Dennis Hirota on Shinjin

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FiveSkandhas
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Dennis Hirota on Shinjin

Post by FiveSkandhas »

I found the following passage by Dennis Hirota (from the Introduction to his book No Abode, p. lxxiv-v) to be of interest regarding the nature of Shinjin (信心) according to Shinran Shonin. Bolded passages are mine.

南無阿弥陀仏。

****

"...Shinran would agree with Ippen's words, "If you think you can attain birth [in the Pure Land] by establishing in yourself a faith that is resolute, you will only return to the working of your own heart and mind." But while Ippen focuses on discarding all clinging, Shinran teaches that it is precisely the inability to accomplish such casting off of lingering attachments that characterized samsaric existence. For him, the moment when all calculation is seen to be futile is itself the point in which the mind of Amida is realized in the practicer as shinjin, or true entrusting. Thus, he reasserts a concept of entrusting, not as an attitude of consistency or sincerity that the practicer assumes towards the Buddha, but as the unfolding of Amida's wisdom-compassion in the practicer...

...only by realizing shinjin is it possible for us to break through self-attachment and see ourselves as we are. Thus, Shinran establishes a duality of the mind of sentient being and Buddha that stands upon -- indeed arises from -- a deeper nonduality...

...with the realization of shinjin, we begin a lifelong process of delving into our own nature, both as beings of this world burdened with karmic evil and as people possessing the Buddha's mind, the mind freed from the demands of the imagined self."
"One should cultivate contemplation in one’s foibles. The foibles are like fish, and contemplation is like fishing hooks. If there are no fish, then the fishing hooks have no use. The bigger the fish is, the better the result we will get. As long as the fishing hooks keep at it, all foibles will eventually be contained and controlled at will." -Zhiyi

"Just be kind." -Atisha
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Re: Dennis Hirota on Shinjin

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Here follow my own thoughts...please add your own if you wish.

Perhaps the hardest thing to grasp about shinjin is the concept of it being something that is given to us by Amida Nyorai. All the translations in English -- "faith," "entrusting," "total surrender" -- are insufficient because it is a foundational property of these words that they are actions we perform, rather than things we experience being granted to or done to us. Even the most abject form of "capitulation" in English carries the inherent sense that it is something we do rather than something done to us.

This hard-to-conceive of "gift" of shinjin is what separates it from Abrahamic "faith," and the key to how Shinran's Buddhism remains firmly within the Mahayana Buddhist orbit.

To be continued...
"One should cultivate contemplation in one’s foibles. The foibles are like fish, and contemplation is like fishing hooks. If there are no fish, then the fishing hooks have no use. The bigger the fish is, the better the result we will get. As long as the fishing hooks keep at it, all foibles will eventually be contained and controlled at will." -Zhiyi

"Just be kind." -Atisha
steveb1
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Re: Dennis Hirota on Shinjin

Post by steveb1 »

FiveSkandhas wrote: Fri Apr 30, 2021 5:13 pm I found the following passage by Dennis Hirota (from the Introduction to his book No Abode, p. lxxiv-v) to be of interest regarding the nature of Shinjin (信心) according to Shinran Shonin. Bolded passages are mine.

南無阿弥陀仏。

****

"...Shinran would agree with Ippen's words, "If you think you can attain birth [in the Pure Land] by establishing in yourself a faith that is resolute, you will only return to the working of your own heart and mind." But while Ippen focuses on discarding all clinging, Shinran teaches that it is precisely the inability to accomplish such casting off of lingering attachments that characterized samsaric existence. For him, the moment when all calculation is seen to be futile is itself the point in which the mind of Amida is realized in the practicer as shinjin, or true entrusting. Thus, he reasserts a concept of entrusting, not as an attitude of consistency or sincerity that the practicer assumes towards the Buddha, but as the unfolding of Amida's wisdom-compassion in the practicer...

...only by realizing shinjin is it possible for us to break through self-attachment and see ourselves as we are. Thus, Shinran establishes a duality of the mind of sentient being and Buddha that stands upon -- indeed arises from -- a deeper nonduality...

...with the realization of shinjin, we begin a lifelong process of delving into our own nature, both as beings of this world burdened with karmic evil and as people possessing the Buddha's mind, the mind freed from the demands of the imagined self."

Thanks for this lovely and devout quotation.

And ... Agreed on all points except perhaps the last one. Shin people don't yet possess a Buddha-Mind. Only Amitabha Buddha - and other enlightened beings possess that pure Mind, free of attachments and the defilements.We only receive a Buddha-Mind once we become enlightened in the Pure Land. Yes, we are aware of a spiritual dualism - the difference between our unenlightened former attitudes and our current attitudes as informed by the Buddha's gift of Shinjin. But we are not yet in possession of a Buddha-Mind.

Rather, Shin adherents possess the Buddha's gift of Shinjin or perfect faith - "perfect" because it does not issue from our own egoic self-efforts, contaminated as they are with greed and calculation...and at the same time, we experience the truly transcendental nature of receiving Shinjin from a wholly non-egoic, non-samsaric Source. Shinjin, in turn, grants us "the state of non-retrogression", which means that our faith is "settled" and we no longer risk falling back into doubt about the Amida Dharma, and we don't regress into thinking that self-power practices assist us in attaining Buddhahood.

So yes, in a sense, we do "share in" Amitabha's Mind - in that we now realize what He realized endless ages ago, namely, that in this Mappo Age of Dharma Decline, we can no longer attain Bodhi by self-power methods. Even Shakyamuni Buddha, after years of exhaustive self-effort, said that enlightenment came upon him only after He relaxed and gave up his self-effort. Amitabha Buddha's living reality - which Shin people experience every day via Shinjin - assures us that our only avenue for enlightenment is the Buddha's Other Power, and derives from nothing that we can do on our own. As St Paul said, "Let the mind of Christ be in you" and therefore to live in an altruistic manner. In a similar way, Shin people "let the Mind of Amitabha Buddha" be in them.

So surely we do have a share in the Buddha's Mind. I'm only quibbling with the false notion, prevalent among some "Modernist" Shin teachers and lay people, that we now have the Buddha's enlightened Mind, as if by receiving Shinjin, we ourselves are now enlightened in this life - as if Shinjin is, in this life, equivalent to Nirvana. Our traditional teachers say this mentality is wrong, for the simple reason that we do not become enlightened until we take birth in the Pure Land, where the Buddha's merit and grace vivify or spark our formerly "dormant" Buddha Nature, and we ourselves become a Buddha.
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Re: Dennis Hirota on Shinjin

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Continued from my last post...

Although being gifted shinjin is NOT the same as having the Buddha's enlightened mind, as wisely pointed out by steveb1 above, it is the start of our non-retrogressive journey to Enlightenment, through which we are "Grasped...never to be let go."

Even if shinjin is not "full enlightenment," its nature and activity shows how Shinran Shonin's thought is pure undiluted Mahayana Buddhism of the highest degree, and not at all a kind of "Buddhistic monotheism" or "oriental Abrahamic faith" as superficial readings have lead some to conclude.

Because shinjin is Amida Nyorai's gift, we can say that shinjin is the "injection" of something from outside the limited self of a samsaric sentient being that is necessary for that self to realize its true nature. Because the realization of true nature depends on something outside the self, the true nature of the self is not independently originated. Mahayana emptiness is powerfully confirmed.

Meanwhile, Amida Buddha may be the source of shinjin through tariki or "other power", but He is no transcendently Abrahamic "other." His own realization of Buddhahood would have been impossible without the fulfillment of his Primal Vow to save the beings who entrust themselves to him through shinjin. He depends on the shinjin of sentient beings for his Buddhahood, and yet simultaneously his Buddhahood is what gifts the sentient beings with the shinjin. Around and around we go, revealing both an uncreated Buddha-Nature and a lack of independent self-origination here, too. Again, Mahayana emptiness is on full display.

This is my current working understanding, anyway.
"One should cultivate contemplation in one’s foibles. The foibles are like fish, and contemplation is like fishing hooks. If there are no fish, then the fishing hooks have no use. The bigger the fish is, the better the result we will get. As long as the fishing hooks keep at it, all foibles will eventually be contained and controlled at will." -Zhiyi

"Just be kind." -Atisha
Malcolm
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Re: Dennis Hirota on Shinjin

Post by Malcolm »

steveb1 wrote: Fri Apr 30, 2021 5:55 pm Even Shakyamuni Buddha, after years of exhaustive self-effort, said that enlightenment came upon him only after He relaxed and gave up his self-effort.
Where?
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Re: Dennis Hirota on Shinjin

Post by steveb1 »

Malcolm wrote: Fri Apr 30, 2021 6:20 pm
steveb1 wrote: Fri Apr 30, 2021 5:55 pm Even Shakyamuni Buddha, after years of exhaustive self-effort, said that enlightenment came upon him only after He relaxed and gave up his self-effort.
Where?
When speaking of the third watch of the night of His enlightenment, He indicates His release from "fermentations" and relief from stress, which new condition He counts as enlightened knowledge -

[WIth my mind] attained to imperturbability, I directed it to the knowledge of the ending of the mental fermentations. I discerned, as it had come to be, that 'This is stress... This is the origination of stress... This is the cessation of stress... This is the way leading to the cessation of stress... These are fermentations... This is the origination of fermentations... This is the cessation of fermentations... This is the way leading to the cessation of fermentations.' My heart, thus knowing, thus seeing, was released from the fermentation of sensuality, released from the fermentation of becoming, released from the fermentation of ignorance. With release, there was the knowledge, 'Released.' I discerned that 'Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for this world.'
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/bud ... #awakening

Blessed release; blessed relief. No more attachment to the struggle(s) of becoming. No more bubbling, seething inner fermentation. There is nothing further for this world.
Last edited by steveb1 on Fri Apr 30, 2021 8:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Dennis Hirota on Shinjin

Post by steveb1 »

FiveSkandhas wrote: Fri Apr 30, 2021 6:16 pm Continued from my last post...

Although being gifted shinjin is NOT the same as having the Buddha's enlightened mind, as wisely pointed out by steveb1 above, it is the start of our non-retrogressive journey to Enlightenment, through which we are "Grasped...never to be let go."

Even if shinjin is not "full enlightenment," its nature and activity shows how Shinran Shonin's thought is pure undiluted Mahayana Buddhism of the highest degree, and not at all a kind of "Buddhistic monotheism" or "oriental Abrahamic faith" as superficial readings have lead some to conclude.

Because shinjin is Amida Nyorai's gift, we can say that shinjin is the "injection" of something from outside the limited self of a samsaric sentient being that is necessary for that self to realize its true nature. Because the realization of true nature depends on something outside the self, the true nature of the self is not independently originated. Mahayana emptiness is powerfully confirmed.

Meanwhile, Amida Buddha may be the source of shinjin through tariki or "other power", but He is no transcendently Abrahamic "other." His own realization of Buddhahood would have been impossible without the fulfillment of his Primal Vow to save the beings who entrust themselves to him through shinjin. He depends on the shinjin of sentient beings for his Buddhahood, and yet simultaneously his Buddhahood is what gifts the sentient beings with the shinjin. Around and around we go, revealing both an uncreated Buddha-Nature and a lack of independent self-origination here, too. Again, Mahayana emptiness is on full display.

This is my current working understanding, anyway.
Another commendable series of comments. Thanks for sharing your thoughts.

Couldn't agree more that Amida is no Abrahamic sky-god/Creator. We revere Him but don't give him divine worship, as Buddhism deems gods inferior to Buddhas anyway, so we don't worship them.
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Re: Dennis Hirota on Shinjin

Post by Malcolm »

steveb1 wrote: Fri Apr 30, 2021 8:13 pm
Malcolm wrote: Fri Apr 30, 2021 6:20 pm
steveb1 wrote: Fri Apr 30, 2021 5:55 pm Even Shakyamuni Buddha, after years of exhaustive self-effort, said that enlightenment came upon him only after He relaxed and gave up his self-effort.
Where?
When speaking of the third watch of the night of His enlightenment, He indicates His release from "fermentations" and relief from stress, which new condition He counts as enlightened knowledge -

[WIth my mind] attained to imperturbability, I directed it to the knowledge of the ending of the mental fermentations. I discerned, as it had come to be, that 'This is stress... This is the origination of stress... This is the cessation of stress... This is the way leading to the cessation of stress... These are fermentations... This is the origination of fermentations... This is the cessation of fermentations... This is the way leading to the cessation of fermentations.' My heart, thus knowing, thus seeing, was released from the fermentation of sensuality, released from the fermentation of becoming, released from the fermentation of ignorance. With release, there was the knowledge, 'Released.' I discerned that 'Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for this world.'
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/bud ... #awakening

Blessed release; blessed relief. No more attachment to the struggle(s) of becoming. No more bubbling, seething inner fermentation. There is nothing further for this world.
That's a stretch to go from mokṣa, release, usually rendered "liberation," to "giving up personal effort" on the path.
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Re: Dennis Hirota on Shinjin

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I don't think there is a need to argue that Shakyamuni Buddha didn't achieve enlightenment by his own power. But I have seen it argued thus in some Pure-land circles; to wit:
When Gautama became a Buddha known as Shakyamuni, it was the power of the Dharma - not his human power - that brought him Enlightenment. At the moment of awakening to the Dharma, he became one with it and, thereby, acquired a Dharma-Body without losing his human body.
-Zuio Hisao Inagaki's commentary on Jodo Wasan 1

But in my opinion when it comes to enlightenment itself, one is losing the illusion of an independently arisen self, so how you define "what is being enlightened" and "what is doing the enlightening" is a semantic matter.
"One should cultivate contemplation in one’s foibles. The foibles are like fish, and contemplation is like fishing hooks. If there are no fish, then the fishing hooks have no use. The bigger the fish is, the better the result we will get. As long as the fishing hooks keep at it, all foibles will eventually be contained and controlled at will." -Zhiyi

"Just be kind." -Atisha
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Re: Dennis Hirota on Shinjin

Post by steveb1 »

Malcolm wrote: Fri Apr 30, 2021 8:33 pm
steveb1 wrote: Fri Apr 30, 2021 8:13 pm
Malcolm wrote: Fri Apr 30, 2021 6:20 pm

Where?
When speaking of the third watch of the night of His enlightenment, He indicates His release from "fermentations" and relief from stress, which new condition He counts as enlightened knowledge -

[WIth my mind] attained to imperturbability, I directed it to the knowledge of the ending of the mental fermentations. I discerned, as it had come to be, that 'This is stress... This is the origination of stress... This is the cessation of stress... This is the way leading to the cessation of stress... These are fermentations... This is the origination of fermentations... This is the cessation of fermentations... This is the way leading to the cessation of fermentations.' My heart, thus knowing, thus seeing, was released from the fermentation of sensuality, released from the fermentation of becoming, released from the fermentation of ignorance. With release, there was the knowledge, 'Released.' I discerned that 'Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for this world.'
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/bud ... #awakening

Blessed release; blessed relief. No more attachment to the struggle(s) of becoming. No more bubbling, seething inner fermentation. There is nothing further for this world.
That's a stretch to go from mokṣa, release, usually rendered "liberation," to "giving up personal effort" on the path.
Okay - thanks for your input. It may, as you said, be a stretch, I don't know, but it seems to me that letting go of all those "fermentations" has to imply stopping struggling with some of the major causes of samsaric suffering. Maybe the Buddha, in the moment of enlightenment, simply realized that he himself had reached the point of "no-struggle" - as part and parcel of liberation. That is, once enlightened, the struggle for attaining it ceases forever. But for the unenlightened, even His own disciples, He said to practice "diligently" unless and until they also reached enlightenment.

A related question, if you don't mind - when the Buddha(s) went into meditative states post-enlightenment, was it for the pure joy of the experience...? Obviously, they would no longer need to be struggling to attain a state which they had already reached.
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Re: Dennis Hirota on Shinjin

Post by Malcolm »

steveb1 wrote: Fri Apr 30, 2021 9:35 pm
Malcolm wrote: Fri Apr 30, 2021 8:33 pm
steveb1 wrote: Fri Apr 30, 2021 8:13 pm

When speaking of the third watch of the night of His enlightenment, He indicates His release from "fermentations" and relief from stress, which new condition He counts as enlightened knowledge -

[WIth my mind] attained to imperturbability, I directed it to the knowledge of the ending of the mental fermentations. I discerned, as it had come to be, that 'This is stress... This is the origination of stress... This is the cessation of stress... This is the way leading to the cessation of stress... These are fermentations... This is the origination of fermentations... This is the cessation of fermentations... This is the way leading to the cessation of fermentations.' My heart, thus knowing, thus seeing, was released from the fermentation of sensuality, released from the fermentation of becoming, released from the fermentation of ignorance. With release, there was the knowledge, 'Released.' I discerned that 'Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for this world.'
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/bud ... #awakening

Blessed release; blessed relief. No more attachment to the struggle(s) of becoming. No more bubbling, seething inner fermentation. There is nothing further for this world.
That's a stretch to go from mokṣa, release, usually rendered "liberation," to "giving up personal effort" on the path.
Okay - thanks for your input. It may, as you said, be a stretch, I don't know, but it seems to me that letting go of all those "fermentations" has to imply stopping struggling with some of the major causes of samsaric suffering. Maybe the Buddha, in the moment of enlightenment, simply realized that he himself had reached the point of "no-struggle" - as part and parcel of liberation. That is, once enlightened, the struggle for attaining it ceases forever. But for the unenlightened, even His own disciples, He said to practice "diligently" unless and until they also reached enlightenment.

A related question, if you don't mind - when the Buddha(s) went into meditative states post-enlightenment, was it for the pure joy of the experience...? Obviously, they would no longer need to be struggling to attain a state which they had already reached.
Well, the Buddha placed himself in the eight dhyanas, and abandoned his traces for birth in those states by recognizing the four noble truths in relation to each of them through his own insight, if you are going to go by the Pali canon accounts of his buddhahood.

Mahayana accounts of his Buddhahood are varied.
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Re: Dennis Hirota on Shinjin

Post by steveb1 »

Malcolm wrote: Fri Apr 30, 2021 10:32 pm
steveb1 wrote: Fri Apr 30, 2021 9:35 pm
Malcolm wrote: Fri Apr 30, 2021 8:33 pm

That's a stretch to go from mokṣa, release, usually rendered "liberation," to "giving up personal effort" on the path.
Okay - thanks for your input. It may, as you said, be a stretch, I don't know, but it seems to me that letting go of all those "fermentations" has to imply stopping struggling with some of the major causes of samsaric suffering. Maybe the Buddha, in the moment of enlightenment, simply realized that he himself had reached the point of "no-struggle" - as part and parcel of liberation. That is, once enlightened, the struggle for attaining it ceases forever. But for the unenlightened, even His own disciples, He said to practice "diligently" unless and until they also reached enlightenment.

A related question, if you don't mind - when the Buddha(s) went into meditative states post-enlightenment, was it for the pure joy of the experience...? Obviously, they would no longer need to be struggling to attain a state which they had already reached.
Well, the Buddha placed himself in the eight dhyanas, and abandoned his traces for birth in those states by recognizing the four noble truths in relation to each of them through his own insight, if you are going to go by the Pali canon accounts of his buddhahood.

Mahayana accounts of his Buddhahood are varied.
Thanks, Malcolm, for these specifics on the Buddha putting himself in the dhyanas, and what He did when "inside" them.
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Re: Dennis Hirota on Shinjin

Post by Malcolm »

steveb1 wrote: Fri Apr 30, 2021 9:35 pm
Malcolm wrote: Fri Apr 30, 2021 8:33 pm
steveb1 wrote: Fri Apr 30, 2021 8:13 pm

When speaking of the third watch of the night of His enlightenment, He indicates His release from "fermentations" and relief from stress, which new condition He counts as enlightened knowledge -

[WIth my mind] attained to imperturbability, I directed it to the knowledge of the ending of the mental fermentations. I discerned, as it had come to be, that 'This is stress... This is the origination of stress... This is the cessation of stress... This is the way leading to the cessation of stress... These are fermentations... This is the origination of fermentations... This is the cessation of fermentations... This is the way leading to the cessation of fermentations.' My heart, thus knowing, thus seeing, was released from the fermentation of sensuality, released from the fermentation of becoming, released from the fermentation of ignorance. With release, there was the knowledge, 'Released.' I discerned that 'Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for this world.'
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/bud ... #awakening

Blessed release; blessed relief. No more attachment to the struggle(s) of becoming. No more bubbling, seething inner fermentation. There is nothing further for this world.
That's a stretch to go from mokṣa, release, usually rendered "liberation," to "giving up personal effort" on the path.
Okay - thanks for your input. It may, as you said, be a stretch, I don't know, but it seems to me that letting go of all those "fermentations" has to imply stopping struggling with some of the major causes of samsaric suffering. Maybe the Buddha, in the moment of enlightenment, simply realized that he himself had reached the point of "no-struggle" - as part and parcel of liberation. That is, once enlightened, the struggle for attaining it ceases forever. But for the unenlightened, even His own disciples, He said to practice "diligently" unless and until they also reached enlightenment.

A related question, if you don't mind - when the Buddha(s) went into meditative states post-enlightenment, was it for the pure joy of the experience...? Obviously, they would no longer need to be struggling to attain a state which they had already reached.
The term “fermentation” is also translated “canker” or “outflow”. It refers to having an afflicted relationship with phenomena. Through understanding the four noble truths, the Buddha abandoned his afflicted relationship to the three realms.

Buddha enjoyed shamatha.
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Re: Dennis Hirota on Shinjin

Post by steveb1 »

Malcolm wrote: Fri Apr 30, 2021 10:38 pm
steveb1 wrote: Fri Apr 30, 2021 9:35 pm
Malcolm wrote: Fri Apr 30, 2021 8:33 pm

That's a stretch to go from mokṣa, release, usually rendered "liberation," to "giving up personal effort" on the path.
... <snip> ... which they had already reached.
The term “fermentation” is also translated “canker” or “outflow”. It refers to having an afflicted relationship with phenomena. Through understanding the four noble truths, the Buddha abandoned his afflicted relationship to the three realms.

Buddha enjoyed shamatha.
Again, thank you for the clear meanings. The human afflicted relationship to the three realms is very well-described as "canker" and "outflow"...and obviously a great thing to have abandoned it.
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Re: Dennis Hirota on Shinjin

Post by taleen »

Not eight. Just 4 as per mn36.
Formless are not jhana in the sutta.
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Re: Dennis Hirota on Shinjin

Post by FiveSkandhas »

steveb1 wrote: Fri Apr 30, 2021 5:55 pm
I'm only quibbling with the false notion, prevalent among some "Modernist" Shin teachers and lay people, that we now have the Buddha's enlightened Mind, as if by receiving Shinjin, we ourselves are now enlightened in this life - as if Shinjin is, in this life, equivalent to Nirvana. Our traditional teachers say this mentality is wrong, for the simple reason that we do not become enlightened until we take birth in the Pure Land, where the Buddha's merit and grace vivify or spark our formerly "dormant" Buddha Nature, and we ourselves become a Buddha.
I'm well aware of the controversies between the "modernists" and those we might term "traditionalists."

Generally speaking, my instinct is to agree with what you wrote. But what would you say about the following quotes? Before you dismiss them automatically as "modernist" note that they reference Shinran himself (although true enough no concrete citation is given):

. Late in life, Shinran adopted the term jinen, “naturalness” or “being made to become so of itself,” for the spontaneous working of reality in the liberative process by which beings of afflicting passions reach enlightenment. In this process, the Mahayana assertion that “samsara is none other than nirvana” or “afflicting passions are none other than awakening” is affirmed, so that the end of the Pure Land path lies in this world, in the compassionate working for the liberation of all beings.

https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/japanese-pure-land/

And Prof Hirota again:

Shinran’s role in the development of the Pure Land teaching is best seen
not as the clarification of particular elements, but as a thorough re-casting of all
the major concepts, bringing them into new alignment and imparting new
significance. On the one hand he adheres closely to the terminology of the
tradition and takes as his basis the Pure Land sutras and the texts of the great
masters. On the other hand, however, he brought about a basic change in the
Pure Land path by rooting it in fundamental Mahayana thinking concerning the
complex relationship between this world and the realm of enlightenment.
The Pure Land stands as the goal on the path leading from samsara to
nirvana; when this life ends, people who possess the cause of birth in the Pure
Land find that the karmic bonds working out their consequences in this life are
sundered through the Buddha’s power, and they enter Amida’s land. The sphere
of Amida’s activity, however, being in essence the field of wisdom or nirvana,
does not simply stand in dichotomous opposition to samsaric existence but also
transcends that dichotomy. While it lies beyond this world, it further holds within
itself the nonduality of samsara and nirvana, of blind passions and
enlightenment. Life in this defiled world, then, does not intrinsically divide us
from the Buddha; hence, it is not physical death itself that signifies entrance into
the sphere of enlightenment. Shinran delved deeply into the nature of the Pure
Land way as the means by which the person who is evil—devoid of any seed of
awakening in himself—can realize Buddhahood. Based on his own experience,
he asserts that it is possible to enter the activity of Amida’s enlightenment while
carrying on the samsaric existence of this world, so that our every act, while
arising from profound ignorance and self-attachment, is transformed into the
Buddha’s virtues in the present. Thus, he delineates a path of attainment that
fully accords with general Mahayana thought, in which each step along the way
is nondual with the goal of suchness or true reality.


Chapter 4.1 here:
http://www.nembutsu.info/indshin/readings.htm
"One should cultivate contemplation in one’s foibles. The foibles are like fish, and contemplation is like fishing hooks. If there are no fish, then the fishing hooks have no use. The bigger the fish is, the better the result we will get. As long as the fishing hooks keep at it, all foibles will eventually be contained and controlled at will." -Zhiyi

"Just be kind." -Atisha
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Re: Dennis Hirota on Shinjin

Post by steveb1 »

FiveSkandhas wrote: Sat May 01, 2021 1:24 am
steveb1 wrote: Fri Apr 30, 2021 5:55 pm
I'm only quibbling with the false notion, prevalent among some "Modernist" Shin teachers and lay people, that we now have the Buddha's enlightened Mind, as if by receiving Shinjin, we ourselves are now enlightened in this life - as if Shinjin is, in this life, equivalent to Nirvana. Our traditional teachers say this mentality is wrong, for the simple reason that we do not become enlightened until we take birth in the Pure Land, where the Buddha's merit and grace vivify or spark our formerly "dormant" Buddha Nature, and we ourselves become a Buddha.
I'm well aware of the controversies between the "modernists" and those we might term "traditionalists."

Generally speaking, my instinct is to agree with what you wrote. But what would you say about the following quotes? Before you dismiss them automatically as "modernist" note that they reference Shinran himself (although true enough no concrete citation is given):

. Late in life, Shinran adopted the term jinen, “naturalness” or “being made to become so of itself,” for the spontaneous working of reality in the liberative process by which beings of afflicting passions reach enlightenment. In this process, the Mahayana assertion that “samsara is none other than nirvana” or “afflicting passions are none other than awakening” is affirmed, so that the end of the Pure Land path lies in this world, in the compassionate working for the liberation of all beings.

https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/japanese-pure-land/

And Prof Hirota again:

Shinran’s role in the development of the Pure Land teaching is best seen
not as the clarification of particular elements, but as a thorough re-casting of all
the major concepts, bringing them into new alignment and imparting new
significance. On the one hand he adheres closely to the terminology of the
tradition and takes as his basis the Pure Land sutras and the texts of the great
masters. On the other hand, however, he brought about a basic change in the
Pure Land path by rooting it in fundamental Mahayana thinking concerning the
complex relationship between this world and the realm of enlightenment.
The Pure Land stands as the goal on the path leading from samsara to
nirvana; when this life ends, people who possess the cause of birth in the Pure
Land find that the karmic bonds working out their consequences in this life are
sundered through the Buddha’s power, and they enter Amida’s land. The sphere
of Amida’s activity, however, being in essence the field of wisdom or nirvana,
does not simply stand in dichotomous opposition to samsaric existence but also
transcends that dichotomy. While it lies beyond this world, it further holds within
itself the nonduality of samsara and nirvana, of blind passions and
enlightenment. Life in this defiled world, then, does not intrinsically divide us
from the Buddha; hence, it is not physical death itself that signifies entrance into
the sphere of enlightenment. Shinran delved deeply into the nature of the Pure
Land way as the means by which the person who is evil—devoid of any seed of
awakening in himself—can realize Buddhahood. Based on his own experience,
he asserts that it is possible to enter the activity of Amida’s enlightenment while
carrying on the samsaric existence of this world, so that our every act, while
arising from profound ignorance and self-attachment, is transformed into the
Buddha’s virtues in the present. Thus, he delineates a path of attainment that
fully accords with general Mahayana thought, in which each step along the way
is nondual with the goal of suchness or true reality.


Chapter 4.1 here:
http://www.nembutsu.info/indshin/readings.htm
Thank you for the fresh citations and the insights therein. I don't have a problem with the Shinran's ideas as stated. "Naturalness", inasmuch as it is being "made to become so of itself", seems a "natural" way of viewing Amida's great working in the midst of samsara. It is not samsaric causes that "make" it to become so, it's Amida's compassionate grace. If samsara enlightens us "naturally", then there would be no point of the Dharma and the innumerable Buddhas who disseminate it. I could even view samsara and nirvana as "not two", with the proviso that this would not mean "one and the same".

As you know, panentheism - "everything is IN God" - holds two simple ideas, namely, that God is both "here" (immanent) and "more than here" (transcendent). I would apply the same idea toward the Amida Dharma - Amida is both "here" in that He echoes the Nembutsu within us and extends Shinjin to us in this samsaric realm - and "more than here" in that He is beyond this realm in the Pure Land. If I were not so uncomfortable with a sort of neologism, I would call Amida's combination of "hereness" and "more than hereness" PanenDharmism or PanenAmidism. Can't call it panentheism because Amida and other Buddhas are not deities.

I do think Hirota's citation is partly correct, partly not:

The sphere of Amida’s activity, however, being in essence the field of wisdom or nirvana,
does not simply stand in dichotomous opposition to samsaric existence but also
transcends that dichotomy. While it lies beyond this world, it further holds within
itself the nonduality of samsara and nirvana, of blind passions and
enlightenment. Life in this defiled world, then, does not intrinsically divide us
from the Buddha; hence, it is not physical death itself that signifies entrance into
the sphere of enlightenment.


The Shin Masters I have read all insist that for Shin adherents, enlightenment/attainment of Bodhi only occurs upon physical death. Before that, we have "only" a promissory share in Amida's Mind via His gifts of non-retrogression, Shinjin, and Nembutsu recitation, but we cannot call ourselves enlightened or "Buddhas" in any meaningful sense. Shinjin does not even make us holy in this life - bombus we were before Shinjin, and bombus we remain - until we take birth in the Pure Land.

Although samsara may somehow arise through the activity of the Three Buddha Bodies, nevertheless, the Three Bodies are not expressions of samsara. If they were such expressions, they would suffer from the same defilements as every other sentient being who lives in samsara. So I differ with the notion that we enter "the sphere of enlightenment" in this life, unless such phrasing is used allegorically or parabolically. I can conceptualize that as the panentheist God envelopes the world in both its good and evil, I can see that Amida envelopes the world. But the difference between panentheism and pantheism is that whereas pantheism identifies God with world, panentheism holds that God and world are united, but separate as to moral status and category of being. I think the same principle applies to Amida's relationship to the world.
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FiveSkandhas
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Re: Dennis Hirota on Shinjin

Post by FiveSkandhas »

steveb1 wrote: Sat May 01, 2021 2:19 am
FiveSkandhas wrote: Sat May 01, 2021 1:24 am
steveb1 wrote: Fri Apr 30, 2021 5:55 pm
I'm only quibbling with the false notion, prevalent among some "Modernist" Shin teachers and lay people, that we now have the Buddha's enlightened Mind, as if by receiving Shinjin, we ourselves are now enlightened in this life - as if Shinjin is, in this life, equivalent to Nirvana. Our traditional teachers say this mentality is wrong, for the simple reason that we do not become enlightened until we take birth in the Pure Land, where the Buddha's merit and grace vivify or spark our formerly "dormant" Buddha Nature, and we ourselves become a Buddha.
I'm well aware of the controversies between the "modernists" and those we might term "traditionalists."

Generally speaking, my instinct is to agree with what you wrote. But what would you say about the following quotes? Before you dismiss them automatically as "modernist" note that they reference Shinran himself (although true enough no concrete citation is given):

. Late in life, Shinran adopted the term jinen, “naturalness” or “being made to become so of itself,” for the spontaneous working of reality in the liberative process by which beings of afflicting passions reach enlightenment. In this process, the Mahayana assertion that “samsara is none other than nirvana” or “afflicting passions are none other than awakening” is affirmed, so that the end of the Pure Land path lies in this world, in the compassionate working for the liberation of all beings.

https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/japanese-pure-land/

And Prof Hirota again:

Shinran’s role in the development of the Pure Land teaching is best seen
not as the clarification of particular elements, but as a thorough re-casting of all
the major concepts, bringing them into new alignment and imparting new
significance. On the one hand he adheres closely to the terminology of the
tradition and takes as his basis the Pure Land sutras and the texts of the great
masters. On the other hand, however, he brought about a basic change in the
Pure Land path by rooting it in fundamental Mahayana thinking concerning the
complex relationship between this world and the realm of enlightenment.
The Pure Land stands as the goal on the path leading from samsara to
nirvana; when this life ends, people who possess the cause of birth in the Pure
Land find that the karmic bonds working out their consequences in this life are
sundered through the Buddha’s power, and they enter Amida’s land. The sphere
of Amida’s activity, however, being in essence the field of wisdom or nirvana,
does not simply stand in dichotomous opposition to samsaric existence but also
transcends that dichotomy. While it lies beyond this world, it further holds within
itself the nonduality of samsara and nirvana, of blind passions and
enlightenment. Life in this defiled world, then, does not intrinsically divide us
from the Buddha; hence, it is not physical death itself that signifies entrance into
the sphere of enlightenment. Shinran delved deeply into the nature of the Pure
Land way as the means by which the person who is evil—devoid of any seed of
awakening in himself—can realize Buddhahood. Based on his own experience,
he asserts that it is possible to enter the activity of Amida’s enlightenment while
carrying on the samsaric existence of this world, so that our every act, while
arising from profound ignorance and self-attachment, is transformed into the
Buddha’s virtues in the present. Thus, he delineates a path of attainment that
fully accords with general Mahayana thought, in which each step along the way
is nondual with the goal of suchness or true reality.


Chapter 4.1 here:
http://www.nembutsu.info/indshin/readings.htm
Thank you for the fresh citations and the insights therein. I don't have a problem with the Shinran's ideas as stated. "Naturalness", inasmuch as it is being "made to become so of itself", seems a "natural" way of viewing Amida's great working in the midst of samsara. It is not samsaric causes that "make" it to become so, it's Amida's compassionate grace. If samsara enlightens us "naturally", then there would be no point of the Dharma and the innumerable Buddhas who disseminate it. I could even view samsara and nirvana as "not two", with the proviso that this would not mean "one and the same".

As you know, panentheism - "everything is IN God" - holds two simple ideas, namely, that God is both "here" (immanent) and "more than here" (transcendent). I would apply the same idea toward the Amida Dharma - Amida is both "here" in that He echoes the Nembutsu within us and extends Shinjin to us in this samsaric realm - and "more than here" in that He is beyond this realm in the Pure Land. If I were not so uncomfortable with a sort of neologism, I would call Amida's combination of "hereness" and "more than hereness" PanenDharmism or PanenAmidism. Can't call it panentheism because Amida and other Buddhas are not deities.

I do think Hirota's citation is partly correct, partly not:

The sphere of Amida’s activity, however, being in essence the field of wisdom or nirvana,
does not simply stand in dichotomous opposition to samsaric existence but also
transcends that dichotomy. While it lies beyond this world, it further holds within
itself the nonduality of samsara and nirvana, of blind passions and
enlightenment. Life in this defiled world, then, does not intrinsically divide us
from the Buddha; hence, it is not physical death itself that signifies entrance into
the sphere of enlightenment.


The Shin Masters I have read all insist that for Shin adherents, enlightenment/attainment of Bodhi only occurs upon physical death. Before that, we have "only" a promissory share in Amida's Mind via His gifts of non-retrogression, Shinjin, and Nembutsu recitation, but we cannot call ourselves enlightened or "Buddhas" in any meaningful sense. Shinjin does not even make us holy in this life - bombus we were before Shinjin, and bombus we remain - until we take birth in the Pure Land.

Although samsara may somehow arise through the activity of the Three Buddha Bodies, nevertheless, the Three Bodies are not expressions of samsara. If they were such expressions, they would suffer from the same defilements as every other sentient being who lives in samsara. So I differ with the notion that we enter "the sphere of enlightenment" in this life, unless such phrasing is used allegorically or parabolically. I can conceptualize that as the panentheist God envelopes the world in both its good and evil, I can see that Amida envelopes the world. But the difference between panentheism and pantheism is that whereas pantheism identifies God with world, panentheism holds that God and world are united, but separate as to moral status and category of being. I think the same principle applies to Amida's relationship to the world.
:good:

You know your stuff well.

There were some Shingon-shu theorists (Kakukai) who postulated attainment of the Pure Land (and perhaps subsequent enlightenment) in "this very body" through esoteric means...but that is of course pretty far off the beaten track of Shin studies.

I've been interested (in a sad sort of way) at the recent schism between Honganji and the Shin church in Romania...as you probably know the latter is quite "traditionalist" and nonplussed by modernists like Unno...I tend towards a traditionalist bent myself but I think Honganji's refusal to answer one way or another was a very Japanese response to a difficult political situation. I don't see their (lack of) response as a refutation of the traditionalist way per se and I was hoping a schism could be avoided.
"One should cultivate contemplation in one’s foibles. The foibles are like fish, and contemplation is like fishing hooks. If there are no fish, then the fishing hooks have no use. The bigger the fish is, the better the result we will get. As long as the fishing hooks keep at it, all foibles will eventually be contained and controlled at will." -Zhiyi

"Just be kind." -Atisha
steveb1
Posts: 728
Joined: Thu Oct 13, 2011 9:37 am

Re: Dennis Hirota on Shinjin

Post by steveb1 »

FiveSkandhas wrote: Sat May 01, 2021 2:47 am
steveb1 wrote: Sat May 01, 2021 2:19 am
FiveSkandhas wrote: Sat May 01, 2021 1:24 am

I'm well aware of the controversies between the "modernists" and those we might term "traditionalists."

<snipped>
:good:

You know your stuff well.

There were some Shingon-shu theorists (Kakukai) who postulated attainment of the Pure Land (and perhaps subsequent enlightenment) in "this very body" through esoteric means...but that is of course pretty far off the beaten track of Shin studies.

I've been interested (in a sad sort of way) at the recent schism between Honganji and the Shin church in Romania...as you probably know the latter is quite "traditionalist" and nonplussed by modernists like Unno...I tend towards a traditionalist bent myself but I think Honganji's refusal to answer one way or another was a very Japanese response to a difficult political situation. I don't see their (lack of) response as a refutation of the traditionalist way per se and I was hoping a schism could be avoided.
I mis-formatted my reply and it's all in yellow - here it is separated for easier reading -

==========

Thank you for your kind words. Yes, I'm hoping that no real schism develops between Honganji and Romania. You have obviously followed the story much closer than I have. Like you, though, I would hope not to see Honganji's silence being taken to mean they are definitively discarding the traditionalist way. As an aside, there's the question of the medium as contrasted to the message. Communications from Romania, in my opinion, are sometimes given over to harshness of expression, which never helps matters. I'm only going by responses to religious questions asked, not of back-and-forth communication between the two organizations, of which I have read nothing. Anyway, it's been a pleasure corresponding with you.
Malcolm
Posts: 42974
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Dennis Hirota on Shinjin

Post by Malcolm »

taleen wrote: Sat May 01, 2021 12:03 am Not eight. Just 4 as per mn36.
Formless are not jhana in the sutta.
Accounts vary about this in the shravakayana.
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