Why is there no section about Mahayana Monastic life?

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tkp67
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Re: Why is there no section about Mahayana Monastic life?

Post by tkp67 »

:good:

I have always felt as if monastic life acted as a sort of storehouse for the lay practitioner world. i.e. a portion of the population serving this purpose allows for the rest to apply it in lay life without a loss of teaching source.

Would be nice to make use of that synergy online but I have no idea how that would look past any existing framework.
Fortyeightvows
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Re: Why is there no section about Mahayana Monastic life?

Post by Fortyeightvows »

But is it our job to judge their behaviour
There is a good case that it is actually the job of the senior monastics to judge their behavior
Malcolm
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Re: Why is there no section about Mahayana Monastic life?

Post by Malcolm »

Grigoris wrote: Sat Jul 11, 2020 10:23 am
But is it our job to judge their behaviour...?
Yup, since that is one of the reasons the Buddha began to institute all these rules. If he had lived to be a 100, there would have been a thousand rules, not merely 250+-.
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Re: Why is there no section about Mahayana Monastic life?

Post by Queequeg »

Malcolm wrote: Sat Jul 11, 2020 12:44 pm
Grigoris wrote: Sat Jul 11, 2020 10:23 am
But is it our job to judge their behaviour...?
Yup, since that is one of the reasons the Buddha began to institute all these rules. If he had lived to be a 100, there would have been a thousand rules, not merely 250+-.
Well, only because there will always be monks looking for ways to skirt the basic principles. "No sex." "Sex with a man?" "No sex with a man." "Sex with my hand?" "No sex with your hand." "Sex with a pillow" "No sex with a pillow." "Sex with a monkey?" "No sex with a monkey." and on and on. Buddha didn't want to make prescriptive rules. He only made rules after someone behaved unacceptably. In the beginning, I guess when his followers were few and hardcore, they didn't need rules to tell them how to behave properly. Later, when the Sangha grew, I guess some people who didn't get it started becoming monks on mass and the Buddha had to tell them what not to do.

But, to add to the main point, one of the reasons the Buddha gave for the promulgation of the rules was to make a good impression on the lay community.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
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LastLegend
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Re: Why is there no section about Mahayana Monastic life?

Post by LastLegend »

Grigoris wrote: Fri Jul 10, 2020 6:54 pm You know how many monastics have come through this site over the years?

You know why they leave?

Because they do not receive the respect they deserve.
Not just this website. They can’t stand the real samsara.
It’s eye blinking.
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Re: Why is there no section about Mahayana Monastic life?

Post by Malcolm »

Queequeg wrote: Sat Jul 11, 2020 1:04 pm But, to add to the main point, one of the reasons the Buddha gave for the promulgation of the rules was to make a good impression on the lay community.
Yup.
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Re: Why is there no section about Mahayana Monastic life?

Post by Könchok Thrinley »

I don't know why monastics should have their own special place here. Not because I do not want them here, quite frankly it would be cool to see it from their point of view, but why create separate place for them? To share laundry tips and tricks? Maybe share details of a special coffee cake recipe for ordained only?

AFAIK there is only one or two people who have a full ordination. It would make more sense to create LGBT corner, or ngakpa corner.
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For those who do non-virtuous actions,
that becomes suffering indeed.

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Ayu
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Re: Why is there no section about Mahayana Monastic life?

Post by Ayu »

One difficulty is how to avoid frauds. Any person could introduce themself as ordained in order to gain more respect and attention. It's not easy to verify the identity of newly registered users.
A real venerable has to face some suspicion from the crowd, if he comes to post in our new subforum.
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Re: Why is there no section about Mahayana Monastic life?

Post by Chanh Dao »

I get the impression and it makes sense that in general western buddhists feel that the Monastic aspect of buddhism Is a bit mystical, foreign, or in some cases defiled.

Regardless of how lay people feel about Monastics in the buddhist framework the matter of fact is that the Monastic community is inseparable from Buddhist tradition. In fact the Sangha representing the Monastic Sangha is one of the three jewels people take refuge in when becoming Buddhist.

To respond to some people talking about lay people's judgments towards monks and that responsibility sure lay people can choose not to support monks but lay people do not have any authority outside of supporting or withdrawing support from within the Monastic community.



My idea is very simple. That if like DhammaWheel there is a section devoted to monasticism and ordination it will be more convenient and direct way to bridge the gap between westerners and Monastics which I think it's quite important in the modern time.

Also to respond to the person talking about it would make more sense to have an LGBT section. Sure have that.

But taking refuge in the LGBT community is not apart of becoming a buddhist and it's not an integral part of Buddhism as a religion.

Also I'll be open that I am a fully ordained Monk.
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Re: Why is there no section about Mahayana Monastic life?

Post by Ayu »

Chanh Dao wrote: Sun Jul 12, 2020 6:59 am I get the impression and it makes sense that in general western buddhists feel that the Monastic aspect of buddhism Is a bit mystical, foreign, or in some cases defiled.
I'm sorry, you perceive it this way. I never met buddhists who do not generally respect ordained people. This criticism comes rather from non-buddhists who like to question Buddhism as a whole. Monks and nuns are the core of Buddhism and if you want to disparrage Buddhism it's a good idea to disparrage the ordained firstly.
Chanh Dao wrote: Sun Jul 12, 2020 6:59 am Regardless of how lay people feel about Monastics in the buddhist framework the matter of fact is that the Monastic community is inseparable from Buddhist tradition. In fact the Sangha representing the Monastic Sangha is one of the three jewels people take refuge in when becoming Buddhist.
...
I think, nobody questions that here. Rather the relevant question is: Must it really be another subforum (probably without much traffic) on this Mahayana board?
I think, if we say "Yes", it would have to be different from the section on Dhammawheel. We have less monasteries and more married teachers who are not less venerable.

And we'd need some ordained users to controll such a subforum, who are a least ready to read it regularily and report wrong posts. We lay mods often cannot know who is talking nonsense about Vinaya. Is it allowed to chat about Vinaya at all?

And if you say you are ordained: what do you think how can a new user verify their identity? There are thousands of fake accounts at facebook. How do they manage this problem over at Dhammawheel?
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Re: Why is there no section about Mahayana Monastic life?

Post by Fortyeightvows »

Is it allowed to chat about Vinaya at all?
An important question. At least according to Malcolm in his last posts it is
And if you say you are ordained: what do you think how can a new user verify their identity? There are thousands of fake accounts at facebook. How do they manage this problem over at Dhammawheel?
Because the identity of the user, any user should not be the thing being scrutinized. Just the posts itself.

So whether a person is a monastic or not, we only assess the post being made.
Then, if a the person makes a claim, there is no need to make a claim about themselves, it is just the words they type that are scrutinized
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Re: Why is there no section about Mahayana Monastic life?

Post by Ayu »

Fortyeightvows wrote: Sun Jul 12, 2020 8:13 am ...
And if you say you are ordained: what do you think how can a new user verify their identity? There are thousands of fake accounts at facebook. How do they manage this problem over at Dhammawheel?
Because the identity of the user, any user should not be the thing being scrutinized. Just the posts itself.

So whether a person is a monastic or not, we only assess the post being made.
Then, if a the person makes a claim, there is no need to make a claim about themselves, it is just the words they type that are scrutinized
You innocent minds who are not able to look behind the curtains of moderation have a light heart regarding this problem. You don't know, what we have seen. :smile:

If a person claims to be ordained - and they try to receive special importance and try to give their statements more weight than other's due to this claim? How to verify?
If they say "I'm a monk and the Vinaya of my lineage says this and that..." - how to verify? If a person possesses this criminal energy to spread wrong ideas, vast theories of fake realities are able to be established.
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Re: Why is there no section about Mahayana Monastic life?

Post by Chanh Dao »

I think it's fair to say that there are a variety of subforums here that have little to no traffic.

In terms of moderation I would encourage the mods and the general public to judge posts etc by content, not whether or not someone is ordained.

I don't see why anyone would not be free to discuss vinaya.

I don't think that Mahayana having married monks is an issue at all. Also I don't think it would need to be controlled by monastics, the moderation.

If people are suspicious that's fine but in truth there are hundreds of thousands of monks. Whether someone is really a monk or impersonating one shouldn't cause all that much trouble. Especially on a text based forum such as this.

If you really wanted to check about people than there could be a private dialogue with one of the more experienced admins etc where they can request evidence or proof that someone is actually a monk.

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Re: Why is there no section about Mahayana Monastic life?

Post by Chanh Dao »

Ayu wrote: Sun Jul 12, 2020 8:25 am
Fortyeightvows wrote: Sun Jul 12, 2020 8:13 am ...
And if you say you are ordained: what do you think how can a new user verify their identity? There are thousands of fake accounts at facebook. How do they manage this problem over at Dhammawheel?
Because the identity of the user, any user should not be the thing being scrutinized. Just the posts itself.

So whether a person is a monastic or not, we only assess the post being made.
Then, if a the person makes a claim, there is no need to make a claim about themselves, it is just the words they type that are scrutinized
You innocent minds who are not able to look behind the curtains of moderation have a light heart regarding this problem. You don't know, what we have seen. :smile:

If a person claims to be ordained - and they try to receive special importance and try to give their statements more weight than other's due to this claim? How to verify?
If they say "I'm a monk and the Vinaya of my lineage says this and that..." - how to verify? If a person possesses this criminal energy to spread wrong ideas, vast theories of fake realities are able to be established.
Also it's something of a very natural phenomenon that takes place when interacting with the Monastic community.

Here online, sure could be anonymous, who knows who is a monk or not etc. But in real life situation a monk is always in uniform. Has no off time. So it's a situation where the weight of that person's comments need to be judged according to the comments themselves. Not just because they happen to be a monk.
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Re: Why is there no section about Mahayana Monastic life?

Post by Grigoris »

Chanh Dao wrote: Sun Jul 12, 2020 9:04 amI don't think that Mahayana having married monks is an issue at all.
According to which Vinaya do you base your opinion?
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Re: Why is there no section about Mahayana Monastic life?

Post by Malcolm »

Chanh Dao wrote: Sun Jul 12, 2020 9:04 am
I don't think that Mahayana having married monks is an issue at all.
It is not an issue, since it is not permitted.
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Re: Why is there no section about Mahayana Monastic life?

Post by Chanh Dao »

Grigoris wrote: Sun Jul 12, 2020 12:21 pm
Chanh Dao wrote: Sun Jul 12, 2020 9:04 amI don't think that Mahayana having married monks is an issue at all.
According to which Vinaya do you base your opinion?
Many married monks in Japan and also I believe there is a sect in Korea where the monks can marry.

They do not ordain under a vinaya that prohibits them from marriage.

Japan is the main place where you will find monks that are married. It's common in the Zen tradition and others in Japan.
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Re: Why is there no section about Mahayana Monastic life?

Post by Ayu »

Chanh Dao wrote: Sun Jul 12, 2020 12:58 pm
Grigoris wrote: Sun Jul 12, 2020 12:21 pm
Chanh Dao wrote: Sun Jul 12, 2020 9:04 amI don't think that Mahayana having married monks is an issue at all.
According to which Vinaya do you base your opinion?
Many married monks in Japan and also I believe there is a sect in Korea where the monks can marry.

They do not ordain under a vinaya that prohibits them from marriage.

Japan is the main place where you will find monks that are married. It's common in the Zen tradition and others in Japan.
Maybe it's a mutual missunderstanding due to language? I assume, they would accept your statement, if you wrote priests instead of monks?

In my language we also say "zen monk" if we mean married zen-priests.
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Re: Why is there no section about Mahayana Monastic life?

Post by Chanh Dao »

In Buddhism traditionally there is no discrimination between monk and priest.

In Thailand for example the monk hospital is "Priest hospital"

I personally don't discriminate between married monks and non-married monks.

In Japan many monks are married so... I understand there is a difference but I accept them as monks.
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Re: Why is there no section about Mahayana Monastic life?

Post by Lobsang Chojor »

Chanh Dao wrote: Sun Jul 12, 2020 1:28 pm In Buddhism traditionally there is no discrimination between monk and priest.
That's because prior to the 20th century the different schools never met, a Thai Bhikshu wouldn't have met a zen priest for example.
In Thailand for example the monk hospital is "Priest hospital"
That's because in English Catholic Priests are celibate whereas a Protestant who isn't celibate is called a vicar.
I personally don't discriminate between married monks and non-married monks.

In Japan many monks are married so... I understand there is a difference but I accept them as monks.
Japanese Priests are not Bhikshu or sramanera and therefore are not monks because of not holding the vinaya. In the same way Tibetan Ngakpas aren't monks because they don't hold monastic vows.

The insistence on being called monks has caused trouble with conferences between Theravadin Bhikshus and Tibetan Bhikshus, as they believe mahayana practitioners aren't celibate.
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