Why is there no section about Mahayana Monastic life?

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Chanh Dao
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Why is there no section about Mahayana Monastic life?

Post by Chanh Dao »

The subject pretty much clears it up.

Coming from Dhammawheel.net I was expecting that there would be a similar section for Monastic community here in the forum.
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Queequeg
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Re: Why is there no section about Mahayana Monastic life?

Post by Queequeg »

As much as we might benefit from monastics participating here... I would not want them sullied with our off color humor. I'd like to promote their purity, not defile them by dragging them into it.

:toilet:
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
Chanh Dao
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Re: Why is there no section about Mahayana Monastic life?

Post by Chanh Dao »

Sadhu, Sadhu, Sadhu.

However be mindful some Mahayana aspirants may also have the interest in Monastic life.

Setting up a place to make accessible communication between them and Monastics is quite good~
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Ayu
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Re: Why is there no section about Mahayana Monastic life?

Post by Ayu »

Communication between lay people and monastic people is not restricted at DW.

Please just start a thread in the subforum "Mahayana" and see how many monastics drop in for a chat with us lay people. ;)
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Grigoris
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Re: Why is there no section about Mahayana Monastic life?

Post by Grigoris »

You know how many monastics have come through this site over the years?

You know why they leave?

Because they do not receive the respect they deserve.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
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Malcolm
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Re: Why is there no section about Mahayana Monastic life?

Post by Malcolm »

Grigoris wrote: Fri Jul 10, 2020 6:54 pm
Because they do not receive the respect they deserve.
Their clothes might deserve respect, but not necessarily the people in the clothes.
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Re: Why is there no section about Mahayana Monastic life?

Post by Malcolm »

Queequeg wrote: Fri Jul 10, 2020 4:24 pm As much as we might benefit from monastics participating here... I would not want them sullied with our off color humor. I'd like to promote their purity, not defile them by dragging them into it.

:toilet:
Mud, lotus. If they are real śrāmeneras, they will flourish, not be stained.
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Grigoris
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Re: Why is there no section about Mahayana Monastic life?

Post by Grigoris »

Malcolm wrote: Fri Jul 10, 2020 7:26 pm
Grigoris wrote: Fri Jul 10, 2020 6:54 pm
Because they do not receive the respect they deserve.
Their clothes might deserve respect, but not necessarily the people in the clothes.
You of all people know how difficult it is to uphold the monastic precepts, anybody capable of doing so deserves a degree of respect.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
Fortyeightvows
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Lay people studying vinaya

Post by Fortyeightvows »

I was actually going to ask this on this site later on, but now this thread started I will ask now, because I think it is relevant to if there is a forum about monastic life.

I grew up having heard that lay people shouldn't study vinaya.
But now that I'm an adult I discover that so much commonly known information comes from the vinaya. And one lay teacher of mine said it's fine for lay people to study the vinaya and that there is no rule against it.

So mys questions,
Is there really a rule, like a written rule, about lay people studying vinaya?
Bristollad
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Re: Lay people studying vinaya

Post by Bristollad »

Fortyeightvows wrote: Fri Jul 10, 2020 8:12 pm I was actually going to ask this on this site later on, but now this thread started I will ask now, because I think it is relevant to if there is a forum about monastic life.

I grew up having heard that lay people shouldn't study vinaya.
But now that I'm an adult I discover that so much commonly known information comes from the vinaya. And one lay teacher of mine said it's fine for lay people to study the vinaya and that there is no rule against it.

So mys questions,
Is there really a rule, like a written rule, about lay people studying vinaya?
All three geshes I've received Vinaya teachings from have said that such is the rule. During sojong (the fortnightly repairing of vows), even the novices aren't allowed to attend or listen to the fully ordained section. One of the geshes though did allow novices who were soon to take full ordination to read the vows of the fully ordained in preparation. However, the study and discussion of them still had to wait until after full ordination. There seems to be a lot more of the Theravadin material available in translation than from the Mulasarvastivadin Vinaya (followed by the Tibetan traditions). I don't know about the Dharmagupta Vinaya material. There are two books from the Dalai Lama on the vows of the novice, and on the vows of the fully-ordained. In the front of the novices' book, it says it is restricted to those who have received novice ordination. The other book for fully-ordained has a similar notice restricting it to those who are fully ordained.
The antidote—to be free from the suffering of samsara—you need to be free from delusion and karma; you need to be free from ignorance, the root of samsara. So you need to meditate on emptiness. That is what you need. Lama Zopa Rinpoche
Fortyeightvows
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Re: Why is there no section about Mahayana Monastic life?

Post by Fortyeightvows »

I know it’s a tradition, but I guess I was wondering more If the vinaya texts themselves say they should only be read.
You cite those books with the note at the beginning. But I don’t think that is exactly the same.

Either way, if there is agreement that lay people shouldn’t study vinaya, then a section of the forum for it wouldn’t make sense.

I guess the other thing to keep in mind is that the categories of lay people and ordained are not fixed. Lots of lay people used to be ordained and some guys even ordain again. It’s always been that way. So no matter what tradition says, there are many laypeople who are very knowledgeable about monastic practice.
Malcolm
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Re: Why is there no section about Mahayana Monastic life?

Post by Malcolm »

Grigoris wrote: Fri Jul 10, 2020 7:30 pm
Malcolm wrote: Fri Jul 10, 2020 7:26 pm
Grigoris wrote: Fri Jul 10, 2020 6:54 pm
Because they do not receive the respect they deserve.
Their clothes might deserve respect, but not necessarily the people in the clothes.
You of all people know how difficult it is to uphold the monastic precepts, anybody capable of doing so deserves a degree of respect.
That’s actually my point. Most people in robes, whether Tibetan or Western, are complete failures when it comes to maintaining their vows. Hence my comment about respecting the clothes, but not necessarily the person.
Malcolm
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Re: Lay people studying vinaya

Post by Malcolm »

Bristollad wrote: Fri Jul 10, 2020 9:17 pm
Fortyeightvows wrote: Fri Jul 10, 2020 8:12 pm I was actually going to ask this on this site later on, but now this thread started I will ask now, because I think it is relevant to if there is a forum about monastic life.

I grew up having heard that lay people shouldn't study vinaya.
But now that I'm an adult I discover that so much commonly known information comes from the vinaya. And one lay teacher of mine said it's fine for lay people to study the vinaya and that there is no rule against it.

So mys questions,
Is there really a rule, like a written rule, about lay people studying vinaya?
All three geshes I've received Vinaya teachings from have said that such is the rule. During sojong (the fortnightly repairing of vows), even the novices aren't allowed to attend or listen to the fully ordained section. One of the geshes though did allow novices who were soon to take full ordination to read the vows of the fully ordained in preparation. However, the study and discussion of them still had to wait until after full ordination. There seems to be a lot more of the Theravadin material available in translation than from the Mulasarvastivadin Vinaya (followed by the Tibetan traditions). I don't know about the Dharmagupta Vinaya material. There are two books from the Dalai Lama on the vows of the novice, and on the vows of the fully-ordained. In the front of the novices' book, it says it is restricted to those who have received novice ordination. The other book for fully-ordained has a similar notice restricting it to those who are fully ordained.
Just a strategy to keep upasakas, etc., ignorant. It’s bullshit. Vinaya was compiled long after after the Buddha’s passing, This is why there are so many different ones, with different rules, rites, and so on, and most of the vinaya rules were instituted by the Buddha because lay people complained about this or that bhiksu’s behavior. Thus Vinaya should be studied by Upasakas to keep the Shramaneras honest.
Fortyeightvows
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Re: Lay people studying vinaya

Post by Fortyeightvows »

Malcolm wrote: Fri Jul 10, 2020 11:08 pm Just a strategy to keep upasakas, etc., ignorant. It’s bullshit. Vinaya was compiled long after after the Buddha’s passing, This is why there are so many different ones, with different rules, rites, and so on, and most of the vinaya rules were instituted by the Buddha because lay people complained about this or that bhiksu’s behavior. Thus Vinaya should be studied by Upasakas to keep the Shramaneras honest.
That was basically what my teacher said, that it wasn't really a rule, just something that people discouraged for their own reasons.

I'll also add that so much commonly known and commonly discussed things are covered in the vinaya. Those texts are great resources for learning about the first and second council, the lives of the early disciples, etc.
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Re: Why is there no section about Mahayana Monastic life?

Post by Fortyeightvows »

Queequeg wrote: Fri Jul 10, 2020 4:24 pm As much as we might benefit from monastics participating here... I would not want them sullied with our off color humor. I'd like to promote their purity, not defile them by dragging them into it.
If that is the case, then should we really have "off color humor" ?
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Queequeg
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Re: Why is there no section about Mahayana Monastic life?

Post by Queequeg »

Fortyeightvows wrote: Sat Jul 11, 2020 2:54 am
Queequeg wrote: Fri Jul 10, 2020 4:24 pm As much as we might benefit from monastics participating here... I would not want them sullied with our off color humor. I'd like to promote their purity, not defile them by dragging them into it.
If that is the case, then should we really have "off color humor" ?
That response itself was 90% joke. If I could have altered the colors, I would have. Because.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
Fortyeightvows
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Re: Why is there no section about Mahayana Monastic life?

Post by Fortyeightvows »

I get that is was half joke.
But it still points to something
Charlie123
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Re: Lay people studying vinaya

Post by Charlie123 »

Fortyeightvows wrote: Fri Jul 10, 2020 8:12 pm I was actually going to ask this on this site later on, but now this thread started I will ask now, because I think it is relevant to if there is a forum about monastic life.

I grew up having heard that lay people shouldn't study vinaya.
But now that I'm an adult I discover that so much commonly known information comes from the vinaya. And one lay teacher of mine said it's fine for lay people to study the vinaya and that there is no rule against it.

So mys questions,
Is there really a rule, like a written rule, about lay people studying vinaya?
Khandro Rinpoche has strongly encouraged lay people to study the Vinaya so that they can clearly identify when gurus are acting inappropriately. It is still relevant even in the case of lay gurus. Basically, the same thing that Malcolm said above.
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Re: Why is there no section about Mahayana Monastic life?

Post by Bristollad »

Fortyeightvows wrote: Fri Jul 10, 2020 10:23 pm I know it’s a tradition, but I guess I was wondering more If the vinaya texts themselves say they should only be read.
You cite those books with the note at the beginning. But I don’t think that is exactly the same.

Either way, if there is agreement that lay people shouldn’t study vinaya, then a section of the forum for it wouldn’t make sense.

I guess the other thing to keep in mind is that the categories of lay people and ordained are not fixed. Lots of lay people used to be ordained and some guys even ordain again. It’s always been that way. So no matter what tradition says, there are many laypeople who are very knowledgeable about monastic practice.
I can't cite a particular Vinaya text which proclaims it as a rule but a lot of the Vinaya material relevant to the Tibetan traditions is untranslated and I still don't speak/read Tibetan. Failing that, I have to go on the teaching I've received which shows there is a strong traditional viewpoint. I'm not sure I would go as far as agreeing with Malcolm that it is all bullshit - but I agree, that many interesting points are raised in the Vinaya material which are relevant for laypeople to know.
And of course, disrobed monastics don't suddenly forget what they learned when robed (mostly :rolling: ).
One explanation I heard from a western monastic was, "If the lay people knew how bad monastics were at keeping their vows, it would damage their faith in the Sangha. We have a vow not to damage their faith - so we don't let them know the vows so they cannot judge! Of course, acting in accordance with our vows would be a better way to achieve the same result..."
The antidote—to be free from the suffering of samsara—you need to be free from delusion and karma; you need to be free from ignorance, the root of samsara. So you need to meditate on emptiness. That is what you need. Lama Zopa Rinpoche
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Grigoris
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Re: Why is there no section about Mahayana Monastic life?

Post by Grigoris »

One thing I have noticed (especially over at DWT, since Theravada has a distinct emphasis on monasticism and the fact that the majority of the scriptures are teachings to monastics) is the number of people that think they can live and practice like monks (yes, monks, it seems to be a male thing), even though they are lay practitioners.

This leads to all sorts of dissonance. Especially in regards to celibacy/sexual behaviour and the consumption of intoxicants.

Mahayana (especially Vajrayana) has a rich tradition of lay practice and so one tends to see less dissonance.

I believe that lay people studying the Vinaya can increase their dissonance regarding their own practice. Their sense of what is ethical action and what is not would be a particular stumbling block.

Plus some of the rules in the Vinaya are just bizarre.

Yes, studying Vinaya would help us to judge the behaviour of particular monastics. But is it our job to judge their behaviour, or maybe it is more important for us to look at how we relate to them, what we expect of them and how we act (upholding our own vows)?
Last edited by Grigoris on Sat Jul 11, 2020 10:39 am, edited 1 time in total.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
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