Is world domination SGI’s goal?

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dharmapdx
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Is world domination SGI’s goal?

Post by dharmapdx »

I know this may sound quasi-paranoid/conspiracy-theory of me, but isn’t the goal of SGI and Nichiren Buddhism in general to convert the world? Granted, that’s the goal of a lot of religions. If not, what exactly is Kosen-Rufu? Anyway, my point being, if converting the world is SGI’s goal, maybe that’s one reason it seems so dysfunctional to me: viewtopic.php?f=59&t=33116
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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: Is world domination SGI’s goal?

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

SGI is the only Buddhist group I know of that engages in anything that might be referred to as active recruitment.
But here is one official explanation of Kosen Rufu:

https://www.sgi.org/about-us/president- ... -rufu.html
EMPTIFUL.
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mansurhirbi87
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Re: Is world domination SGI’s goal?

Post by mansurhirbi87 »

Nichiren buddhism in general look for transform this world (saha), or all saha worlds, in Buddha's lands
narhwal90
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Re: Is world domination SGI’s goal?

Post by narhwal90 »

I go to SGI meetings pretty often, and volunteer at the local community center- I have never heard any language even remotely similar to domination of anything much less world domination. The constant refrain is individual transformation via the practice, and by the individual's transformation the world changes. World Peace is the goal, but it is never imposed.

Its true that propagation was quite aggressive in the US up till the schism in 1990, at which point the organization pivoted away from those methods.

I suggest spending some time in SGI meetings, read the publications; not just one or two, but go to a couple meetings a month for a year, and read at least something from one publication per month- see if you hear any sort of "domination" language. I propose you will not, and if you look back in the pubs as far back as you reasonably or conveniently can, you will not find any there either.
dharmapdx
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Re: Is world domination SGI’s goal?

Post by dharmapdx »

narhwal90 wrote: Wed Mar 11, 2020 3:16 am I go to SGI meetings pretty often, and volunteer at the local community center- I have never heard any language even remotely similar to domination of anything much less world domination. The constant refrain is individual transformation via the practice, and by the individual's transformation the world changes. World Peace is the goal, but it is never imposed.

Its true that propagation was quite aggressive in the US up till the schism in 1990, at which point the organization pivoted away from those methods.

I suggest spending some time in SGI meetings, read the publications; not just one or two, but go to a couple meetings a month for a year, and read at least something from one publication per month- see if you hear any sort of "domination" language. I propose you will not, and if you look back in the pubs as far back as you reasonably or conveniently can, you will not find any there either.
Well of course no one says it that bluntly. I was raised Catholic, and no one at the Catholic Church said they were set on world domination — even though that was obviously the goal. I mean it is called the holy Roman empire. Most religions seem to teach that they are the only correct one. ( there are exceptions, Which is why I say “most.”)

I actually do read SGI publications. Just read two today. I have never seen mention of world domination either …. which is why I asked. If I had indeed seen that, I wouldn’t have had to ask would I ?
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Bois de Santal
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Re: Is world domination SGI’s goal?

Post by Bois de Santal »

dharmapdx wrote: Wed Mar 11, 2020 6:17 am I mean it is called the holy Roman empire.
Slightly off-topic but the Holy Roman Empire was a long time after the fall of the roman empire. A quick look at Wikipedia indicates that it didn't have much to do with Rome, either. It was basically a germanic empire. Rather ironic, really, considering that the Romans never conquered what we now call Germany.
narhwal90
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Re: Is world domination SGI’s goal?

Post by narhwal90 »

dharmapdx wrote: Wed Mar 11, 2020 6:17 am
narhwal90 wrote: Wed Mar 11, 2020 3:16 am I go to SGI meetings pretty often, and volunteer at the local community center- I have never heard any language even remotely similar to domination of anything much less world domination. The constant refrain is individual transformation via the practice, and by the individual's transformation the world changes. World Peace is the goal, but it is never imposed.

Its true that propagation was quite aggressive in the US up till the schism in 1990, at which point the organization pivoted away from those methods.

I suggest spending some time in SGI meetings, read the publications; not just one or two, but go to a couple meetings a month for a year, and read at least something from one publication per month- see if you hear any sort of "domination" language. I propose you will not, and if you look back in the pubs as far back as you reasonably or conveniently can, you will not find any there either.
Well of course no one says it that bluntly. I was raised Catholic, and no one at the Catholic Church said they were set on world domination — even though that was obviously the goal. I mean it is called the holy Roman empire. Most religions seem to teach that they are the only correct one. ( there are exceptions, Which is why I say “most.”)

I actually do read SGI publications. Just read two today. I have never seen mention of world domination either …. which is why I asked. If I had indeed seen that, I wouldn’t have had to ask would I ?
Agreed such language is not in the publications- which is why I suggest going to a bunch of meetings; maybe world-peace gongyo's monthly for a year- see if you observe any language other than people working for their own human revolution and trying to encourage others to do so. Your personal experience will be more relevant than anything I can say. Its easy to compare oneself out on the basis of one's own inner dialog, its more difficult and far more interesting to connect with others face-to-face and be honest with the doubts.
dharmapdx
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Re: Is world domination SGI’s goal?

Post by dharmapdx »

Bois de Santal wrote: Wed Mar 11, 2020 10:19 am
dharmapdx wrote: Wed Mar 11, 2020 6:17 am I mean it is called the holy Roman empire.
Slightly off-topic but the Holy Roman Empire was a long time after the fall of the roman empire. A quick look at Wikipedia indicates that it didn't have much to do with Rome, either. It was basically a germanic empire. Rather ironic, really, considering that the Romans never conquered what we now call Germany.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concordat_of_1801
dharmapdx
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Re: Is world domination SGI’s goal?

Post by dharmapdx »

narhwal90 wrote: Wed Mar 11, 2020 11:53 am
dharmapdx wrote: Wed Mar 11, 2020 6:17 am
narhwal90 wrote: Wed Mar 11, 2020 3:16 am I go to SGI meetings pretty often, and volunteer at the local community center- I have never heard any language even remotely similar to domination of anything much less world domination. The constant refrain is individual transformation via the practice, and by the individual's transformation the world changes. World Peace is the goal, but it is never imposed.

Its true that propagation was quite aggressive in the US up till the schism in 1990, at which point the organization pivoted away from those methods.

I suggest spending some time in SGI meetings, read the publications; not just one or two, but go to a couple meetings a month for a year, and read at least something from one publication per month- see if you hear any sort of "domination" language. I propose you will not, and if you look back in the pubs as far back as you reasonably or conveniently can, you will not find any there either.
Well of course no one says it that bluntly. I was raised Catholic, and no one at the Catholic Church said they were set on world domination — even though that was obviously the goal. I mean it is called the holy Roman empire. Most religions seem to teach that they are the only correct one. ( there are exceptions, Which is why I say “most.”)

I actually do read SGI publications. Just read two today. I have never seen mention of world domination either …. which is why I asked. If I had indeed seen that, I wouldn’t have had to ask would I ?
Agreed such language is not in the publications- which is why I suggest going to a bunch of meetings; maybe world-peace gongyo's monthly for a year- see if you observe any language other than people working for their own human revolution and trying to encourage others to do so. Your personal experience will be more relevant than anything I can say. Its easy to compare oneself out on the basis of one's own inner dialog, its more difficult and far more interesting to connect with others face-to-face and be honest with the doubts.
Done that. Heard a lot of talk about “shakubuku,” which is converting people, right?
narhwal90
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Re: Is world domination SGI’s goal?

Post by narhwal90 »

In SGI "shakabuku" means talking to people about the practice and what its done for oneself, asking if they'd like to attend some meetings and if not, leaving them be and allowing your example to make the statement. Its been that way since the early 90's.
dharmapdx
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Re: Is world domination SGI’s goal?

Post by dharmapdx »

narhwal90 wrote: Wed Mar 11, 2020 9:00 pm In SGI "shakabuku" means talking to people about the practice and what its done for oneself, asking if they'd like to attend some meetings and if not, leaving them be and allowing your example to make the statement. Its been that way since the early 90's.
I thought that “Shakubuku” meant something like “Break and subdue.”

What you referred to above sounds more like “Shoju.”
narhwal90
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Re: Is world domination SGI’s goal?

Post by narhwal90 »

Perhaps, but that is what SGI does and shakabuku is what they call it. Before circa 1990, shakabuku meant streetcorner conversion campaigns where success was measured in the #'s of guests and #'s of gohonzons conferred.
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Shiva
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Re: Is world domination SGI’s goal?

Post by Shiva »

dharmapdx wrote: Thu Mar 12, 2020 2:25 am
narhwal90 wrote: Wed Mar 11, 2020 9:00 pm In SGI "shakabuku" means talking to people about the practice and what its done for oneself, asking if they'd like to attend some meetings and if not, leaving them be and allowing your example to make the statement. Its been that way since the early 90's.
I thought that “Shakubuku” meant something like “Break and subdue.”

What you referred to above sounds more like “Shoju.”
Nichiren taught two methods of propagation: Shakubuku and Shoju. Shakubuku was a formal debate common among scholars and priests in the time of Nichiren and Shoju is to lead by example.

I do not know exactly how SGI defines Shakubuku but in practice, it is a very harsh way for forcing people to convert. I really do not understand how anybody can be okay with what SGI calls shakubuku, I would rather call it "persecution".
Gassho,

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Shiva
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Re: Is world domination SGI’s goal?

Post by Shiva »

dharmapdx wrote: Tue Mar 10, 2020 7:26 pm I know this may sound quasi-paranoid/conspiracy-theory of me, but isn’t the goal of SGI and Nichiren Buddhism in general to convert the world? Granted, that’s the goal of a lot of religions. If not, what exactly is Kosen-Rufu? Anyway, my point being, if converting the world is SGI’s goal, maybe that’s one reason it seems so dysfunctional to me: viewtopic.php?f=59&t=33116
I do not speak from the viewpoint of SGI. Anyhow, regarding Nichiren Buddhism in general no, the point is not to convert the world. Nichiren indeed said that Lotus Sutra Buddhism is the best Buddhism for the Japan of the age of Mappo but non-Lotus Sutra Buddhism is also okay as expedient means. (and yes, Nichiren was somehow in a personal war with other sects of japan but remember also that they wanted to cut his head off and he was not the only one making religious revolutions at the time; he actually lived in an epoch where many argued about the deviations in Japanese Buddhism and the sects of today are very different to the sects of his time due to the changes that were made in order to rectify japanese Buddhism in general)

Kosenrufu in Nichiren Shu is understood as the primordial state of Myoho Renge Kyo or awareness in Buddha-nature. (In SGI it means world peace)
Gassho,

Namu Myoho Renge Kyo
narhwal90
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Re: Is world domination SGI’s goal?

Post by narhwal90 »

Shiva wrote: Fri Mar 13, 2020 1:30 pm
dharmapdx wrote: Thu Mar 12, 2020 2:25 am
narhwal90 wrote: Wed Mar 11, 2020 9:00 pm In SGI "shakabuku" means talking to people about the practice and what its done for oneself, asking if they'd like to attend some meetings and if not, leaving them be and allowing your example to make the statement. Its been that way since the early 90's.
I thought that “Shakubuku” meant something like “Break and subdue.”

What you referred to above sounds more like “Shoju.”
Nichiren taught two methods of propagation: Shakubuku and Shoju. Shakubuku was a formal debate common among scholars and priests in the time of Nichiren and Shoju is to lead by example.

I do not know exactly how SGI defines Shakubuku but in practice, it is a very harsh way for forcing people to convert. I really do not understand how anybody can be okay with what SGI calls shakubuku, I would rather call it "persecution".
I think what SGI calls shakabuku now is more what one would expect with shoju. Pre-1990 the methods were emphatic to say the least- along with expectations that a strong practice meant bringing in new members. Immediately after the schism there were a few simulcasts shown in many community centers where President Ikeda stated new policy- it really was that strongly worded; all members were to spend more time with their families, fewer meetings and no more number driven propagation campaigns. The organization changed literally overnight; no more 6 days/week activities at the community center plus local meetings. It took a lot of pressure off everyone, but had downsides as well; the intensive study became rather less so, President Ikeda became far more prominent. The whole Human Revolution story was always a drumbeat but after the schism it became a dominant topic. Study of the Lotus Sutra was never a priority but it became entirely eclipsed.

If the pre-1990 methods had persisted, I would not have stayed in the organization long-term.
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