Is world domination SGI’s goal?

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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: Is world domination SGI’s goal?

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

Queequeg wrote: Mon Dec 28, 2020 11:12 pm
PadmaVonSamba wrote: Mon Dec 28, 2020 6:46 pm
Queequeg wrote: Mon Dec 28, 2020 6:30 pm No. The comparison is outrageous and inflammatory. Its like saying Democratic Socialists are comparable to Nazis because they both advance a notion of social consciousness.

Get over yourself.
It’s comparable to saying they share in common a view of changing the world by attracting more supporters and members. It’s not a question of their internal content.

I’m not the one saying that by intending to convert, that therefore SGI and other groups who hope to convert people are the same, or that seeking to convert others always leads to a bad ending.

Perhaps you should direct your objection to the comment by soma999 who stated that:
“... There have been many who wanted to convert the world. It has never brought any good.”
(About eight posts prior to this one).
So you want to double down?

Ridiculous. Do you even know what you're talking about? SG is an easy target to criticize, but comparing them to a group that tried to immanentize armageddon with sarin gas in a train station is national enquirer level lazy. I hope that's not the effort you put into your other endeavors.

And as for the whole question of saving all beings, it's comical when people who regard bodhisattva vows to save all beings positively get condescending when some people actually try to do it.

Smh
I’m not likening SGI to the Aum Shinrikyo group. I don’t really care if they proselytize or not.
I was merely staying within the context of the thread.
Did you read to the original post?
Perhaps the opening post made a criticism inappropriate to this forum, and any objection should have been brought to the attention of the moderators.

As it is, there was simply a comment by one person that based on their own observations, which is that any group whose goal is to convert the world is following a bad course. (This assumption itself can certainly be debated).
They made a non-specific (but I think obvious) reference to Aum Shinrikyo, and I merely guessed that this was the group they were referring to. That doesn’t mean that I am saying the two groups are similar in doctrine.
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narhwal90
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Re: Is world domination SGI’s goal?

Post by narhwal90 »

Watching the thread but not locking it since people are generally in a good mood.
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FiveSkandhas
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Re: Is world domination SGI’s goal?

Post by FiveSkandhas »

Watching the thread but not locking it since people are generally in a good mood.


It's good to stay jolly about such matters.


There once was a man from the Gakkai
Who'd shakubuku while wearing a tie.
Most averted their eyes,
But he Never Despised,
"Kosen-Rufu," he'd say, "is well nigh!"


:tongue:
"One should cultivate contemplation in one’s foibles. The foibles are like fish, and contemplation is like fishing hooks. If there are no fish, then the fishing hooks have no use. The bigger the fish is, the better the result we will get. As long as the fishing hooks keep at it, all foibles will eventually be contained and controlled at will." -Zhiyi
illarraza
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Re: Is world domination SGI’s goal?

Post by illarraza »

Queequeg wrote: Mon Dec 28, 2020 11:29 pm
Johnny Dangerous wrote: Mon Dec 28, 2020 11:21 pm I’ve had SGI people try to ‘convert’ me. It was pretty gentle. Thoroughly unconvincing to me. but gentle. I am sure there are a range of approaches.

It’s not like notion of preaching is unknown elsewhere in the Mahayana, Not something to be taken personally.
This. In the scheme of things, they're harmless. And if intension is really the key, having a bunch of people chanting for happiness and world peace and wanting people to join them - I could think of much worse.
The 1600 people on Reddit SGIwhistleblowers don't think they are harmless and there are thousands of others who have been harmed who don't want to talk about it. After all, in the United States, SGI/NST bestowed many hundreds of thousands of Gohonzon and perhaps there are 35,000 active and semi-active SGI members if we go by the number of World Tribune subscriptions. There is a schism at this moment in Italy between Gen. Director Nagashima and the previous general director Kaneda, similarly in Malaysia, and previously in Argentina, Spain, and Ghana. Psychological abuse and corruption can be as destructive as physical abuse, especially under the banner of Purity, True Self, Joy, and Eternity.

Mark
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tkp67
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Re: Is world domination SGI’s goal?

Post by tkp67 »

illarraza wrote: Tue Dec 29, 2020 9:22 am
Queequeg wrote: Mon Dec 28, 2020 11:29 pm
Johnny Dangerous wrote: Mon Dec 28, 2020 11:21 pm I’ve had SGI people try to ‘convert’ me. It was pretty gentle. Thoroughly unconvincing to me. but gentle. I am sure there are a range of approaches.

It’s not like notion of preaching is unknown elsewhere in the Mahayana, Not something to be taken personally.
This. In the scheme of things, they're harmless. And if intension is really the key, having a bunch of people chanting for happiness and world peace and wanting people to join them - I could think of much worse.
The 1600 people on Reddit SGIwhistleblowers don't think they are harmless and there are thousands of others who have been harmed who don't want to talk about it. After all, in the United States, SGI/NST bestowed many hundreds of thousands of Gohonzon and perhaps there are 35,000 active and semi-active SGI members if we go by the number of World Tribune subscriptions. There is a schism at this moment in Italy between Gen. Director Nagashima and the previous general director Kaneda, similarly in Malaysia, and previously in Argentina, Spain, and Ghana. Psychological abuse and corruption can be as destructive as physical abuse, especially under the banner of Purity, True Self, Joy, and Eternity.

Mark
Having followed the SGI whistle blowing for over a decade to understand the offense I have yet to find a substantive claim that stands out as different compared to offenses experiences in other traditions. Your argument is not substantive but essentially a straw man argument.

I can find plenty of people with exemplary professional references who view Buddhism in derogatory light through similar unreasonable metrics. Should I give them weight because they make unsubstantiated claims?

Even if they were absolutely evil in their applications of these teachings they are under the auspices of the Lotus Sutra. The warnings in the Lotus sutra against admonishing them so stark and pronounced that by ignoring them is the true desecration of the Lotus Sutra. I can't fathom the justification but imagine the discord in the buddhist community is a reflection of those who dismiss the following as meaningful and true.

Beyond that it underlines the ignorance regarding these teachings because one does not need the Lotus to tell them such things. The sutra doesn't create cause and effect. The law the sutra describes does. Our own individual lives are the wellspring of this law.
“If anyone sees a person who accepts and upholds this sutra and tries to expose the faults or evils of that person, whether what he speaks is true or not, he will in his present existence be afflicted with white leprosy. If anyone disparages or laughs at that person, then in existence after existence he will have teeth that are missing or spaced far apart, ugly lips, a flat nose, hands and feet that are gnarled or deformed, and eyes that are squinty. His body will have a foul odor, with evil sores that run pus aenee a person who accepts and upholds this sutra, you should rise and greet him from afar, showing him the same respect you would a buddha.”
https://www.nichirenlibrary.org/en/lsoc/Content/28

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tkp67
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Re: Is world domination SGI’s goal?

Post by tkp67 »

Now perhaps an important question one might ask themselves is did Nichiren betray this condition in the propagation of the sutra in his own life?

I am willing to go on record as saying he did not. So if one wants to teach Shakyamuni's perfect and supreme as Nichiren did perhaps it is best to understand those dynamics as Nichiren taught and not according the one's own desires.
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Re: Is world domination SGI’s goal?

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

tkp67 wrote: Tue Dec 29, 2020 12:31 pm
illarraza wrote: Tue Dec 29, 2020 9:22 am
Queequeg wrote: Mon Dec 28, 2020 11:29 pm

This. In the scheme of things, they're harmless. And if intension is really the key, having a bunch of people chanting for happiness and world peace and wanting people to join them - I could think of much worse.
The 1600 people on Reddit SGIwhistleblowers don't think they are harmless and there are thousands of others who have been harmed who don't want to talk about it. After all, in the United States, SGI/NST bestowed many hundreds of thousands of Gohonzon and perhaps there are 35,000 active and semi-active SGI members if we go by the number of World Tribune subscriptions. There is a schism at this moment in Italy between Gen. Director Nagashima and the previous general director Kaneda, similarly in Malaysia, and previously in Argentina, Spain, and Ghana. Psychological abuse and corruption can be as destructive as physical abuse, especially under the banner of Purity, True Self, Joy, and Eternity.

Mark
Having followed the SGI whistle blowing for over a decade to understand the offense I have yet to find a substantive claim that stands out as different compared to offenses experiences in other traditions. Your argument is not substantive but essentially a straw man argument.

I can find plenty of people with exemplary professional references who view Buddhism in derogatory light through similar unreasonable metrics. Should I give them weight because they make unsubstantiated claims?

Even if they were absolutely evil in their applications of these teachings they are under the auspices of the Lotus Sutra. The warnings in the Lotus sutra against admonishing them so stark and pronounced that by ignoring them is the true desecration of the Lotus Sutra. I can't fathom the justification but imagine the discord in the buddhist community is a reflection of those who dismiss the following as meaningful and true.

Beyond that it underlines the ignorance regarding these teachings because one does not need the Lotus to tell them such things. The sutra doesn't create cause and effect. The law the sutra describes does. Our own individual lives are the wellspring of this law.
“If anyone sees a person who accepts and upholds this sutra and tries to expose the faults or evils of that person, whether what he speaks is true or not, he will in his present existence be afflicted with white leprosy. If anyone disparages or laughs at that person, then in existence after existence he will have teeth that are missing or spaced far apart, ugly lips, a flat nose, hands and feet that are gnarled or deformed, and eyes that are squinty. His body will have a foul odor, with evil sores that run pus aenee a person who accepts and upholds this sutra, you should rise and greet him from afar, showing him the same respect you would a buddha.”
https://www.nichirenlibrary.org/en/lsoc/Content/28

Bodhisattva Universal Worthy
Is there data available on how many critics (including 1600 on Reddit) have since developed ‘white leprosy’ in this lifetime?
EMPTIFUL.
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tkp67
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Re: Is world domination SGI’s goal?

Post by tkp67 »

PadmaVonSamba wrote: Tue Dec 29, 2020 1:15 pm
tkp67 wrote: Tue Dec 29, 2020 12:31 pm
illarraza wrote: Tue Dec 29, 2020 9:22 am

The 1600 people on Reddit SGIwhistleblowers don't think they are harmless and there are thousands of others who have been harmed who don't want to talk about it. After all, in the United States, SGI/NST bestowed many hundreds of thousands of Gohonzon and perhaps there are 35,000 active and semi-active SGI members if we go by the number of World Tribune subscriptions. There is a schism at this moment in Italy between Gen. Director Nagashima and the previous general director Kaneda, similarly in Malaysia, and previously in Argentina, Spain, and Ghana. Psychological abuse and corruption can be as destructive as physical abuse, especially under the banner of Purity, True Self, Joy, and Eternity.

Mark
Having followed the SGI whistle blowing for over a decade to understand the offense I have yet to find a substantive claim that stands out as different compared to offenses experiences in other traditions. Your argument is not substantive but essentially a straw man argument.

I can find plenty of people with exemplary professional references who view Buddhism in derogatory light through similar unreasonable metrics. Should I give them weight because they make unsubstantiated claims?

Even if they were absolutely evil in their applications of these teachings they are under the auspices of the Lotus Sutra. The warnings in the Lotus sutra against admonishing them so stark and pronounced that by ignoring them is the true desecration of the Lotus Sutra. I can't fathom the justification but imagine the discord in the buddhist community is a reflection of those who dismiss the following as meaningful and true.

Beyond that it underlines the ignorance regarding these teachings because one does not need the Lotus to tell them such things. The sutra doesn't create cause and effect. The law the sutra describes does. Our own individual lives are the wellspring of this law.
“If anyone sees a person who accepts and upholds this sutra and tries to expose the faults or evils of that person, whether what he speaks is true or not, he will in his present existence be afflicted with white leprosy. If anyone disparages or laughs at that person, then in existence after existence he will have teeth that are missing or spaced far apart, ugly lips, a flat nose, hands and feet that are gnarled or deformed, and eyes that are squinty. His body will have a foul odor, with evil sores that run pus aenee a person who accepts and upholds this sutra, you should rise and greet him from afar, showing him the same respect you would a buddha.”
https://www.nichirenlibrary.org/en/lsoc/Content/28

Bodhisattva Universal Worthy
Is there data available on how many critics (including 1600 on Reddit) have since developed ‘white leprosy’ in this lifetime?
Should one categorize all Buddhist teachings as absolutely literal?

Should one judge a paragraph on a sutra whose words are not independent of one another without digesting the rest of the buddha's teaching within that sutra?

Should one judge a tradition and practice foreign of their own without due diligence?

Does your tradition have any blemishes among teachers or practitioners? Should one use to gauge the verity of your understanding? Should that become the proof of proper practice here at DW?

Perhaps you could enlighten me to the purposed intent and benefit you hoped to achieve with your comment? That would be far simpler.
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Re: Is world domination SGI’s goal?

Post by tkp67 »

Here is the rub with the slander regarding the SGI. First I am not SGI. Secondly and most importantly none of what is reported means anything in regards to the propagation of buddhism because there is no metric employed to measure such thing.

When I suggest as much to illustrate the depth of ignorance and slander the suggestion is avoided because it illustrates that there is no reasonable basis for this slander. It as a direct abuse of a section of buddhist practitioners.

However the reason seems that most people look down at "common" and "ordinary" Buddhist practitioners as if this wasn't the anti-thesis to Shakuyamuni's life or any truly qualified teacher. The lack of voice regarding this is equally as tone deaf if not out right disturbing.

The very subtle comments I have made in the past that these things aren't even acceptable in the "human" realm means that the very professions represented here maintain a higher bar based on sectarian values.

Rationalizing lowering the bar because it is impossible to converse without it is as equally unreasonable.

:anjali:
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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: Is world domination SGI’s goal?

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

tkp67 wrote: Tue Dec 29, 2020 2:05 pm
PadmaVonSamba wrote: Tue Dec 29, 2020 1:15 pm
tkp67 wrote: Tue Dec 29, 2020 12:31 pm

Having followed the SGI whistle blowing for over a decade to understand the offense I have yet to find a substantive claim that stands out as different compared to offenses experiences in other traditions. Your argument is not substantive but essentially a straw man argument.

I can find plenty of people with exemplary professional references who view Buddhism in derogatory light through similar unreasonable metrics. Should I give them weight because they make unsubstantiated claims?

Even if they were absolutely evil in their applications of these teachings they are under the auspices of the Lotus Sutra. The warnings in the Lotus sutra against admonishing them so stark and pronounced that by ignoring them is the true desecration of the Lotus Sutra. I can't fathom the justification but imagine the discord in the buddhist community is a reflection of those who dismiss the following as meaningful and true.

Beyond that it underlines the ignorance regarding these teachings because one does not need the Lotus to tell them such things. The sutra doesn't create cause and effect. The law the sutra describes does. Our own individual lives are the wellspring of this law.



https://www.nichirenlibrary.org/en/lsoc/Content/28

Bodhisattva Universal Worthy
Is there data available on how many critics (including 1600 on Reddit) have since developed ‘white leprosy’ in this lifetime?
Should one categorize all Buddhist teachings as absolutely literal?

Should one judge a paragraph on a sutra whose words are not independent of one another without digesting the rest of the buddha's teaching within that sutra?

Should one judge a tradition and practice foreign of their own without due diligence?

Does your tradition have any blemishes among teachers or practitioners? Should one use to gauge the verity of your understanding? Should that become the proof of proper practice here at DW?

Perhaps you could enlighten me to the purposed intent and benefit you hoped to achieve with your comment? That would be far simpler.
I take it then, that there isn’t any data.
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Re: Is world domination SGI’s goal?

Post by Queequeg »

PadmaVonSamba wrote: Tue Dec 29, 2020 12:09 am I’m not likening SGI to the Aum Shinrikyo group.
PadmaVonSamba wrote: Mon Dec 28, 2020 6:46 pm It’s comparable to saying they share in common a view of changing the world by attracting more supporters and members.
Oh, sorry. I misunderstood.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Upaya Chapter

純一実相。実相外。更無別法。法性寂然名止。寂而常渉照名観。
There is only reality; there is nothing separate from reality. The naturally tranquil nature of dharmas is shamatha. The abiding luminosity of tranquility is vipashyana.

-From Guanding's Introduction to Zhiyi's Great Shamatha and Vipashyana
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Queequeg
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Re: Is world domination SGI’s goal?

Post by Queequeg »

illarraza wrote: Tue Dec 29, 2020 9:22 am
Queequeg wrote: Mon Dec 28, 2020 11:29 pm
Johnny Dangerous wrote: Mon Dec 28, 2020 11:21 pm I’ve had SGI people try to ‘convert’ me. It was pretty gentle. Thoroughly unconvincing to me. but gentle. I am sure there are a range of approaches.

It’s not like notion of preaching is unknown elsewhere in the Mahayana, Not something to be taken personally.
This. In the scheme of things, they're harmless. And if intension is really the key, having a bunch of people chanting for happiness and world peace and wanting people to join them - I could think of much worse.
The 1600 people on Reddit SGIwhistleblowers don't think they are harmless and there are thousands of others who have been harmed who don't want to talk about it. After all, in the United States, SGI/NST bestowed many hundreds of thousands of Gohonzon and perhaps there are 35,000 active and semi-active SGI members if we go by the number of World Tribune subscriptions. There is a schism at this moment in Italy between Gen. Director Nagashima and the previous general director Kaneda, similarly in Malaysia, and previously in Argentina, Spain, and Ghana. Psychological abuse and corruption can be as destructive as physical abuse, especially under the banner of Purity, True Self, Joy, and Eternity.

Mark
There's plenty of ammo to criticize SG. Plotting sarin gas attacks during rush hour is not anything close to what they do.

That said, hundreds of thousands of people who were convinced to buy a funky looking oriental scroll does not amount to agreement with Ms. Fromage's obsession with some wrongs, perceived or real. I'm sure she's got as much disdain for you and your monomaniacal obsession. Most people just tossed the scroll in the garbage and never looked back. It was something funky they did for a while, like that awkward threesome back in their 20s.

In the scheme of things, nobody cares about SG. In the scheme of things nobody cares about Dharma. All this just shows, including the interlopers in this thread who have nothing to do with the tradition but feel compelled to cast shade, that the smaller the real estate gets, the more bitterly people fight over it.

The f+cking atmosphere is choking on carbon dioxide and social ills are rampant. If your life is concerned with any of this, critiquing some religious group with all its samsaric ills, to the exclusion of all the other shitty stuff going on in the world, then I'd judge you found a nice samsaric diversion to make you think you're actually doing something about samsara. Mara is giggling.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Upaya Chapter

純一実相。実相外。更無別法。法性寂然名止。寂而常渉照名観。
There is only reality; there is nothing separate from reality. The naturally tranquil nature of dharmas is shamatha. The abiding luminosity of tranquility is vipashyana.

-From Guanding's Introduction to Zhiyi's Great Shamatha and Vipashyana
Malcolm
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Re: Is world domination SGI’s goal?

Post by Malcolm »

Queequeg wrote: Tue Dec 29, 2020 4:25 pm All this just shows, including the interlopers in this thread who have nothing to do with the tradition but feel compelled to cast shade, that the smaller the real estate gets, the more bitterly people fight over it.
Nailed it. Axioms 1, 2 and 3. Bravo.
"Conceptuality is great ignorance,
causing one to fall into the ocean of samsāra."
—Māyājālamahātantra
neander
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Re: Is world domination SGI’s goal?

Post by neander »

When you study Nichiren you realize he intended the following literally:

"all the nembutsu and zen temples, such as kenchoji, jufuku-ji, gokuraku-ji, daibutsuden, and choraku-ji, should be burned to the ground, and their priests taken to yui beach to have their heads cut off. if this is not done, then japan is certain to be destroyed!” - Nichiren, the selection of the time

Nichiren Buddhism has little to do if nothing with morality, it deals with discovering your Buddhanature. That's it.

on attaining Buddhahood in this lifetime

"if you seek enlightenment outside yourself, then your performing even ten thousand practices and ten thousand good deeds will be in vain. it is like the case of a poor man who spends night and day counting his neighbor’s wealth but gains not even half a coin"

however:

1 you cannot have the hybris to expect to understand Nichiren Buddhism if you do not study Japanese medieval history thoroughly as politics and religion were deeply intertwined, you should also read scholarly references of kamakura buddhism (I came to Nichiren studying Sengoku Jidai warfare). I also suggest you read everything you find about sohei and ikko ikki and also The Teeth and Claws of the Buddha that is a very good book.

2 you cannot have the hybris (unless you are a native Japanese speaker) to read the gosho and expect to understand Nichiren Buddhism, you need to rely on some Japanese sources, I use SG with many caveats.

In relation to Sokka Gakkai I am not familiar with all today‘s branches directors and politics and I am not interested either so I cannot judge anything. I also never attended one of their meetings. I am only using the free material available online.

I am not even interested in the myriad of other different interpretations by other sects.

I think SG has done a good job in bringing to the layman a medieval religion, their concepts are simple and ready to use. Personally, I use some and do not use others.

However, if they want to conquer the world I see nothing wrong, Nichiren thought was his duty in order to save Japan to evangelize and conquer the Japanese religious arena, the earthly desires are enlightenment, if you continue using a normal Buddhist scheme to interpret Nichiren you will never understand it…


-----------------
a coward cannot have any of his prayers answered.,. Nichiren
Last edited by neander on Tue Dec 29, 2020 7:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Queequeg
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Re: Is world domination SGI’s goal?

Post by Queequeg »

Malcolm wrote: Tue Dec 29, 2020 7:41 pm
Queequeg wrote: Tue Dec 29, 2020 4:25 pm All this just shows, including the interlopers in this thread who have nothing to do with the tradition but feel compelled to cast shade, that the smaller the real estate gets, the more bitterly people fight over it.
Nailed it. Axioms 1, 2 and 3. Bravo.
LOL. You just can't help yourself. I'll be your dance partner.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Upaya Chapter

純一実相。実相外。更無別法。法性寂然名止。寂而常渉照名観。
There is only reality; there is nothing separate from reality. The naturally tranquil nature of dharmas is shamatha. The abiding luminosity of tranquility is vipashyana.

-From Guanding's Introduction to Zhiyi's Great Shamatha and Vipashyana
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Re: Is world domination SGI’s goal?

Post by narhwal90 »

Now that we're back to the usual sniping I'll lock the thread until/unless there is a reasonable initiative for me to unlock it.
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