fruition of that process.

It’s the experience of that fruition that designates such person as the one who created the karma to begin with. Sort of retro-fitting, you might say. We can conveniently say “this thing happening now is the result of my previous karma” but “my” is just an imputation.

But again, because there is no actual “self”, what flows from one lifetime to another can neither be said to be the same being, nor an entirely different being, because both options are based on the idea of ‘atman’.
EMPTIFUL.
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Re: How to get a reals sense of reincarnation being true? / Fear of death questions

Post by Aemilius »

PadmaVonSamba wrote: Wed Sep 01, 2021 12:43 pm
Aemilius wrote: Wed Sep 01, 2021 12:13 pm
States and nations are based on the existence of persons or citizens. You too have a nationality, which is a basis for identification or self-grasping. Like for example "I am american" or "I am african" etc... This identity or self-grasping is the normal state of affairs even in Buddhism. We have for example Shariputra, who is a different person from Mahakashyapa and so on...
The Yogacara teaching of Three natures or three svabhavas or true existences describes this more accurately: the nominal existence or parikalpita svabhava is also a kind of svabhava, i.e. a true existence. This expresses what actually exists in the world, in the society of human beings, that is to say there are individuals who have names and identities, and identification numbers (and letters).
Shariputra is a different person from Mahakashyapa not because either of them retains an essential, unchanging self. The Mississippi River is likewise different from the Nile River, but at no time is either river unchanging. You can’t stand in the same river twice (or, as Malcom pointed out, not even once). What are called Shariputra and Mahakashyapa are simply different streams of aggregates, different cause-and-effect sequences.

Also, the truth about states and nations is that they are purely creations of the imagination. If this were not true, there would be no border disputes. Everything would be settled. No new countries could come into existence. But When the Earth is seen in its entirety (from space) there are no borders. No dotted lines.

Likewise, the “self” only exists as an experience based on a concept. Otherwise, people wouldn’t spend their lives asking “who am I? What is my purpose?”

Having a passport or drivers licence doesn’t prove that there is an ultimate “me” that exists. It only shows that a relatively recent accumulation of aggregates can be represented on paper or plastic.

The question is whether or not an individual essence (atman) exists, unchanging, which occupies one body after another, lifetime after lifetime,
Borders began to exist in the evolution of species on this planet long before there were humans. They are called territories, the different species, or groups or individuals within a species, have taken control over territories and they continue to guard their own territories. I am not claiming an absolute existence for states, nations, territories or species, claiming such would be nonsensical. In the real world things like states etc come into being, they exist and they cease to exist. No sane person would claim any nonsensical 'absolute' existence of them.
svaha
"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 1. (in english and sanskrit)
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Re: What is the best practice to lose your fear of dying?

Post by Manwon »

Kili wrote: Tue Jan 26, 2021 12:03 am What can you do to lose your fear of dying ? Is there a way to get a felt sense of its being nothing to fear?
From my experience few actually fear death itself, most fear the manner in which death may take them. I was severely injured in the Middle East, I died in route to the Hospital and was and later awoke in Germany in a Military Hospital. As I was dying and before I lost consciousness I had a truly peaceful feeling as I was slipping away, I had no fear, my life didn't pass before me. I just felt comfortable and relaxed I as did not feel any pain at that point. Then everything went black and I have no memory until I woke up in the Hospital. I do remember just before the accident occurred and the experience and pain when the I was in was hit by an IED. At that point did experience fear, and pain but as I transitioned from living to death all I felt was peace as my consciousness slipped away! :smile:

:namaste:
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Re: How to get a reals sense of reincarnation being true? / Fear of death questions

Post by Natan »

Kili wrote: Mon Jan 25, 2021 8:06 pm Is it possible to gain a real sense of reincarnation being true and if so through what practice?
Thru the practice of Vajrayana generally, the signs often confirm what the texts say about bardo. The Yangti dark retreat is probably what deals most directly with bardo visions.
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Re: How to get a reals sense of reincarnation being true? / Fear of death questions

Post by Tolya M »

Some body has always been there, because now you have inferential knowledge*.

The presence of inferential knowledge now speaks of the logical necessity of past experience with the same inferential knowledge. Inferential knowledge speaks of the logical necessity of the process of abstraction. The process of abstraction speaks of the logical necessity of what to abstract from (i.e. different channels of perception or different thoughts with the content of these channels of perception). And this reasoning is applicable indefinitely to any past moment.

In fact, the most interesting proof is that the future will inevitably come, just as it always happened in the infinite past.
Once I described in more detail the theses from Dharmottara's comments to Dharmakirti's Nyaya-bindu about "a child reaching for its mother's breast." :smile:

This may alleviate the fear of death, but it certainly will not alleviate discomfort before the death of the body or the fear of a bad rebirth.
_______________________________________________________________________________________________

*"inferential knowledge" - is not logically correct knowledge, but in general any relative to concepts, even if there is associative-thinking bullsh*t.
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Re: How to get a reals sense of reincarnation being true? / Fear of death questions

Post by pemachophel »

In terms of gaining faith in reincarnation, there are a number of practices for remembering one's past lives. You may also be lucky enough for your Teacher, either through divination or ngonshe/intuition/wisdom to tell you what one or more of your past lives were. Of course, from a Buddhist POV, these lives weren't "you" since there is no you. But it is possible to identify past incarnations of the mind-stream we call I, me, mine.
Pema Chophel པདྨ་ཆོས་འཕེལ
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Re: How to get a reals sense of reincarnation being true? / Fear of death questions

Post by Aemilius »

pemachophel wrote: Sun Aug 13, 2023 11:18 pm In terms of gaining faith in reincarnation, there are a number of practices for remembering one's past lives. You may also be lucky enough for your Teacher, either through divination or ngonshe/intuition/wisdom to tell you what one or more of your past lives were. Of course, from a Buddhist POV, these lives weren't "you" since there is no you. But it is possible to identify past incarnations of the mind-stream we call I, me, mine.
from Nagarjuna's Mulamadhyamaka Karika

Investigation of Views
...

9. It is incorrect to say: "I did not occur at a time in the past." Whatever
occurred before, this is not other than that.

10. If this were other, it would arise even without that. Likewise, that
could remain and be born without dying in that former life.

11. Cut off and actions wasted, acts committed by others would be
experienced by someone else. Such would be the consequences.

12. There is no occurrence from what has not occurred. In that case
faults would follow: the self would be something made or even though
it occurred it would be uncaused.

13. Therefore, "the self occurred, did not occur, both or neither:" all
those views of the past are invalid.

14. "I will occur at another time in the future," "I will not occur:" all
those views are similar to those of the past.


Verses from the Center By Nagarjuna
Literal English Translation of the Tibetan Text by Stephen Batchelor
svaha
"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 1. (in english and sanskrit)
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