What will happen when Daisaku Ikeda dies?

[Ginkyo]

(Or the Gakkai tells people he has died?)

I'm an SGI member, and I've been thinking about this question a lot recently. Here in the UK, the 'Mentor & Disciple' slant is being emphasised more and more and, reading between the lines, some members are quietly wondering is that's because SG in Japan are worried about the possiblity of splits after the inevitable happens.

It certainly does seem that as the 'eternal mentors for Kosen rufu' the three founding presidents are being memorialised as incarnations of three of the leaders of the Bodhisattvas of the Earth. I do think, given his prolific writings if nothing else, there will be a push from some faction in Japan to 'beatify' him specifically. In our publications he is referenced more and more all the time, and there is still the pretence that he knows what's going on in the organisation. Letters are produced, ostensibly from him saying he is 'watching over' meetings etc. that I just find silly.

To British people, at least, this can come across as rather creepy. I was chatting to one very long-standing member who said that it hasn't always been so obviously all about Ikeda. He also said that he felt the organisation had a choice in the next few years. Open up and become less 'Japanese' culturally, giving the national organisations more room to breathe or become even more of a personality cult.

What do people think? I know this is a can of worms, but is the leader-adulation partly a Japanese cultural thing? The only Japanese people I've spoken to who weren't in the Gakkai were very negative, or even scared of it. I'm very grateful to SGI for giving me the practice, but the leaders high up must have some idea of how it comes across to people.

[DewachenVagabond]

I'm not a Nichiren Buddhist, but I'm not aware of any other Japanese Buddhist tradition that has that kind of "leader-adulation" or personality-cult aspect. I don't think it is fair to call that Japanese culture at all.

[Queequeg]

I'm not a Nichiren Buddhist, but I'm not aware of any other Japanese Buddhist tradition that has that kind of "leader-adulation" or personality-cult aspect. I don't think it is fair to call that Japanese culture at all.

Three generations ago they were deifying and worshiping the Emperor - and it not like the deification of the emperor was something new - they've been identified with the Sun God since time immemorial and been important figures in various kami worship cults. The Master-Student relationship, with varying degrees of devotion, is found across Japanese culture - consider martial arts, crafts, not to mention religious institutions. Soka Gakkai is able to cultivate this sort of adoration of Ikeda because this capacity is found in Japanese culture, not because its an aberration. Soka Gakkai takes this to another level, but its not completely unfounded.

[Queequeg]

(Or the Gakkai tells people he has died?)

I'm an SGI member, and I've been thinking about this question a lot recently. Here in the UK, the 'Mentor & Disciple' slant is being emphasised more and more and, reading between the lines, some members are quietly wondering is that's because SG in Japan are worried about the possiblity of splits after the inevitable happens.

It certainly does seem that as the 'eternal mentors for Kosen rufu' the three founding presidents are being memorialised as incarnations of three of the leaders of the Bodhisattvas of the Earth. I do think, given his prolific writings if nothing else, there will be a push from some faction in Japan to 'beatify' him specifically. In our publications he is referenced more and more all the time, and there is still the pretence that he knows what's going on in the organisation. Letters are produced, ostensibly from him saying he is 'watching over' meetings etc. that I just find silly.

To British people, at least, this can come across as rather creepy. I was chatting to one very long-standing member who said that it hasn't always been so obviously all about Ikeda. He also said that he felt the organisation had a choice in the next few years. Open up and become less 'Japanese' culturally, giving the national organisations more room to breathe or become even more of a personality cult.

What do people think? I know this is a can of worms, but is the leader-adulation partly a Japanese cultural thing? The only Japanese people I've spoken to who weren't in the Gakkai were very negative, or even scared of it. I'm very grateful to SGI for giving me the practice, but the leaders high up must have some idea of how it comes across to people.

They've turned it up recently?!!!

[narhwal90]

lol, its been kind of creepy for me too, pretty much since day 1 in NSA back in the 80's. The mentor/disciple proposition was strong back then also, it seems more prominent in the last 20 years along with a decreased emphasis on detailed study of technical subjects; gosho, etc. The focus on Mr Ikeda means a lot to many folks, some of whom might have met him only once in passing. The face-to-face thing is what works for me, OTOH I appreciate the daily guidance texts and some of his other material. It will be interesting to see where the organization goes afterwards OTOH I wonder how relevant he is from an organizational standpoint. Given there have been 3 SG presidents after him I wouldn't be surprised if its business as usual which IMHO would suggest a degree of organizational maturity.

The Mandala Workshop folks suggest the SG will complete the inevitable canonization of Makaguchi/Toda/Ikeda as historical figures which might include adoption of images of Mr Ikeda's personal gohonzon as a new format. I wonder if/how the study material will change, more detail or less and how the faces will change.

[Queequeg]

A more serious response -

(Or the Gakkai tells people he has died?)

I'm an SGI member, and I've been thinking about this question a lot recently. Here in the UK, the 'Mentor & Disciple' slant is being emphasised more and more and, reading between the lines, some members are quietly wondering is that's because SG in Japan are worried about the possiblity of splits after the inevitable happens.

My understanding is that SG leadership is not monolithic in their views. Over the decades, some who spoke out a little too strongly for decentralization were pushed out the door. (Ahem. Mr. Williams in the US, though there were other issues there, too. Another topic of discussion. A few in Japan whose names escape me at the moment.). I am sure there are high level leaders who have different views and have held their tongues. I don't know where their base of power is, so they may never speak up and continue to work quietly from the inside.

My impression is as you observe - there is a fear about the simmering disagreements breaking out into the open. The playbook here is the same as the schism with Taisekiji - hold the allegiance of the bulk of membership by directing the charismatic attention on Ikeda (or his legacy, as the case may be). This is a political move and they've been cultivating this since at least the 1970s when factions started agitating from within and tensions with Taisekiji started boiling over.

It certainly does seem that as the 'eternal mentors for Kosen rufu' the three founding presidents are being memorialised as incarnations of three of the leaders of the Bodhisattvas of the Earth. I do think, given his prolific writings if nothing else, there will be a push from some faction in Japan to 'beatify' him specifically.

In Japanese, he is referred to as 永遠の師匠 eien no shishou which translates as "Eternal Teacher". He has been beatified already.

he is 'watching over' meetings etc.

Of course. Such is the power of an Eternal Teacher.

In Japan, its not unusual for individuals to be deified. There is a well established path for remarkable people to become kami on death. Its integral in the Japanese religious landscape. Arguably, Nichiren himself has been deified this way by some segments of the Nichiren community.

---

The Daimoku has been caused to be heard across this planet because of the efforts of Daisaku Ikeda. That counts for something, and if the Daimoku is what it is said to be, it will be the message that endures long after Soka Gakkai is a footnote in the history books.

[Ginkyo]

Where can I read about the Mandala Workshop views? I looked online bit couldn't see anything about Mr Ikeda...

[Queequeg]

Aside - It has always struck me - Ikeda's given name, Daisaku 大作, literally translates as "Great Builder". I don't know if that is his real name or a pen name. Either way, he at least subliminally, gets a lot of mileage out of that.

[narhwal90]

http://thenichirenmandala.yolasite.com/

the index of Nichiren gohonzon is very interesting, they have a number of pdf's available freely available on a variety of topics that suggest independent and organized scholarship. The antecedents of workshop folks are obscure though. It would be very interesting to hear a SGI response to the material but I won't hold my breath. I'm grateful for the material because it reveals some of the depth and complexity of the Nichiren related practice & history, far beyond what SGI makes available.

[Ginkyo]

Thank you so much

[Bois de Santal]

The antecedents of workshop folks are obscure though.

Despite the fact that no one is quite sure just who they are, they don't come across as sectarian to me. Overall, I trust them.

I think my main criticism of the NMSW is that their site(s) are badly organised. There are two main sites, and it is hard to navigate them. In addition, some of their stuff is only for sale and other stuff is for free. I don't have a problem with stuff being for sale, and I think they merit being paid for the efforts but it does get confusing. A single site with all the free publications available in html, with clear links to free pdfs of the html content where relevant, plus clear links to their paid for stuff would go a long way to making them a major site in the Nichiren community, instead of a curious backwater. IMO.

Anyway, preamble out of the way, this article seems pertinent to the discussion in hand:
https://nichirenmandala.weebly.com/blog ... /new-essay
There are probably others too, but I haven't found them yet. (I definitely don't trust scribd.)

And their pdf's available for free here are also interesting in a general sense:

https://nichirenmandala.weebly.com/

[Ginkyo]

I had no idea that his name means "great builder". I'm reminded of Soviet-era dictators who also changed their names. Q, I'm interested in what you say about the cult of personality (because let's face it, that's exactly what it is) being a political decision to maintain factional unity. Obviously, Ikeda is not Stalin, and the focus on him is in some ways very benign. SGI has maintained an impressive unity (more or less) as it has grown and spread across the globe. Ikeda is an impressive figure in any case, and SGI - for all it's faults - is an impressive organisation that has spread NMRK far and wide. I can attest to huge, positive change in my life as a direct result of the practice and I have Daisaku Ikeda and the SGI to thank for that.


Many members I know really do feel a relationship to him as a father figure. Some write to him, though, and get letters back. Again this feels silly to me. To outsiders it would just seem weird.

I'm not convinced he's still alive. One member I talked to about this agreed, but also that if he voiced his concerns more openly then other members would start questioning his faith, which I think it's a shame and also very true.

But why does the leadership maintain such a pretence? I guess I'm feeling frustrated. SGI-UK failed to reach our target of 18,000 members this year and I can't help feeling that the sychophantic Sensei-worship is partly to blame. Some internet sites, such as on Reddit, are run by people who must wake up in the morning seething with hatred for Ikeda and the SGI and I feel that going so far in the other direction only has the effect of making people think that they're right. Or at least makes us all seem a bit odd.

[narhwal90]

I know a number of SGI people who write to him regularly, similarly getting letters in return. The idea never appealed to me either. There is an undercurrent of concern about him around here also, to me it seems like uncertainty and fear. I wholeheartedly offer my prayers for him, but I'm also looking forward to the change. Its often the case that the innovator and visionary turns into the bottleneck, the canonical stories surrounding him seem way too rigid and too often repeated. Its the same stuff from the 90's repeated 20 years later, I think its time for the next chapter. He must be pretty tired and frail these days, but I think he would rather breathe his last trying to encourage a member than rest.

[DewachenVagabond]

I'm not a Nichiren Buddhist, but I'm not aware of any other Japanese Buddhist tradition that has that kind of "leader-adulation" or personality-cult aspect. I don't think it is fair to call that Japanese culture at all.

Three generations ago they were deifying and worshiping the Emperor - and it not like the deification of the emperor was something new - they've been identified with the Sun God since time immemorial and been important figures in various kami worship cults. The Master-Student relationship, with varying degrees of devotion, is found across Japanese culture - consider martial arts, crafts, not to mention religious institutions. Soka Gakkai is able to cultivate this sort of adoration of Ikeda because this capacity is found in Japanese culture, not because its an aberration. Soka Gakkai takes this to another level, but its not completely unfounded.

I had overlooked the deification of the Emperor when I posted; maybe you're right. The master-student relationship is also another interesting point, but I guess I overlooked that as well because I've gotten used to the emphasis of the guru-disciple relationship in TB, which generally seems a lot stronger.

It doesn't seem as extreme, but I guess you could consider the use of Shinran and Honen portraits in Jodo altars to be a part of this too. But a lot of this is pretty common to Buddhism overall-- a lot of important masters and thinkers end up immortalized in statues, paintings, thangkas, etc. and placed on altars. This is extremely common at least in Indian, Tibetan and Japanese Buddhism.

To be honest, I've never been part of SGI or a Nichiren group, so I'm not entirely familiar with Ikeda and the personality-cult aspect of SGI. But part of the description here at least reminds me a lot of how Mormon apostles and prophets are treated. Specifically:

Many members I know really do feel a relationship to him as a father figure. Some write to him, though, and get letters back.

...

the canonical stories surrounding him seem way too rigid and too often repeated. Its the same stuff from the 90's repeated 20 years later, I think its time for the next chapter. He must be pretty tired and frail these days, but I think he would rather breathe his last trying to encourage a member than rest.

Mormonism itself was of course rooted in a bit of a personality-cult around Joseph Smith, and then Brigham Young, but as time has gone on it has shifted more to "hero worship" built around the ever shifting cast of Mormon apostles, prophets and General Authorities. The above quotes pretty much describe it perfectly. Once you are a Mormon apostle or prophet, you're an apostle or prophet for life. No matter how old, frail, or possibly suffering from dementia you become, you are pushed into being an icon and serving the church until your last breath. And no matter how extreme it gets, the organization as a whole can't let on that the old men are possibly losing their minds to age, or even that they're on the verge of death. A couple years ago, one of them almost fainted while giving a talk in General Conference, and they were just quietly led back to their seat. Because they're old men, they always develop a "father/grandfather figure" persona, and many members feel a close connection to them. I met some of them when I was Mormon, and while I never had the desire to really interact with them, when they show up 90% of the members are stumbling over their feet to shake hands. When I was in the Missionary Training Center, missionaries would talk about their favorite apostles like most people would talk about their favorite athlete or actor, except with perhaps even more vigor and sentimentality. On a somewhat related note, it seems like on Reddit certain celebrities get their own little personality-cult fan clubs that really creep me out. For example, Keanu Reeves. I like the guy, but on Reddit it seems like he can do no wrong. Mormon apostles and prophets are treated a lot like that in the Mormon community.

To bring it back on topic, I don't know if this is exactly how Ikeda is treated, but the descriptions here seem very similar to me. But I think this kind of thing happens all over the world, from America, to ancient Egypt, and from Tibet to Japan. I don't think it is necessarily unique to any particular culture, although perhaps some cultures emphasize it more. This happens in religions, especially, and I don't think that should be particularly surprising-- it is kind of the name of the game. I think it is human nature.

[Queequeg]

I had overlooked the deification of the Emperor when I posted; maybe you're right. The master-student relationship is also another interesting point, but I guess I overlooked that as well because I've gotten used to the emphasis of the guru-disciple relationship in TB, which generally seems a lot stronger.

It doesn't seem as extreme, but I guess you could consider the use of Shinran and Honen portraits in Jodo altars to be a part of this too. But a lot of this is pretty common to Buddhism overall-- a lot of important masters and thinkers end up immortalized in statues, paintings, thangkas, etc. and placed on altars. This is extremely common at least in Indian, Tibetan and Japanese Buddhism.

With regard to the post-death deification in the East Asian context, Confucian traditions of ancestor worship also play a part I think. There are probably articles, dissertations, books, an academic career or two in this general topic.

To bring it back on topic, I don't know if this is exactly how Ikeda is treated, but the descriptions here seem very similar to me. But I think this kind of thing happens all over the world, from America, to ancient Egypt, and from Tibet to Japan. I don't think it is necessarily unique to any particular culture, although perhaps some cultures emphasize it more. This happens in religions, especially, and I don't think that should be particularly surprising-- it is kind of the name of the game. I think it is human nature.

I think we are hardwired to look to parents, teachers, leaders, for direction, support, encouragement, and in turn, our parents, teachers, leaders, the good ones anyway, understand that they are more than just people, and conscientiously play those roles for us. Actually, some interpretations of the Lotus Sutra have the Buddha undertaking such a role. In one, the Buddha displays birth, awakening, teaching and passing, but is actually much more - the so-called Original (Source) Buddha. In another interpretation that takes universal Buddha Nature a step further, it interprets the Buddha as a perfected being, not necessarily a buddha, not necessarily not a buddha, who shares the fundamental Buddha Nature with all beings and plays the role of the Buddha in response to others for the sake of awakening others to their Buddha Nature. I think this latter interpretation is the one that Nichiren held - the one with the ineffable, apparent paradox of the ordinariness of the Buddha at its heart. He wrote something along the lines, the real buddha is the ordinary being, while the Buddha who displays birth, awakening, teaching and passing, is a provisional buddha who functions in response to the ordinary being. In other words, ordinary beings attribute the qualities (32 Major and 80 Minor characteristics) of a buddha on the Buddha; the Buddha neither has nor does not have these qualities, but can display them as upaya as a responsive function. This is the dynamic relationship that Zhiyi recognized and referred to as the Middle Way-Buddha Nature of the Perfect Teaching. They do this because we need parents, teachers, leaders, to show us the path, we in turn project our needs onto these beings making them into parents, teachers, leaders. They're qualitatively no different than us, they just know more and are wiser (ideally), and oblige this need through functioning in these roles. I'm reminded of the counsel to look on one's teacher as the Buddha - to not disdain the gold because it is in a smelly bag. What's left unsaid is that the teacher is obliged to act like they are gold. (Woe, how so many have failed us.)

This theme is not just in Buddhism - off the top of my head, I think of the last words of the Roman Emperor Augustus - "Have I played the part well? Then applaud as I exit."

I am certain that when Ikeda has his wits about him, he was self-consciously projecting the image of a leader. If anyone is familiar with SG, they are familiar with the "show". The question is whether the substance of the person is commensurate with the role they play. That's something that will be debated.

BTW - I don't think Ikeda is dead. I think he is suffering from dementia. I heard about one of his last public appearances and his dementia was apparent to the audience (I heard this story twice removed from someone who was there.)

[Queequeg]

The antecedents of workshop folks are obscure though.

Despite the fact that no one is quite sure just who they are, they don't come across as sectarian to me. Overall, I trust them.

I think my main criticism of the NMSW is that their site(s) are badly organised. There are two main sites, and it is hard to navigate them. In addition, some of their stuff is only for sale and other stuff is for free. I don't have a problem with stuff being for sale, and I think they merit being paid for the efforts but it does get confusing. A single site with all the free publications available in html, with clear links to free pdfs of the html content where relevant, plus clear links to their paid for stuff would go a long way to making them a major site in the Nichiren community, instead of a curious backwater. IMO.

Anyway, preamble out of the way, this article seems pertinent to the discussion in hand:
https://nichirenmandala.weebly.com/blog ... /new-essay
There are probably others too, but I haven't found them yet. (I definitely don't trust scribd.)

And their pdf's available for free here are also interesting in a general sense:

https://nichirenmandala.weebly.com/

Ordered and received all their books in English. Been meaning to for a while.

Very nice work. Excellent addition to the library.

[KiwiNFLFan]

Some folks on the r/sgiwhistleblowers subreddit think that President Ikeda is already dead and has been for some time, and that the SGI is simply covering it up.

I'll be interested to see what they do too. They're pretty much in unchartered waters, as Makiguchi died in prison and Toda basically restarted Soka Gakkai, but when he died, it was still only a Japanese organisation as SGI hadn't been formed yet. Ikeda has been the only president of SGI so far.

Chances are some other guy high up in the organisation will be appointed the new president. It would be good if it were a woman but given how sexist Japanese society still is, that would be doubtful.

Maybe they can take some of his personal items and go searching for his reincarnation, like the Tibetans do with tulkus.

[narhwal90]

There have been 3 presidents since Mr Ikeda served in that capacity. Organizationally it will be business as usual though how the fault lines play out is another question.

[Queequeg]

r/sgiwhistleblowers

Take anything those folks say with generous helping of skepticism.

You want to see what happens when people stew in anger and aversion, there you go. Some people get attached to things they hate, too.

[Yavana]

You want to see what happens when people stew in anger and aversion, there you go. Some people get attached to things they hate, too.

I've said for years that if anyone really wants to undercut SGI, just forget to tell people that organization even exists.