Shinjin as the Third Noble Truth

[Zhen Li]

I came across this gem in the Nirvāṇa Sūtra today:

If one were to assert, “There is a tathāgatagarbha, and even though it cannot be seen it is capable of eliminating all the defilements, which is the point at which one comprehends it,” then upon bringing forth this state of mind, by the conditions wrought by this single thought, one can attain freedom in all dharmas. For one whose meditation focuses on non-self and empty quiescence as the hidden treasury of the Tathāgata, however, there will be innumerable transmigrations and the incurring of suffering throughout. Those who do not approach practice in that way, despite the presence of the defilements [within themselves] will find [those defilements] quickly eliminated. How could this be? It happens through the understanding of the tathāgata hidden treasury—and this is what I call “the noble truth of the destruction of suffering.” Anyone who is able to practice the destruction of suffering in this way is a true disciple of mine. Anyone who is not able to practice in this way I regard as someone cultivating emptiness, which does not [lead to] the noble truth of the destruction of suffering.

[FiveSkandhas]

Very nice indeed.

While I would not wish to slander the dharma in any way however, I will just note that I personally find the seeming multiplicity of viewpoints in the Nirvana Sutra somewhat perplexing. Some on DharmaWheel have called some or all of it a "provisional teaching", while T’ien-t’ai ranked the Nirvana Sutra very highly indeed in his doctrine of the five periods. There are different translations that treat the "Icchantika issue" differently...I'm really not sure what to think about this enormous Sutra.

[Zhen Li]

The main influence for most people who use the sutra in East Asia has been the Dharmakṣema version, on which the two English translations are based, which certainly affirms Buddha Nature for Icchantikas. Please correct me if you know better, but I don't think the Buddhabhadra translation has gained much traction. I would say the Buddhabhadra translation is expedient.

The Nirvāṇa Sūtra in it's long form as translated by Dharmakṣema, in my opinion, is on the same level as the Lotus Sutra and the Pure Land Sutras as expositing the definitive level of teaching. I'm going through it in detail so if I have other relevant thoughts as I read it I will post them on DW.

[FiveSkandhas]

The main influence for most people who use the sutra in East Asia has been the Dharmakṣema version, on which the two English translations are based, which certainly affirms Buddha Nature for Icchantikas. Please correct me if you know better, but I don't think the Buddhabhadra translation has gained much traction. I would say the Buddhabhadra translation is expedient.

The Nirvāṇa Sūtra in it's long form as translated by Dharmakṣema, in my opinion, is on the same level as the Lotus Sutra and the Pure Land Sutras as expositing the definitive level of teaching. I'm going through it in detail so if I have other relevant thoughts as I read it I will post them on DW.

Thanks for the info. It's impressive you are working though that one. I know it's usually ranked second only to the Lotus by at least some Tendai and Nichiren folks, and I believe at least one great thinker (can't remember who) ranked it first. You probably know there was a Nehan-shu sect in Japan and China that focused on this Sutra but they seem to have a spotty, poorly documented history. The new religion Shinnyo-en is ostensibly Nirvana-Sutra-centric.

Let us know what else you come across. It seems like the details must be full of little-noted treasures.

[Malcolm]

The main influence for most people who use the sutra in East Asia has been the Dharmakṣema version...

For your interest:

https://journals.ub.uni-heidelberg.de/i ... /8619/2526, see pg.57, Problem of the Icchantika...

https://web.archive.org/web/20130614174 ... atters.pdf

[Zhen Li]

The main influence for most people who use the sutra in East Asia has been the Dharmakṣema version...

For your interest:

https://journals.ub.uni-heidelberg.de/i ... /8619/2526, see pg.57, Problem of the Icchantika...

https://web.archive.org/web/20130614174 ... atters.pdf

I’ve read these. The icchantikas are ultimately regarded as possessing Buddha nature in East Asian sects where the Buddhabhadra translation gained little headway.

The Buddhabhadra translation can be regarded in the same way as the exclusion clauses in the primal vow — these are skillful means to encourage those who might take the teachings too far and think that they can act licentiously because their buddhahood is assured. Beings must still regard good as good.

[Astus]

I came across this gem in the Nirvāṇa Sūtra today:

How does that relate to shinjin? Shinjin itself does not eliminate one's defilements. Also: 'Good man, it is like an intoxicated man trying to walk down a road that he can barely see in his blurred vision. Bodhisattvas at the ten stages who have discerned only a small part of the tathāgata-nature are in a state like this.' (Nirvana Sutra, BDK ed, vol 1, p 249)

[Malcolm]

The Buddhabhadra translation can be regarded in the same way as the exclusion clauses in the primal vow — these are skillful means to encourage those who might take the teachings too far and think that they can act licentiously because their buddhahood is assured. Beings must still regard good as good.

Or the Dharmakṣema translation is heavily interpolated by that translator with his own ideas, which Occam's razor dictates is the more likely case.

[Konchog Thogme Jampa]

Faith pertains to someone who is grasped and not abandoned by Amida

[Zhen Li]

Or the Dharmakṣema translation is heavily interpolated by that translator with his own ideas, which Occam's razor dictates is the more likely case.

If you would like to specifically address the quotation I provided in order to demonstrate interpolation, please go ahead, otherwise this is off topic. For the record, I have not quoted anything which is outside the core seven fascicles.

As for icchantikas, you can ask yourself what conforms with the Dharma. To say that icchantikas have a fixed nature or that, as Shinran quotes,

Thus one should know that the capacities of sentient beings are not fixed. Since they are not fixed, their roots of goodness can be destroyed; after they have been destroyed, they may arise again. If the capacities of sentient beings were fixed, after they have been destroyed, they would not arise again. Again, we could not say that the icchantikas' life-span in hell is one kalpa. For this reason, sons of good families, the Tathagata teaches that dharmas have no fixed natures.

As I stated before, I hold that varying teachings on icchantikas, as with any topic where the Buddha appears to hold different positions, is about skilful means. As Kāśyapa said,

World-Honored One, the Tathagata possesses the power of knowing people's capacities. Thus, knowing well the distinct capacities of all sentient beings, such as superior, average and inferior, and also sharp and dull, the Tathagata acts in response to the people, their intentions, and the time. Hence, the Tathagata is called one who possesses the power of knowing people's capacities.... At times he teaches that those who violate the four major prohibitions, those who commit the five gravest offenses and icchantikas all have Buddha-nature...

This too is the approach taken by Shinran in regards to icchantikas and the exclusion clauses. These are necessary for certain people at certain times in order to avoid giving them the wrong impression for their minds which are not ready. If you want to claim interpolation, please be specific.

I came across this gem in the Nirvāṇa Sūtra today:

How does that relate to shinjin? Shinjin itself does not eliminate one's defilements. Also: 'Good man, it is like an intoxicated man trying to walk down a road that he can barely see in his blurred vision. Bodhisattvas at the ten stages who have discerned only a small part of the tathāgata-nature are in a state like this.' (Nirvana Sutra, BDK ed, vol 1, p 249)

Tathāgatagarbha is Shinjin,

When we, ordinary people filled with evil passions, the multitudes defiled by karmic evil and subject to birth-and-death, attain the Faith and Practice transferred by Amida for our Going forth, we will immediately join the Mahayana group of the Rightly Established Stage. Because we dwell in the Rightly Established Stage, we unfailingly reach Nirvana. Unfailing attainment of Nirvana is [attainment of] eternal bliss. The eternal bliss is the ultimate state of tranquility and extinction. Tranquility and extinction [616b] is the supreme Nirvana. The supreme Nirvana is the Unconditioned Dharma-body. The Unconditioned Dharma-body is True Reality. True Reality is Dharma-nature. Dharma-nature is True Suchness. True Suchness is Oneness. We note that Amida Tathagata comes from Thusness and manifests various forms of Recompensed, Accommodated and Transformed Bodies.

Those who attain Shinjin encounter the Light of Amida. The Light of Amida eliminates defilements and renders attainment of Nirvāṇa,

If sentient beings encounter his light, their three defilements are removed; they feel tenderness, joy and pleasure; and good thoughts arise. If sentient beings in the three realms of suffering see his light, they will all be relieved and freed from affliction. At the end of their lives, they all reach emancipation.

It also cuts off evil karma,

One utterance of the Name of Amida Buddha can remove the heavy evil karma that will cause one to transmigrate in Samsara for eight billion kalpas. Worshiping and focusing our thoughts upon Amida - along with other acts - have the same effect.

[Malcolm]

Or the Dharmakṣema translation is heavily interpolated by that translator with his own ideas, which Occam's razor dictates is the more likely case.

If you would like to specifically address the quotation I provided in order to demonstrate interpolation, please go ahead,

It comes from the dubious part of the Dharmaksena translation,

[Zhen Li]

Or the Dharmakṣema translation is heavily interpolated by that translator with his own ideas, which Occam's razor dictates is the more likely case.

If you would like to specifically address the quotation I provided in order to demonstrate interpolation, please go ahead,

It comes from the dubious part of the Dharmaksena translation,

It is demonstrable that they are working from the same source material at that point, this is not part of the "dubious" material which is regarded by Chen and Hodge as starting after Chapter 7 (not fascicle), which is quite a bit further along in the Sutra. Dharmakṣema has extra rhetorical phrases such as 何以故 inserted and can be regarded as more natural Chinese, but the substance is not interpolated. I am bolding and underlining in my translation where I did so in Blum's translation, and provided the prior paragraph in his version for full comparison.

苦滅諦者，若修行空一切盡滅壞如來性，若修行空名滅諦者，彼諸外道相違義者，亦修行空得滅諦耶？當知一切皆有如來常住之性，滅諸結縛煩惱永盡，顯現如來常住之性，起於一心便得妙果，常樂自在名法自在王，是為修行苦滅聖諦。若復修行於如來性作空無我相，當知是輩如蛾投火。名滅諦者，是如來性，是如來實，滅除一切無量煩惱。所以者何？是如來性因故，如是知者為知如來平等滅諦。若異此者不名知滅。
The [third is the] Noble Truth of the Cessation of Suffering. If one practices the contemplation of emptiness, one will entirely annihilate the Tathāgatagarbha. [Since,] if one calls the contemplation of emptiness the Noble Truth of the Cessation of Suffering, how does that differ from all of the other paths that are heretical? The [heretical paths] also pratctice the contemplation of emptiness to attain the Noble Truth of the Cessation of Suffering.

It should be understood that the Noble Truth of the Cessation of Suffering is that "all without exception possess the permanent Tathāgatagarbha, and that the end of all bondage due to afflictions and the exhausting of all defilements is the manifestation of the permanent Tathāgatagarbha," and that the arising of this one thought has the marvelous fruit of eternal bliss and becoming a free sovereign in regards to all Dharmas. This is carrying out the practice of the Noble Truth of the Cessation of Suffering. If [rather] in practicing the Tathāgatagarbha one practices the contemplation of emptiness and no-self, that should be understood as being like a moth jumping into a fire. This is the Noble Truth of the Cessation of Suffering, it is the Tathāgatagarbha, it is the Tathāgata Truth, it removes all immeasurable afflictions. Why? Because it is the Tathāgatagarbha, and as it knows things as they are, it thus knows that the Tathāgata is equal to the cessation of suffering. If one differs from this [method], he does not know the cessation [of suffering].

「苦滅諦者，若有多修習學空法，是為不善。何以故？滅一切法故，壞於如來真法藏故。作是修學，是名修空。修苦滅者，逆於一切諸外道等。若言修空是滅諦者，一切外道亦修空法，應有滅諦。若有說言：『有如來藏，雖不可見，若能滅除一切煩惱，爾乃得入，若發此心一念因緣，於諸法中而得自在。』若有修習如來密藏，無我、空寂，如是之人於無量世，在生死中流轉受苦。若有不作如是修者，雖有煩惱，疾能滅除。何以故？因知如來祕密藏故。是名苦滅聖諦。若能如是修習滅者，是我弟子。若有不能作如是修，是名修空，非滅聖諦。
The [Third] Noble Truth is the destruction of suffering. If one diligently practices and studies the dharma of emptiness, this will not do. Why? Because eliminating all dharmas [also] destroys the true dharma-treasury of the Tathāgata. To practice and study like this I call “cultivating emptiness.” But does cultivating the destruction of suffering [in this way] contrast with all of the other paths that are heretical? One may speak of “the cultivation of emptiness as the truth of the destruction [of suffering],” but the heretical paths all cultivate a dharma of emptiness as well and [assert] it must be the truth of the destruction [of suffering].

If one were to assert, “There is a tathāgatagarbha, and even though it cannot be seen it is capable of eliminating all the defilements, which is the point at which one comprehends it,” then upon bringing forth this state of mind, by the conditions wrought by this single thought, one can attain freedom in all dharmas. For one whose meditation focuses on non- self and empty quiescence as the hidden treasury of the Tathāgata, however, there will be innumerable transmigrations and the incurring of suffering throughout. Those who do not approach practice in that way, despite the presence of the defilements [within themselves] will find [those defile- ments] quickly eliminated. How could this be? It happens through the understanding of the tathāgata hidden treasury—and this is what I call “the noble truth of the destruction of suffering.” Anyone who is able to practice the destruction of suffering in this way is a true disciple of mine. Anyone who is not able to practice in this way I regard as someone cultivating emptiness, which does not [lead to] the noble truth of the destruction of suffering.

If anything, Buddhabhadra's translation is more universalist than has been asserted in regards to Buddha Nature. Hopefully someone will have the time to eventually translate the whole thing so we can have an easier time in comparing them in the West. Dismissing entire texts or passages based upon second-hand understandings and not upon one's own investigations and translations is not helpful to anyone, and risks slandering the Dharma. Let us evaluate texts on their own merits and be careful about jumping to conclusions. The Dharma is of one taste and if something is off it can generally be detected by those with experience and wisdom.

[Astus]

Tathāgatagarbha is Shinjin,

Metaphorically speaking. If literally 'who attains shinjin ... / Is ... equal to the Tathagatas.' (Hymns of the Pure Land, 94), then shinjin itself becomes meaningless, as a buddha doesn't need birth in anyone's land but rather establishes his own. Recognising that we are totally foolish beings is part of shinjin, as Shinran quotes (KGSS 3.15): 'Second [of the three minds] is deep mind, which is true and real shinjin. One truly knows oneself to be a foolish being full of blind passions, with scant roots of good, transmigrating in the three realms and unable to emerge from this burning house.'

[Zhen Li]

Tathāgatagarbha is Shinjin,

Metaphorically speaking. If literally 'who attains shinjin ... / Is ... equal to the Tathagatas.' (Hymns of the Pure Land, 94), then shinjin itself becomes meaningless, as a buddha doesn't need birth in anyone's land but rather establishes his own. Recognising that we are totally foolish beings is part of shinjin, as Shinran quotes (KGSS 3.15): 'Second [of the three minds] is deep mind, which is true and real shinjin. One truly knows oneself to be a foolish being full of blind passions, with scant roots of good, transmigrating in the three realms and unable to emerge from this burning house.'

I’m not claiming in anyway that buddhahood is attained in this life. Shinjin is attained without severing blind passions, but after we die we are born in the Pure Land which is nirvana. It’s like fire and wood. Although the wood is on fire, it is not the same as the fire, and yet the fire turns the wood into fire.

[Astus]

I’m not claiming in anyway that buddhahood is attained in this life. Shinjin is attained without severing blind passions, but after we die we are born in the Pure Land which is nirvana. It’s like fire and wood. Although the wood is on fire, it is not the same as the fire, and yet the fire turns the wood into fire.

And that's why shinjin rather belongs the fourth noble truth, not the third.

[Zhen Li]

I’m not claiming in anyway that buddhahood is attained in this life. Shinjin is attained without severing blind passions, but after we die we are born in the Pure Land which is nirvana. It’s like fire and wood. Although the wood is on fire, it is not the same as the fire, and yet the fire turns the wood into fire.

And that's why shinjin rather belongs the fourth noble truth, not the third.

Shinjin is not a means to an end because it is the Buddha’s mind.

[Astus]

Shinjin is not a means to an end because it is the Buddha’s mind.

Buddhahood is not attained in this life, but shinjin is attained. It is shinjin that leads one to be born in the Pure Land where awakening is attained. How is it not a means to an end then?

[Zhen Li]

Shinjin is not a means to an end because it is the Buddha’s mind.

Buddhahood is not attained in this life, but shinjin is attained. It is shinjin that leads one to be born in the Pure Land where awakening is attained. How is it not a means to an end then?

Because it’s bestowed by the Buddha’s power, it involves no effort, working, or calculation on our part. Shinjin doesn’t so much lead as ensure with no turning back.

I think the issue here is that you’re approaching the matter in a path of sages way. The path of sages is gradual and leaps vertically, the path of easy practice is instant and leaps crosswise. The temporality of path doesn’t play into it anymore — it was a skillful means for certain audiences.

[Astus]

Because it’s bestowed by the Buddha’s power, it involves no effort, working, or calculation on our part. Shinjin doesn’t so much lead as ensure with no turning back.

It is still not the goal, but what leads one to the goal. Like in the example of the boat, the boat is not the other shore, even if we're not the ones rowing.

[Zhen Li]

Because it’s bestowed by the Buddha’s power, it involves no effort, working, or calculation on our part. Shinjin doesn’t so much lead as ensure with no turning back.

It is still not the goal, but what leads one to the goal. Like in the example of the boat, the boat is not the other shore, even if we're not the ones rowing.

I’m not claiming that the person of Shinjin has achieved the goal, but that Shinjin is an unbreakable connection with the other shore, like a ferry being pulled by a rope belonging to someone on the other shore. The rope is part of the other shore which reaches into the flood of samsara. So in JSS it is said that after Shinjin there is no longer a “hither shore” only the river and the other shore. So if it helps you to think of this as a method you can, but with the understanding that the True Practice is also described as the No Practice Practice—the practice is done by the Tathagata.

Also, this is only thinking of the fourth noble truth from the Sravaka level. Of course all four noble truths are redefined in the Nirvana Sutra and they ALL belong to the Tathagata. So we cannot say suffering belongs to the Buddha, but knowledge of the permanent nature of the Tathagata (the ignorance of which leads to suffering) does belong to him for instance.