C.S. Lewis and Shin

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Kim O'Hara
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Re: Pure Land and Christianity - similarities and differences

Post by Kim O'Hara »

You might like to refer to this similar topic - viewtopic.php?f=129&t=31937

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Re: Pure Land and Christianity - similarities and differences

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Tatsuo wrote: Sat Apr 04, 2020 6:52 am
shaunc wrote: Sat Apr 04, 2020 1:21 am
Tatsuo wrote: Fri Apr 03, 2020 8:26 am
Interesting thought. It would be great to talk about this in another thread. I see huge differences between Pure Land Buddhism and Christianity, though. The only uniting topic is that faith determines one's life after death.
Also we're not promised a hell for misdeeds and not reciting the name.
The question of similarities and differences between Christianity and Pure Land / Jodo Buddhism came up in this thread.

I think shaunc has a point, but there are more important differences. Pure Land Buddhism does not consider itself to be the only option for humans besides hell but also Amida Buddha is motivated purely by compassion while the Judeo-Christian god is also motived by jealousy and hatetowards other paths and believers. It is unthinkable for Amida to kill, ordering to kill and waging war, inflicting pain and suffering or condemning people to eternal suffering when not following him - all of which is ascribed to the Judeo-Christian god by the bible.

The Pure Land is also quite different from the Christian heaven, which is a place to worship the holy trinity and to experience bliss. While also being a place of bliss, the Pure Land is mainly a place for Bodhisattva practice to ultimately reach enlightenment, at least when it comes to Jodo Shu. The Pure Land is more of a means to an end while the Christian heaven is the final goal. Apart from worshipping and being in a blissful state there is nothing else for the saints to do since all other humans are condemned to irreversible and eternal suffering. According to one of the most important Christian theologians Thomas Aquinas, the saints know the fate of the condemned. However, they do not only feel no pity for them but even indirectly rejoice in their suffering (here). On the other hand, in Pure Land Buddhism we speak of 'genso eko', returning to the world to safe suffering beings and Jizo Bodhisattva plays a significant role for relieving the suffering of the beings in hell.

I hope we can have a respectful discussion about this topic.
Your topic was merged due to similarity with this quite young topic here.
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Re: C.S. Lewis and Shin

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In terms of belief systems, Christianity and Buddhism are worlds apart. But I noticed from attending Pureland services that the Jodo Shinsu Service Book has Buddhist hymns from Japanese sources, which are played on piano. They're very much in the style of Christian hymns - again, not in content, but musically. I think there's a definite Christian influence on the style. When you stand and sing from the hymn book it just like at a Christian service. Subjectively it is very much like the experience of singing hymns as a child.

In Christianity, believers have a relationship to God through a 'personal relationship with Jesus'. In Jodo Shinsu, there is a personal relationship with Amida. The expressions of 'gratitude towards [lord God] [Amida Buddha]' are similar in tone and feeling,

Shin-su with its emphasis on faith, is similar to the Protestant principle of 'salvation by faith alone'. Protestants hold that believers aren't even able to choose or discern what is right but have to rely totally on faith.

I would like to think the two faiths can respect each other, even despite their differences, and indeed the minister from the sangha I've been attending often officiates at multi-faith events.

Actually, I think from the perspective of 'types of religion', Pureland is 'devotional' - similar to (for example) Hare Krishna in Hinduism, or Catholic devotional sects in Christianity. Zen is based on 'Jñāna' - insight. It appeals to different kinds of mentality, although there's some crossover between Pureland and Zen.

Pureland discourages meditation practices, it considers them 'self-effort'. It associates meditation with 'the hard way' or 'the way of sages' which is regarded as a legitimate path but only suitable for the very few who can undergo the necessary training and hardships.

But I don't know if Japanese Pureland has had much experience with modern Buddhist teachings which are based on meditation in a non-monastic setting - the sort of 'lay meditation' practices based on S E Asian, and modern Zen teachings. Still weighing all that up. I was encouraged by another Pureland priest I met not to give up on sitting practice, if I find it a meaningful part of the practice.

May all beings realise the True Way.

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Re: C.S. Lewis and Shin

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Wayfarer wrote: Sat Apr 04, 2020 11:14 am In terms of belief systems, Christianity and Buddhism are worlds apart. But I noticed from attending Pureland services that the Jodo Shinsu Service Book has Buddhist hymns from Japanese sources, which are played on piano. They're very much in the style of Christian hymns - again, not in content, but musically. I think there's a definite Christian influence on the style. When you stand and sing from the hymn book it just like at a Christian service. Subjectively it is very much like the experience of singing hymns as a child.
This is a direct result of the WWII internment camps. They deliberately "Americanized" certain aspects (which basically meant making things more relatable/less foreign to their Christian neighbors) in an effort to prevent any internment from happening again in the future. This is also the reason for the name Buddhist Churches of America, as other Buddhist sanghas in other traditions do not refer to themselves as churches.
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Re: C.S. Lewis and Shin

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Thanks - now you explain it, it makes sense.

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Re: C.S. Lewis and Shin

Post by shaunc »

Wayfarer wrote: Sat Apr 04, 2020 11:14 am In terms of belief systems, Christianity and Buddhism are worlds apart. But I noticed from attending Pureland services that the Jodo Shinsu Service Book has Buddhist hymns from Japanese sources, which are played on piano. They're very much in the style of Christian hymns - again, not in content, but musically. I think there's a definite Christian influence on the style. When you stand and sing from the hymn book it just like at a Christian service. Subjectively it is very much like the experience of singing hymns as a child.

In Christianity, believers have a relationship to God through a 'personal relationship with Jesus'. In Jodo Shinsu, there is a personal relationship with Amida. The expressions of 'gratitude towards [lord God] [Amida Buddha]' are similar in tone and feeling,

Shin-su with its emphasis on faith, is similar to the Protestant principle of 'salvation by faith alone'. Protestants hold that believers aren't even able to choose or discern what is right but have to rely totally on faith.

I would like to think the two faiths can respect each other, even despite their differences, and indeed the minister from the sangha I've been attending often officiates at multi-faith events.

Actually, I think from the perspective of 'types of religion', Pureland is 'devotional' - similar to (for example) Hare Krishna in Hinduism, or Catholic devotional sects in Christianity. Zen is based on 'Jñāna' - insight. It appeals to different kinds of mentality, although there's some crossover between Pureland and Zen.

Pureland discourages meditation practices, it considers them 'self-effort'. It associates meditation with 'the hard way' or 'the way of sages' which is regarded as a legitimate path but only suitable for the very few who can undergo the necessary training and hardships.

But I don't know if Japanese Pureland has had much experience with modern Buddhist teachings which are based on meditation in a non-monastic setting - the sort of 'lay meditation' practices based on S E Asian, and modern Zen teachings. Still weighing all that up. I was encouraged by another Pureland priest I met not to give up on sitting practice, if I find it a meaningful part of the practice.

May all beings realise the True Way.

:namaste:
Hi Wayfarer, while what you say is true regarding shin Buddhism and sitting meditation is true, there is also another way to look at it.
I practice sitting meditation however I don't believe that it will lead me to enlightenment. I practice it because it's good for me. In much the same way I do physical excercise. Just because it won't lead to enlightenment is no reason not to practice it.
Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.
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Re: C.S. Lewis and Shin

Post by Wayfarer »

My thoughts exactly. This is also the advice I got from another Jodo Shinshu minister I wrote to.

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Re: C.S. Lewis and Shin

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shaunc wrote: Sun Apr 05, 2020 1:28 am Just because it won't lead to enlightenment is no reason not to practice it.
Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.
I practice in the Tibetan tradition, but I hope you'll indulge me, because the above is the crucial lesson I've been learning.

I would say that I have been throwing the baby out with the bathwater, and that the duality I've come to perceive between the mundane & the spiritual is close to the root of my suffering. This "stems" from a feeling that mundane life could never be as sweet as I imagine the pure land is; the mere idea of the pure land has been an escape from my existing suffering, rather than a refuge and a welcome destination to be met through faith in the Dharma & the unfolding of the lotus that I view my life to be. In other words, a focus on my own [past] woes has hindered my resolve.

Since the present life is the only place we can create the causes for the pure land to exist for us, whether internally, externally, or however, our attitude matters. This is the case whether we're engaged in something that seems "worthy" enough to our questioning mind, or whether we're bored silly—each moment of care & presence we can bring to bear on our circumstances will benefit us in the next life, if indeed such a life can be had. Devotion brings us there regardless, fearlessly & with a smile.

Pure land practice, for me, is about developing the courage to fight against impossible odds, overcome defilements & obscurations that the mind creates, and do what is necessary for the universal benefit of all beings, right now. Despite the differences in our external paths, that is unquestionably where my practice is aimed.

Until now, because I've been so overcome by appearances, I've lacked the courage to put my virtuous thought into action & sustain that one thought evenly across all of my activities. Even so, with every day that passes, I feel just a little bit closer to actualizing that wish for a better world.

Wow, that's sappy... :D

Anyway, peace & happiness to all of you folks. Thanks for providing an outlet for thoughts like these.
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Until then may I too remain
To dispel the miseries of the world."
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Re: C.S. Lewis and Shin

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The key point about Pureland is 'reliance on the vow of Amida Buddha' rather than 'taking charge' or 'being in control'. It's more creating a space or a clearing to enable the 'power of the Vow' to do its work in us.

From a paper on How is Shinjin to be realised?:
The point of receiving Amida's grasp is the point of entering the ocean of the Primal Vow, the point at which the mind of the foolish person and the mind of Amida become one. At this point, "the waters of foolish beings' minds, both good and evil, are transformed into the mind of great compassion".
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Re: C.S. Lewis and Shin

Post by kusulu »

So much depends on what you call Christian theology. Certainly the Bible has several entirely different versions of the afterlife and "Hell" - in fact each section (Torah, Prophets, Psalms, NT, post-Pentecostal gnostic and charismatic texts) and then do you incorporate Christian writings not included in the New Testament such as St. Thomas, and Mary Magdalene? Some even suggest that pre-Egypt Jewish captivity had no specific teaching on after-life, and there are several claims which Babylonian god YHWH started out as.. lots of stories, not much permanence. And certainly, there was a much stronger emphasis on contemplative practices in early Christianity, in fact you could read the NT as a community of contemplatives.. but there's the similarity as I see it. There is life beyond this one, and rather bold faith in a minimum of contemplative lifestyle practices...
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Re: C.S. Lewis and Shin

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Wayfarer wrote: Mon Apr 06, 2020 12:45 am The key point about Pureland is 'reliance on the vow of Amida Buddha' rather than 'taking charge' or 'being in control'. It's more creating a space or a clearing to enable the 'power of the Vow' to do its work in us.

From a paper on How is Shinjin to be realised?:
The point of receiving Amida's grasp is the point of entering the ocean of the Primal Vow, the point at which the mind of the foolish person and the mind of Amida become one. At this point, "the waters of foolish beings' minds, both good and evil, are transformed into the mind of great compassion".

This seems to be what I was getting at, but of course, my baggage gets in the way of how I express it. Doesn't stop me from trying, and I appreciate the sympathetic response.

I don't happen to believe in free will, for example, except perhaps at a very minute point of contact between my aggregates and other phenomena, so for someone like me, I do have to rely on other-power. (I'm doing so when I write these words, in fact.)

It's just that I try to self-identify with that power by gradually changing the base of imputation for my aggregates, and purifying them in so-doing—which is how I describe the underlying process put into motion by vowing to be reborn in a Buddha-realm.

The belief in the power of the Buddhas as being the only power capable of helping me do this is where I begin to talk about having faith in other-power. That's the only hope I have, truly.

Someone with more knowledge of the intersection between Pure Land practice & Vajrayana may correct me, but I hope no one thinks I'm posting in bad faith, because the two traditions are ostensibly strongly connected. I'm super grateful anyone even entertained my post at all, let alone responded.
Last edited by kausalya on Mon Apr 06, 2020 2:46 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Until then may I too remain
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Re: C.S. Lewis and Shin

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I had thought that as karma means 'intentional action', then the doctrine of karma would require free will. In other words, if our actions were determined by factors we have no control over, then we couldn't be regarded as responsible for them. So in my view, I think Buddhist teachings do presume moral responsibility, and I can't see how that can be said to exist in the absence of freedom of the will. But that's a separate topic and one which has been discussed many times previously.

The key factor with 'other power' is that it undercuts the ego's sense that it can manage its own spirituality. There's a subtle point in all forms of spiritual endeavour, which is the way that the self appropriates the process. 'I am learning/progressing/growing towards enlightenment', 'these practices are beneficial for me' and so on.

'Entrusting' or relying on faith in Amida's vow completely undercuts all of that. I think we still have to make the effort, but ultimately whatever beneficial result arises, arises as a consequence of the vow, not as the fruit of our own effort. It's a subtle balance of devotion and grace.
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Re: C.S. Lewis and Shin

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Wayfarer wrote: Mon Apr 06, 2020 2:46 am I had thought that as karma means 'intentional action', then the doctrine of karma would require free will. In other words, if our actions were determined by factors we have no control over, then we couldn't be regarded as responsible for them. So in my view, I think Buddhist teachings do presume moral responsibility, and I can't see how that can be said to exist in the absence of freedom of the will. But that's a separate topic and one which has been discussed many times previously.

The key factor with 'other power' is that it undercuts the ego's sense that it can manage its own spirituality. There's a subtle point in all forms of spiritual endeavour, which is the way that the self appropriates the process. 'I am learning/progressing/growing towards enlightenment', 'these practices are beneficial for me' and so on.

'Entrusting' or relying on faith in Amida's vow completely undercuts all of that. I think we still have to make the effort, but ultimately whatever beneficial result arises, arises as a consequence of the vow, not as the fruit of our own effort. It's a subtle balance of devotion and grace.
My point is this: if we have karma from beginningless lifetimes propelling us at great speed from life to life, and I'm too dumb to understand how to reconcile that with how someone of greater intelligence acts with confidence on their own wishes, I must give my wishes—or the illusions of them—over to a higher power. I'm convinced through experience that refuge in the Buddhas is the basis for that higher power. I don't have specific teachings on Amitabha, but that is my loss. I really try to cultivate such an idea in the depths of my heart.
"For as long as space remains,
For as long as sentient beings remain,
Until then may I too remain
To dispel the miseries of the world."
(Shantideva)
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Re: C.S. Lewis and Shin

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Oh, sure, I see what you mean now. But that is really getting an insight into our own ignorance, and in that case I totally agree with you. :twothumbsup:
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Re: C.S. Lewis and Shin

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Wayfarer wrote: Mon Apr 06, 2020 2:57 am Oh, sure, I see what you mean now. But that is really getting an insight into our own ignorance, and in that case I totally agree with you. :twothumbsup:
I'm glad! I'm doing my best with the equipment I've got, we could say. My framework is Tibetan rather than Japanese because that's the teacher I was fortunate enough to meet, but we have the same faith. Never put it in words until now, frankly—never stopped to think about what I was doing. But now that I know this about myself, my reliance may be stronger than it was previously.

It also means to me, living from a place of openness/honesty, even in the presence of fearful feelings. From that perspective, it's all new.
"For as long as space remains,
For as long as sentient beings remain,
Until then may I too remain
To dispel the miseries of the world."
(Shantideva)
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Re: C.S. Lewis and Shin

Post by kausalya »

In case you're interested, there was a definite step I just discerned preceding the development of greater confidence in the Pure Land path. That is, I recalled an instruction from my teacher, which I remember as: "look for the intention to act".

The whole purpose of my effort, as I see it now, was to equalize this idea until it was no longer discernable.

The concept of self-grasping comes to mind -- now it would appear more subtle. Specifically, I catch myself wondering if it is really this easy, or if there is another trick to it... what funny stories our minds tell :D
"For as long as space remains,
For as long as sentient beings remain,
Until then may I too remain
To dispel the miseries of the world."
(Shantideva)
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Re: C.S. Lewis and Shin

Post by Fortyeightvows »

Wayfarer wrote: Fri Nov 08, 2019 10:23 pmI don't think that the resemblances with Christianity are superficial. I notice the modern Jodo Shin Su hymns are musically very like Protestant hymns and the recordings are accompanied by piano in the Western scale. Standing and singing a hymn (even in Japanese) can't help but feel very much like Church. The emphasis on 'salvation by faith alone' is functionally identical.
SonamTashi wrote: Sun Apr 05, 2020 12:14 amThis is a direct result of the WWII internment camps. They deliberately "Americanized" certain aspects (which basically meant making things more relatable/less foreign to their Christian neighbors) in an effort to prevent any internment from happening again in the future. This is also the reason for the name Buddhist Churches of America, as other Buddhist sanghas in other traditions do not refer to themselves as churches.
This is not exactly correct.
The temple in San Francisco actually changed it’s name to the ‘Buddhist Church of San Francisco’ in 1904. In fact several of their temples in mainland US were already called ‘churches’ well before the war had started.

It is true however that the name of the organization was changed to Buddhist churches of America in 1944 and that the decision to change the name was made in the Topaz camp.

As for the western style songs- that actually started in japan during the late meiji period because western music was part of school curriculum. Almost all the songs they use today were written by Dorthy Hunt who wrote them in the late 20’s. The Hunts were supported by the leader in Hawaii but after he passed away his successor didn’t approve so much and so they basically left the organization. Ernest Hunt later became a zen devotee) From what I understand is that the Hunts sort of followed a trend of trying to create a pan-buddhism or a generic Buddhism. This is why you will see a lot of those songs in the lituragy book they use do not focus so much on Shinran, Rennyo or even Amitbha, but instead focus on the historical Shakyamuni Buddha, the song about Lumbini garden, etc.
(The Hunt’s contribution to American Buddhism cannot be overstated and they were also associates of Father Sumangalo.)
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