Amida works in this world to help mature our faith

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Zhen Li
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Amida works in this world to help mature our faith

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Shandao, Commentary on the Contemplation Sutra [Commentary on the Meditative Practice] wrote:"According to one's wishes" [in the passage which says "Amida's transcendent powers are unhindered; they work everywhere according to one's wishes"] has two meanings: first, Amida saves all sentient beings according to their wishes; second, according to Amida's wishes, he observes beings to be saved with the five kinds of perfectly illuminating eyes and, freely exercising the six transcendent powers, approaches them, in body and mind, simultaneously in a single moment; he then enlightens them with deeds, words, and mental acts. The ways in which he benefits them are different for each individual.
This is a passage that stood out to me, quoted by Shinran in the KGSS. Amida is always working to bring us to Buddhahood. Skilful means are all around us. Beings manifest for our benefit and to help bring our faith to maturity. For some it takes aeons to see the compassionate assistance that has always been afforded to us, for others they are closer. But all are embraced and brought to maturity according to their conditions.
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Losal Samten
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Re: Amida works in this world to help mature our faith

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Avatamsaka ch.36
  • All happiness enjoyed by beings:

    It is in every case because of the power of Tathāgata’s wondrous virtue.
    It is because of agreeing with the Tathāgata’s teachings.
    It is because of practicing according to the teachings of the Tathāgata.
    It is because of studying the practices of the Tathāgata.
    It is because of acquiring the protective power of the Tathāgata.
    It is because of cultivating the path that has received the seal of the Tathāgata.
    It is because of having good roots like those of the Tathāgata.
    It is because of relying upon the Dharma proclaimed by the Tathāgata.
    It is because of being illuminated by the Tathāgata’s wisdom sun.
    And it is because of being drawn forth by the pure power of the Tathāgata’s karmic works.
Lacking mindfulness, we commit every wrong. - Nyoshul Khen Rinpoche
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔
ཨོཾ་ཧ་ནུ་པྷ་ཤ་བྷ་ར་ཧེ་ཡེ་སྭཱ་ཧཱ།།
ཨཱོཾ་མ་ཏྲི་མུ་ཡེ་སལེ་འདུ།།
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FiveSkandhas
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Re: Amida works in this world to help mature our faith

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Zhen Li wrote: Sat May 08, 2021 3:26 am
Shandao, Commentary on the Contemplation Sutra [Commentary on the Meditative Practice] wrote:"According to one's wishes" [in the passage which says "Amida's transcendent powers are unhindered; they work everywhere according to one's wishes"] has two meanings: first, Amida saves all sentient beings according to their wishes; second, according to Amida's wishes, he observes beings to be saved with the five kinds of perfectly illuminating eyes and, freely exercising the six transcendent powers, approaches them, in body and mind, simultaneously in a single moment; he then enlightens them with deeds, words, and mental acts. The ways in which he benefits them are different for each individual.
This is a passage that stood out to me, quoted by Shinran in the KGSS. Amida is always working to bring us to Buddhahood. Skilful means are all around us. Beings manifest for our benefit and to help bring our faith to maturity. For some it takes aeons to see the compassionate assistance that has always been afforded to us, for others they are closer. But all are embraced and brought to maturity according to their conditions.
:twothumbsup: :good: :twothumbsup:

南無阿弥陀仏


"One should cultivate contemplation in one’s foibles. The foibles are like fish, and contemplation is like fishing hooks. If there are no fish, then the fishing hooks have no use. The bigger the fish is, the better the result we will get. As long as the fishing hooks keep at it, all foibles will eventually be contained and controlled at will." -Zhiyi

"Just be kind." -Atisha
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Zhen Li
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Re: Amida works in this world to help mature our faith

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It also reminds me how it’s said that Shinran saw his wife as Kannon and various people saw Shinran and Honen as manifestations of Kannon and Seishi. I was thinking, it doesn’t matter so much whether it’s a fact or not but it’s a useful mind training device. If we can view all beings as potential manifestations of some sort then we can orient all aspects of our lives to building faith in some way. For instance, our supposed enemies are manifesting to train us in patience and reliance on Amida.
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FiveSkandhas
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Re: Amida works in this world to help mature our faith

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Zhen Li wrote: Sat May 08, 2021 7:04 am It also reminds me how it’s said that Shinran saw his wife as Kannon and various people saw Shinran and Honen as manifestations of Kannon and Seishi. I was thinking, it doesn’t matter so much whether it’s a fact or not but it’s a useful mind training device. If we can view all beings as potential manifestations of some sort then we can orient all aspects of our lives to building faith in some way. For instance, our supposed enemies are manifesting to train us in patience and reliance on Amida.
While I don't necessarily disagree with the above, how would you square it with the contention that all such practices are self-power and that ultimately all we can do is say the Nembutsu in the spirit of deep hearing and total surrender, in the hope that Amida-sama deigns to grant us the shinjin of other power?
"One should cultivate contemplation in one’s foibles. The foibles are like fish, and contemplation is like fishing hooks. If there are no fish, then the fishing hooks have no use. The bigger the fish is, the better the result we will get. As long as the fishing hooks keep at it, all foibles will eventually be contained and controlled at will." -Zhiyi

"Just be kind." -Atisha
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Zhen Li
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Re: Amida works in this world to help mature our faith

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FiveSkandhas wrote: Sat May 08, 2021 7:32 am
Zhen Li wrote: Sat May 08, 2021 7:04 am It also reminds me how it’s said that Shinran saw his wife as Kannon and various people saw Shinran and Honen as manifestations of Kannon and Seishi. I was thinking, it doesn’t matter so much whether it’s a fact or not but it’s a useful mind training device. If we can view all beings as potential manifestations of some sort then we can orient all aspects of our lives to building faith in some way. For instance, our supposed enemies are manifesting to train us in patience and reliance on Amida.
While I don't necessarily disagree with the above, how would you square it with the contention that all such practices are self-power and that ultimately all we can do is say the Nembutsu in the spirit of deep hearing and total surrender, in the hope that Amida-sama deigns to grant us the shinjin of other power?
The assistance offered fits the karma and conditions of the being. For those who are at a different stage they are presented with self power teachings, although other power is the ultimate intent of all the Dharma and suited for all beings — many will hear, disparage, or reject it, so different means are provided which perfectly suit the individual. I think it’s similar to how in stoicism it’s said that everything is the best of all possible occurrences suited for mortals by God. I think for someone in the JSS path, it’s about seeing how everything can be seen as a gift to us from Amida.
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FiveSkandhas
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Re: Amida works in this world to help mature our faith

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Zhen Li wrote: Sat May 08, 2021 7:38 am
FiveSkandhas wrote: Sat May 08, 2021 7:32 am
Zhen Li wrote: Sat May 08, 2021 7:04 am It also reminds me how it’s said that Shinran saw his wife as Kannon and various people saw Shinran and Honen as manifestations of Kannon and Seishi. I was thinking, it doesn’t matter so much whether it’s a fact or not but it’s a useful mind training device. If we can view all beings as potential manifestations of some sort then we can orient all aspects of our lives to building faith in some way. For instance, our supposed enemies are manifesting to train us in patience and reliance on Amida.
While I don't necessarily disagree with the above, how would you square it with the contention that all such practices are self-power and that ultimately all we can do is say the Nembutsu in the spirit of deep hearing and total surrender, in the hope that Amida-sama deigns to grant us the shinjin of other power?
The assistance offered fits the karma and conditions of the being. For those who are at a different stage they are presented with self power teachings, although other power is the ultimate intent of all the Dharma and suited for all beings — many will hear, disparage, or reject it, so different means are provided which perfectly suit the individual. I think it’s similar to how in stoicism it’s said that everything is the best of all possible occurrences suited for mortals by God. I think for someone in the JSS path, it’s about seeing how everything can be seen as a gift to us from Amida.
Very interesting, will have to ponder. Thanks for your words.

南無阿弥陀仏。
"One should cultivate contemplation in one’s foibles. The foibles are like fish, and contemplation is like fishing hooks. If there are no fish, then the fishing hooks have no use. The bigger the fish is, the better the result we will get. As long as the fishing hooks keep at it, all foibles will eventually be contained and controlled at will." -Zhiyi

"Just be kind." -Atisha
steveb1
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Re: Amida works in this world to help mature our faith

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Zhen Li wrote: Sat May 08, 2021 3:26 am
Shandao, Commentary on the Contemplation Sutra [Commentary on the Meditative Practice] wrote:"According to one's wishes" [in the passage which says "Amida's transcendent powers are unhindered; they work everywhere according to one's wishes"] has two meanings: first, Amida saves all sentient beings according to their wishes; second, according to Amida's wishes, he observes beings to be saved with the five kinds of perfectly illuminating eyes and, freely exercising the six transcendent powers, approaches them, in body and mind, simultaneously in a single moment; he then enlightens them with deeds, words, and mental acts. The ways in which he benefits them are different for each individual.
This is a passage that stood out to me, quoted by Shinran in the KGSS. Amida is always working to bring us to Buddhahood. Skilful means are all around us. Beings manifest for our benefit and to help bring our faith to maturity. For some it takes aeons to see the compassionate assistance that has always been afforded to us, for others they are closer. But all are embraced and brought to maturity according to their conditions.
Zhen - I just gotta thank you for another great Shin-related post.

Currently I'm reading Rev Cirlea's autobiography, The Path Between the Thorns, and it is full of his personal testimony on how Amida Buddha sustains us on our road, even in the midst of our blind desires and the entrapments of this saha realm.
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Re: Amida works in this world to help mature our faith

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How, in your minds, would you personally distinguish upaya on the part of Amida-sama from mere self-powered "auxiliary practice?"

For example, I have a longstanding devotion to Kannon Bosatsu, predating my study of Shinshu. To what extent, in your opinions, should I honestly view this devotional heart as skillful means gifted to me by Amida Nyorai versus what may be my own self-powered delusion, a vestige of immature practice, or a distraction from deep hearing and the sole practice of Nembutsu?


南無阿弥陀仏。
"One should cultivate contemplation in one’s foibles. The foibles are like fish, and contemplation is like fishing hooks. If there are no fish, then the fishing hooks have no use. The bigger the fish is, the better the result we will get. As long as the fishing hooks keep at it, all foibles will eventually be contained and controlled at will." -Zhiyi

"Just be kind." -Atisha
steveb1
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Re: Amida works in this world to help mature our faith

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FiveSkandhas wrote: Sat May 08, 2021 6:52 pm How, in your minds, would you personally distinguish upaya on the part of Amida-sama from mere self-powered "auxiliary practice?"

For example, I have a longstanding devotion to Kannon Bosatsu, predating my study of Shinshu. To what extent, in your opinions, should I honestly view this devotional heart as skillful means gifted to me by Amida Nyorai versus what may be my own self-powered delusion, a vestige of immature practice, or a distraction from deep hearing and the sole practice of Nembutsu?


南無阿弥陀仏。
In my understanding, the devotional heart is my own egoic attitude of thanksgiving to the Buddha for His gift of Shinjin, which Shin says is only "natural" and expected. It is "good" to the extent that the ego bows in gratitude to Amida's unimpeded "light" and grace. On the other hand, my ability to perform Nembutsu recitation without hindrance, calculation or defilement, is not mine at all, but rather Amida's transcendent working within me. Inasmuch as I know myself I know that I am not capable of "pure" Nembutsu recitation and undefiled, perfect faith - both of which are "sacramental" activities of Amida within me. Non-calculating Nembutsu recitation and perfect faith are not my own creations. Jodo Shinshu supplies a very pragmatic explanation of why and how there is something working in me that is not me, i.e., Amida Himself.

So for me the devotional heart is not only the ego's proper reaction to Amida's kindness, but also a direct expression of transcendental Shinjin. So it's not a vestige of immature practices or self-powered delusion - because my"self" is incapable of creating or achieving Shin's two prime factors, Nembutsu recitation and Shinjin.
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Re: Amida works in this world to help mature our faith

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steveb1 wrote: Sat May 08, 2021 7:52 pm
FiveSkandhas wrote: Sat May 08, 2021 6:52 pm How, in your minds, would you personally distinguish upaya on the part of Amida-sama from mere self-powered "auxiliary practice?"

For example, I have a longstanding devotion to Kannon Bosatsu, predating my study of Shinshu. To what extent, in your opinions, should I honestly view this devotional heart as skillful means gifted to me by Amida Nyorai versus what may be my own self-powered delusion, a vestige of immature practice, or a distraction from deep hearing and the sole practice of Nembutsu?


南無阿弥陀仏。
In my understanding, the devotional heart is my own egoic attitude of thanksgiving to the Buddha for His gift of Shinjin, which Shin says is only "natural" and expected. It is "good" to the extent that the ego bows in gratitude to Amida's unimpeded "light" and grace. On the other hand, my ability to perform Nembutsu recitation without hindrance, calculation or defilement, is not mine at all, but rather Amida's transcendent working within me. Inasmuch as I know myself I know that I am not capable of "pure" Nembutsu recitation and undefiled, perfect faith - both of which are "sacramental" activities of Amida within me. Non-calculating Nembutsu recitation and perfect faith are not my own creations. Jodo Shinshu supplies a very pragmatic explanation of why and how there is something working in me that is not me, i.e., Amida Himself.

So for me the devotional heart is not only the ego's proper reaction to Amida's kindness, but also a direct expression of transcendental Shinjin. So it's not a vestige of immature practices or self-powered delusion - because my"self" is incapable of creating or achieving Shin's two prime factors, Nembutsu recitation and Shinjin.
A sophisticated and nuanced answer. Thanks.

南無阿弥陀仏。
"One should cultivate contemplation in one’s foibles. The foibles are like fish, and contemplation is like fishing hooks. If there are no fish, then the fishing hooks have no use. The bigger the fish is, the better the result we will get. As long as the fishing hooks keep at it, all foibles will eventually be contained and controlled at will." -Zhiyi

"Just be kind." -Atisha
steveb1
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Re: Amida works in this world to help mature our faith

Post by steveb1 »

FiveSkandhas wrote: Sat May 08, 2021 8:02 pm
steveb1 wrote: Sat May 08, 2021 7:52 pm
FiveSkandhas wrote: Sat May 08, 2021 6:52 pm How, in your minds, would you personally distinguish upaya on the part of Amida-sama from mere self-powered "auxiliary practice?"

For example, I have a longstanding devotion to Kannon Bosatsu, predating my study of Shinshu. To what extent, in your opinions, should I honestly view this devotional heart as skillful means gifted to me by Amida Nyorai versus what may be my own self-powered delusion, a vestige of immature practice, or a distraction from deep hearing and the sole practice of Nembutsu?


南無阿弥陀仏。
In my understanding, the devotional heart is my own egoic attitude of thanksgiving to the Buddha for His gift of Shinjin, which Shin says is only "natural" and expected. It is "good" to the extent that the ego bows in gratitude to Amida's unimpeded "light" and grace. On the other hand, my ability to perform Nembutsu recitation without hindrance, calculation or defilement, is not mine at all, but rather Amida's transcendent working within me. Inasmuch as I know myself I know that I am not capable of "pure" Nembutsu recitation and undefiled, perfect faith - both of which are "sacramental" activities of Amida within me. Non-calculating Nembutsu recitation and perfect faith are not my own creations. Jodo Shinshu supplies a very pragmatic explanation of why and how there is something working in me that is not me, i.e., Amida Himself.

So for me the devotional heart is not only the ego's proper reaction to Amida's kindness, but also a direct expression of transcendental Shinjin. So it's not a vestige of immature practices or self-powered delusion - because my"self" is incapable of creating or achieving Shin's two prime factors, Nembutsu recitation and Shinjin.
A sophisticated and nuanced answer. Thanks.

南無阿弥陀仏。
Thank you for your kind words. I'm interested to see how others answer your perceptive question.
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Re: Amida works in this world to help mature our faith

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steveb1 wrote: Sat May 08, 2021 5:20 pmCurrently I'm reading Rev Cirlea's autobiography, The Path Between the Thorns, and it is full of his personal testimony on how Amida Buddha sustains us on our road, even in the midst of our blind desires and the entrapments of this saha realm.
I began reading that too. I think it is an example of this sort of thing: the means manifested to beings are always perfectly suited to an individual's karma, but we have to be willing to learn and see them as teachings. For Rev Cirlea, encountering Soto was necessary to make way for the realisations that led to Shin.

Essentially, this is what I think Shinran means when he says "When I consider deeply the Vow of Amida, which arose from five kalpas of profound thought, I realize that it was entirely for the sake of myself alone! Then how I am filled with gratitude for the Primal Vow, in which Amida resolved to save me, though I am burdened with such heavy karma."

Our paths are all tailor made for our needs individually.
FiveSkandhas wrote: Sat May 08, 2021 6:52 pm How, in your minds, would you personally distinguish upaya on the part of Amida-sama from mere self-powered "auxiliary practice?"

For example, I have a longstanding devotion to Kannon Bosatsu, predating my study of Shinshu. To what extent, in your opinions, should I honestly view this devotional heart as skillful means gifted to me by Amida Nyorai versus what may be my own self-powered delusion, a vestige of immature practice, or a distraction from deep hearing and the sole practice of Nembutsu?
In the light of my reply to Steve above, I would suggest that devotion to any buddhas or bodhisattva is devotion to Amida Nyorai. We have to recognise that, however, for it to be a form of Right/True Practice. There's a Hindu analogy about what you think when you worship an image of a god: the image is not identical to the god in all aspects, but it is not separate, it is through the image that one can see the god as if the image is transparent and you can see the face of the god within the image. In the same way, although we see Kannon or another Buddhist figure, we can see through it and recognise it as Amida. So, it is appropriate to recite Namu Amidabutsu at any Buddhist shrine.

Going a step further, by reciting Namu Kanzeon Bosatsu, etc., we are reciting Namu Amidabutsu. If your name here is FiveSkandhas and your real name is X, I can say "Hi FiveSkandhas" and you know that in the context (i.e. causes and conditions) of this forum, the name FiveSkandhas applies. But you can understand what I mean when I say that the recognition is what is important—if we are worshipping Kannon as someone separate in nature from Amida's Dharma Body of Suchness, we are not worshipping Amida, and we are not worshipping the true Kannon. But not worshipping via the True Practice (i.e. Nembutsu) is not necessarily "false practice" it is just sundry practice and does not come out of faith—the recitation may be for worldly benefit, e.g. according to the promised results mentioned in the Universal Gate Chapter of the Lotus Sutra, for instance (i.e. calculative thinking), rather than out of gratitude to Amida that we are saved without doubt. That kind of recitation, as Steve suggests in his reply to the same comment, is a function of other power.
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