What will happen when Daisaku Ikeda dies?

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Minobu
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Re: What will happen when Daisaku Ikeda dies?

Post by Minobu »

jake wrote: Wed Apr 17, 2019 6:28 pm
Minobu wrote: Wed Apr 17, 2019 4:07 pm France was not happy to see the famous treasure, Victor Hugo 's home,go the way of a Japanese billionaire due to bidding.
What? Victor Hugo's home is a museum owned by the City of Paris. What are the sources for your other claims?
He owns the house...bought it in the 80's along with some 40 million dollar Renoir paintings..ladies bathing was one.
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Re: What will happen when Daisaku Ikeda dies?

Post by dude »

Hmmmmmmmmmm, a casual search doesn't come up with any statement of his assets. Is he really a billionaire?
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Queequeg
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Re: What will happen when Daisaku Ikeda dies?

Post by Queequeg »

http://www.maisonlitterairedevictorhugo ... eation.htm
https://www.fujibi.or.jp/en/index.html

Its not as salacious as Minobu makes it out.

The motivation behind the Victor Hugo House and Fuji Art Museum should be understood.

You have to keep in mind that many of the members of Soka Gakkai are poor and working class. People from these backgrounds often do not feel comfortable in museums and centers of high culture. Mr. Ikeda, by doing things like these projects through Soka Gakkai intended to open these worlds of high culture to people of humble backgrounds. To give people a way in to this heritage of humanity.

I don't agree with the fundamental doctrines of Soka Gakkai, but I do think these projects are ingenious and high minded expressions of compassion - maybe not in a form that the intellectual and high falutin could actually understand. Someone born to high culture or someone who has an iconoclastic attitude might not understand. Different story for the humble salt of the earth... some might call them BoE.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma.
-Ayacana Sutta
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Caoimhghín
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Re: What will happen when Daisaku Ikeda dies?

Post by Caoimhghín »

Victor Hugo is part of the trinitarian godhead of the Cao Đài religion. I wonder what is attracting East Asian New Religious Moments to this figure? He's an okay writer, but oh so long-winded. I did an ISU (a book report on crack you get assigned in Canadian schools when you are in a program called IB) on the Les misérables and found it an appropriately titled read.
Last edited by Caoimhghín on Thu Apr 18, 2019 12:49 am, edited 1 time in total.
savi saghara aṇica di, savi saghara dukha di, savi dhama aṇatva di:
yada paśadi cakhkṣuma tada nivinadi dukha eṣo mago viśodhia.

"All formations are inconstant," he said.
"All formations are stressful," he said.
"All phenomena are selfless," he said.
When one sees this, one becomes adverse to stress, and this is the path of purity.

(Gāndhārī Dharmapada fragments)
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Caoimhghín
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Re: What will happen when Daisaku Ikeda dies?

Post by Caoimhghín »

He makes the Buddhāvataṃsaka seem thrilling and fast-paced, if you catch my drift.
savi saghara aṇica di, savi saghara dukha di, savi dhama aṇatva di:
yada paśadi cakhkṣuma tada nivinadi dukha eṣo mago viśodhia.

"All formations are inconstant," he said.
"All formations are stressful," he said.
"All phenomena are selfless," he said.
When one sees this, one becomes adverse to stress, and this is the path of purity.

(Gāndhārī Dharmapada fragments)
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Minobu
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Re: What will happen when Daisaku Ikeda dies?

Post by Minobu »

Queequeg wrote: Thu Apr 18, 2019 12:35 am http://www.maisonlitterairedevictorhugo ... eation.htm
https://www.fujibi.or.jp/en/index.html

Its not as salacious as Minobu makes it out.
salacious..lol...really? look up salacious lol..
The motivation behind the Victor Hugo House and Fuji Art Museum should be understood.
i was an adult at the time, France was outraged , he out bid everyone. It made the news big time in France.
You have to keep in mind that many of the members of Soka Gakkai are poor and working class. People from these backgrounds often do not feel comfortable in museums and centers of high culture. Mr. Ikeda, by doing things like these projects through Soka Gakkai intended to open these worlds of high culture to people of humble backgrounds. To give people a way in to this heritage of humanity.
well thats one way of looking at it.
A lot of people at the time said the money could have been used for the world's poor. In any case i have a hard time thinking that this was done to educate the poor . For me it's more of an opportunity for him to show how cultured he is . he was from wore torn tokyo, worked in a weapons factory, my father went through the war in the medical field. I don't think he went to high school .


I don't agree with the fundamental doctrines of Soka Gakkai, but I do think these projects are ingenious and high minded expressions of compassion -
Only if you go along with the narrative you just portrayed.
maybe not in a form that the intellectual and high falutin could actually understand.
So it's all about raising the intellectual and artistic merits of the poor in SGI.

Sgi is bereft of intellectuals, they simply run away from the meetings. I was in a discussion with senior leaders in toronto who wanted a plan to bring in intellectuals. My point was , it's not something intellectual, it's about Buddhahood. the whole dialogue was offensive to me and laughable at their seriousness .
Someone born to high culture or someone who has an iconoclastic attitude might not understand. Different story for the humble salt of the earth... some might call them BoE.
My grandfather was a world renowned artist in his field. rose to the highest standards for 47 years when judged. also he comes from an aristocratic family in Northern italy. extreme wealth he shunned , for all he wanted to do was to be a the best candy maker ,pastry chef in the world. In the 1890's his father paid a hotel in France for 7 years for him to learn the art. He was a famous for ice sculpture displayed in high falutin Ritz Carlton dining rooms.
He painted , with water color, and sculpted with raw sugar. He knew how to acquire any color of the rainbow through the heating and cooling of raw sugar crystal.

Funny thing about the uber rich , who are refined and come from aristocratic backgrounds...Some of them have no interest in things, worldly items and other expensive hobbies...It's like they are above all that and know if they were poor it's not what is important. It's how you live.

my point, i find the ingenious narrative of the man's purchasing of these art items being done for the poor to bring them high culture laughable.

your narrative just shows a billionaire wanting to show he knows something that the poor don't...

the man is supposed to be a religious leader and one on the road to enlightenment..he has consistently shown himself to be lacking in Buddhist Achievement ...what Bodhisattva blows hundreds of millions on art?
Oh yeah you say it's for the poor.

The circles that Ikeda gets to run with are always portrayed as if he deserves some incredible merit of the highest order for his knowledge of the humanities.
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Re: What will happen when Daisaku Ikeda dies?

Post by Queequeg »

Gotcha.

Your interpretation of things is all that counts. Everyone else, take note: step aside Minobu has pronounced.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma.
-Ayacana Sutta
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Caoimhghín
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Re: What will happen when Daisaku Ikeda dies?

Post by Caoimhghín »

Minobu wrote: Thu Apr 18, 2019 5:33 pm I was an adult at the time, France was outraged , he out bid everyone. It made the news big time in France.
Are you sure that you aren't confusing "Victor Hugo's house" with "the Victor Hugo House?" Victor Hugo AFAIK has never lived in the château des roches.
savi saghara aṇica di, savi saghara dukha di, savi dhama aṇatva di:
yada paśadi cakhkṣuma tada nivinadi dukha eṣo mago viśodhia.

"All formations are inconstant," he said.
"All formations are stressful," he said.
"All phenomena are selfless," he said.
When one sees this, one becomes adverse to stress, and this is the path of purity.

(Gāndhārī Dharmapada fragments)
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Minobu
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Re: What will happen when Daisaku Ikeda dies?

Post by Minobu »

Caoimhghín wrote: Thu Apr 18, 2019 5:53 pm
Minobu wrote: Thu Apr 18, 2019 5:33 pm I was an adult at the time, France was outraged , he out bid everyone. It made the news big time in France.
Are you sure that you aren't confusing "Victor Hugo's house" with "the Victor Hugo House?" Victor Hugo AFAIK has never lived in the château des roches.
The place of residence Victor Hugo used when writing les miserable...it's a national treasure

he bought it when Les Miz was at it's height ...
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Re: What will happen when Daisaku Ikeda dies?

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Caoimhghín wrote: Thu Apr 18, 2019 5:53 pm
Minobu wrote: Thu Apr 18, 2019 5:33 pm I was an adult at the time, France was outraged , he out bid everyone. It made the news big time in France.
Are you sure that you aren't confusing "Victor Hugo's house" with "the Victor Hugo House?" Victor Hugo AFAIK has never lived in the château des roches.
http://www.maisonlitterairedevictorhugo ... orique.htm
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma.
-Ayacana Sutta
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jake
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Re: What will happen when Daisaku Ikeda dies?

Post by jake »

Minobu wrote: Thu Apr 18, 2019 6:04 pm
Caoimhghín wrote: Thu Apr 18, 2019 5:53 pm
Minobu wrote: Thu Apr 18, 2019 5:33 pm I was an adult at the time, France was outraged , he out bid everyone. It made the news big time in France.
Are you sure that you aren't confusing "Victor Hugo's house" with "the Victor Hugo House?" Victor Hugo AFAIK has never lived in the château des roches.
The place of residence Victor Hugo used when writing les miserable...it's a national treasure

he bought it when Les Miz was at it's height ...
As I tried to tell you earlier, and now others as well, you are sorely mistaken.

The only home Victor Hugo owned was his house on the British Island of Guernsey (in the English channel). This is where he lived, in exile, for 15 years and where he wrote many of his great works, including Les Miserables. In 1927!! it was donated by his granddaughter to the City of Paris. It remains a museum to this day and is still owned by the city of Paris.

Before his exile, Victor Hugo rented an apartment in Paris at Place des Vosges. It too is a museum owned by the City of Paris.

You, it seems, have confused all this with the Victor Hugo Literary House which was bought by SGI in 1989 for 7.4million euro. It was never Hugo's residence, only the home of a friend that Hugo, and many other artists would visit.
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Re: What will happen when Daisaku Ikeda dies?

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jake wrote: Thu Apr 18, 2019 6:35 pm As I tried to tell you earlier, and now others as well, you are sorely mistaken.

The only home Victor Hugo owned was his house on the British Island of Guernsey (in the English channel). This is where he lived, in exile, for 15 years and where he wrote many of his great works, including Les Miserables. In 1927!! it was donated by his granddaughter to the City of Paris. It remains a museum to this day and is still owned by the city of Paris.

Before his exile, Victor Hugo rented an apartment in Paris at Place des Vosges. It too is a museum owned by the City of Paris.

You, it seems, have confused all this with the Victor Hugo Literary House which was bought by SGI in 1989 for 7.4million euro. It was never Hugo's residence, only the home of a friend that Hugo, and many other artists would visit.
Also, don't confuse the "Victor Hugo Literary House" (owned by SGI and located near Paris) with the Victor Hugo Literary Museum, in Luxembourg which is not owned by SGI and where Hugo did reside, as a political refugee, for about 3 months in 1871. This property is owned and managed by the "Friends of the House of Victor Hugo in Vianden" since 1937.

:)
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Re: What will happen when Daisaku Ikeda dies?

Post by Bois de Santal »

I get the gist of what Minobu is saying here and I'm largely in agreement.

I know it was always argued that one of Ikeda's roles was to schmooze the rich and powerful but it just came across as a bit needy to me. And buying up chateaux (don't forget Taplow Court in the UK) amongst other major property investments never impressed me either. Ultimately, that is all they are - property investments. I'm not arguing whether it is right or wrong - it is what it is, but it is not what I would have chosen, had I been asked.
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Re: What will happen when Daisaku Ikeda dies?

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Bois de Santal wrote: Thu Apr 18, 2019 8:35 pm I get the gist of what Minobu is saying here and I'm largely in agreement.

I know it was always argued that one of Ikeda's roles was to schmooze the rich and powerful but it just came across as a bit needy to me. And buying up chateaux (don't forget Taplow Court in the UK) amongst other major property investments never impressed me either. Ultimately, that is all they are - property investments. I'm not arguing whether it is right or wrong - it is what it is, but it is not what I would have chosen, had I been asked.
I don't know if that was his role.

I think he was trying to pave the way for propagation. Making friends with influential people was one way to do that. Ie. normalizing Buddhism in places that have and continue to look on Buddhism with suspicion and hostility by making connection with influential people.

In many respects, his primary audience was not you, keep in mind, but the Japanese membership. By acquiring these properties abroad, by meeting with these famous people and presenting it as a momentous historical meeting, he was playing to them. Showing them, SG is a global organization of significance.

Modern social media and celebrity culture is actually very informative about what he was doing. The end he was getting at was trying to be uplifting, and I'm arguing, for a certain audience, it was.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma.
-Ayacana Sutta
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Minobu
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Re: What will happen when Daisaku Ikeda dies?

Post by Minobu »

jake wrote: Thu Apr 18, 2019 6:35 pm
Minobu wrote: Thu Apr 18, 2019 6:04 pm
Caoimhghín wrote: Thu Apr 18, 2019 5:53 pm

Are you sure that you aren't confusing "Victor Hugo's house" with "the Victor Hugo House?" Victor Hugo AFAIK has never lived in the château des roches.
The place of residence Victor Hugo used when writing les miserable...it's a national treasure

he bought it when Les Miz was at it's height ...
As I tried to tell you earlier, and now others as well, you are sorely mistaken.

The only home Victor Hugo owned was his house on the British Island of Guernsey (in the English channel). This is where he lived, in exile, for 15 years and where he wrote many of his great works, including Les Miserables. In 1927!! it was donated by his granddaughter to the City of Paris. It remains a museum to this day and is still owned by the city of Paris.

Before his exile, Victor Hugo rented an apartment in Paris at Place des Vosges. It too is a museum owned by the City of Paris.

You, it seems, have confused all this with the Victor Hugo Literary House which was bought by SGI in 1989 for 7.4million euro. It was never Hugo's residence, only the home of a friend that Hugo, and many other artists would visit.
thanks but....


ok people, like i recall him purchasing some house associated with victor hugo at the time of les miz ...for 65 million dollars in the 80's. He outbid everyone and it went that high.. France went bonkers...

what house it was or is ,was not my point...but 65 million was spent on a house and at the time two very expensive paintings were purchased.

what ever happened to that piece of history....well...dunno...but it did happen...many a discussion about it at the time...

I'm not trying destroy anyone ...just keep things real...
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Re: What will happen when Daisaku Ikeda dies?

Post by narhwal90 »

Minobu wrote: Thu Apr 18, 2019 5:33 pm
So it's all about raising the intellectual and artistic merits of the poor in SGI.

Sgi is bereft of intellectuals, they simply run away from the meetings. I was in a discussion with senior leaders in toronto who wanted a plan to bring in intellectuals. My point was , it's not something intellectual, it's about Buddhahood. the whole dialogue was offensive to me and laughable at their seriousness .
I have to call you on this one Minobu. On wednesday this week a local mens division leader did a home visit in his usual rotation of meeting members individually. He is a tenured professor in bioengineering, and counts his peers many other doctors who came up together as YMD in the 90's. My own personal acquaintance in SGI includes genetics scientists, accountants, several different doctors, taxi drivers, clothing salesmen, artistic woodworkers, construction workers, franchise store owners, social workers and so on- probably some lawyers too. Many of them might not be able to speak in detail about the Pali sutras for instance but they all have read and still read the gosho extensively and use it.

Its unfortunate you had a bad experience in Toronto but is it not hasty to make judgments about SGI as a whole on that basis?
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Re: What will happen when Daisaku Ikeda dies?

Post by dude »

SGI is very very diverse. That is one of its strengths.
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Re: What will happen when Daisaku Ikeda dies?

Post by illarraza »

dude wrote: Wed Mar 27, 2019 5:13 am President Ikeda has pretty much taught me everything I know about Buddhism.
It took me a good three years to accept Buddhism, and more than once a question I had in mind would get answer from him that just happened to be published in the World Tribune. I can understand, in a way, how at times. from outside the organization at least, SGI members seem to do hero-worship. I used to feel that way but I don't now.
"The Human Revolution" and The New Human Revolution," for me, provide a first-draft outline of the way forward for Buddhism in modern times. Of course the gosho is the final authority, but I find President Ikeda's guidance to be very helpful in understanding Nichiren's writings.
If the Gosho is the final authority, why do you demean Shakyamuni Buddha?
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Re: What will happen when Daisaku Ikeda dies?

Post by illarraza »

Mysticlaw wrote: Sun Apr 07, 2019 9:21 am It doesn’t matter at all. For SGI members who understood the purpose of the practice and have the correct understanding of the mentor and disciple relationship, will continue to advance in their practice and helping others to do so.

To have a correct understanding of the mentor and disciple relationship, we have to rely on the four standards [四依] , also four reliances.

From Nichrenlibrary.org: Four standards that Buddhists must follow. According to the Nirvana Sutra and the Vimalakīrti Sutra, the four standards are (1) to rely on the Law and not upon persons; (2) to rely on the meaning of the teaching and not upon the words; (3) to rely on wisdom and not upon discriminative thinking; and (4) to rely on sutras that are complete and final and not upon those that are not complete and final.

Therefore, to us, Daisaku Ikeda is a person who diligently and continuously strove to practice the mystic law that Shakyamuni was enlightened to, and encouraging members to do so through his words and actions. He used his life to teach Nichiren Buddhism to the best of his ability. When we learn about the way he live his life to realise kosen rufu, we are learning with the intention to understand the spirit and meaning behind his actions.

Below passage by Dr. Mikio Matsuoka further explains the point:
From https://www.sgi.org/resources/study-mat ... akkai.html

1.4 Mentor and disciple

Buddhist practice is usually carried out based on a relationship of mentor and disciple. Is it possible for this hierarchical relationship to interfere with the goal of realizing a humanistic approach to religion? In order to answer this question, it is essential to investigate why a mentor is needed and whether there is any disparity in religious dignity between mentor and disciple. These two points are of vital importance.

I would like to focus on the fact that Shakyamuni instructed his disciples just before his demise to make the Law their teacher. Generally, faith in an impersonal Law, due to its very impersonality, makes it difficult for people feel a sense of reverence toward the Law and often results in diminished religious zeal. To overcome this difficultly to revere the Law as the teacher, the need arises for a human teacher who can show people the Law through their teaching and behavior. This allows individuals to sense the compassionate workings of the Law as an indivisible part of the teacher's life. In this way, respect for the Law as the fundamental teacher begins to blossom in people's hearts. Bergson asserted that Buddhism lacks zeal, but I believe that Buddhists who persevere on the path of mentor and disciple, living a life of compassion based on the Law, can also obtain a level of apostolic passion evidenced by believers of monotheistic religions. In addition, because their lives are actively engaged with the ultimate Law of the cosmos, they do not lose sight of their fundamental subjectivity. By maintaining steadfast faith in the Law, Buddhist mentors and disciples keep their passion as practitioners fresh and strive to pursue a human-centered practice.
Nichiren refutes Dr. Mikio Matsuoka, head of the Soka Gakkai Study Department

Shakyamuni Buddha of the Original Doctrine, the Three Bodied Tathagata, is NOT merely an impersonal truth principle, according to Nichiren Daishonin and the Lotus Sutra. He is an actual individual who is parent, teacher, and sovereign of all mankind and the one who saves us from the various sufferings and travails [again, according to the Lotus Sutra and Nichiren Daishonin]. He should not be confused with Buddha-nature nor should he be confused with his teaching or Law which is Namu Myoho renge kyo. We have profound gratitude for Shakyamuni Buddha because he has bestowed upon us the Five or Seven Characters and the Gohonzon which contain all his merits and virtues. The head of the SGI study department has this to say:

"I would like to focus on the fact that Shakyamuni instructed his disciples just before his demise to make the Law their teacher. Generally, faith in an impersonal Law, due to its very impersonality, makes it difficult for people feel a sense of reverence toward the Law and often results in diminished religious zeal. To overcome this difficultly to revere the Law as the teacher, the need arises for a human teacher who can show people the Law through their teaching and behavior [a not so veiled reference to Daisaku Ikeda]. This allows individuals to sense the compassionate workings of the Law as an indivisible part of the teacher's life. In this way, respect for the Law as the fundamental teacher begins to blossom in people's hearts. Bergson asserted that Buddhism lacks zeal, but I believe that Buddhists who persevere on the path of mentor and disciple, living a life of compassion based on the Law, can also obtain a level of apostolic passion evidenced by believers of monotheistic religions. In addition, because their lives are actively engaged with the ultimate Law of the cosmos, they do not lose sight of their fundamental subjectivity. By maintaining steadfast faith in the Law, Buddhist mentors and disciples keep their passion as practitioners fresh and strive to pursue a human-centered practice."

Dr. Mikio Matsuoka
Researcher, Institute of Oriental Philosophy
Head of Doctrinal Studies, Association of Reformist Priests
Head of Soka Gakkai Study Department

Nichiren and his disciples however choose Shakyamuni Buddha as their mentor [Master]:

“Now , when the Eternal Buddha was revealed in the essential section of the Lotus Sutra, this world of endurance (Saha-world) became the Eternal Pure Land, indestructible even by the three calamities of conflagration, flooding, and strong winds, which are said to destroy the world. It transcends the four periods of cosmic change: the kalpa of construction, continuance, destruction and emptiness. Sakyamuni Buddha, the Lord-preacher of this pure land, has never died in the past, nor will He be born in the future. He exists forever throughout the past present and future. All those who receive His GUIDANCE are one with this Eternal Buddha.” -- The True Object of Worship

“Since Sakyamuni Buddha is eternal and all other Buddhas in the universe are his manifestations, then those great bodhisattvas converted by manifested Buddhas are also disciples of Lord Sakyamuni Buddha. If the “Life Span of the Buddha” chapter had not been expounded, it would be like the sky without the sun and moon, a country without a king, mountains and rivers without gems, or a man without a soul. nevertheless, seemingly knowledgeable men of such provisional schools of Buddhism as Ch’eng-kuan of the Hua-yen, Chia-hsiang of the San-lun, Tz’u-en of the Fa-hsiang, and Kobo of the shingon tried to extol their own canons by stating: “The Lord of the Flower Garland Sutra represents the reward-body (hojin) of the Buddha wheras that of the Lotus Sutra the accomodative body (ojin);” or “the Buddha in the sixteenth chapter of the Lotus is an Illusion; it is the great Sun Buddha who is enlightened.” clouds cover the moon and slanderers hide wise men. When people slander, ordinary yellow rocks appear to be of gold and slanderers seem to be wise. Scholars in this age of decay, blinded by slanderous words, do not see the value of a gold in the “Lifespan of the Buddha” chapter. Even among men of the Tendai school some are fooled into taking a yellow rock for gold. They should know that if Sakyamuni had not been the Eternal Buddha, there could not have been so many who received GUIDANCE from Him.” -- The Opening of the Eyes
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Re: What will happen when Daisaku Ikeda dies?

Post by illarraza »

Queequeg wrote: Thu Apr 18, 2019 12:35 am http://www.maisonlitterairedevictorhugo ... eation.htm
https://www.fujibi.or.jp/en/index.html

Its not as salacious as Minobu makes it out.

The motivation behind the Victor Hugo House and Fuji Art Museum should be understood.

You have to keep in mind that many of the members of Soka Gakkai are poor and working class. People from these backgrounds often do not feel comfortable in museums and centers of high culture. Mr. Ikeda, by doing things like these projects through Soka Gakkai intended to open these worlds of high culture to people of humble backgrounds. To give people a way in to this heritage of humanity.

I don't agree with the fundamental doctrines of Soka Gakkai, but I do think these projects are ingenious and high minded expressions of compassion - maybe not in a form that the intellectual and high falutin could actually understand. Someone born to high culture or someone who has an iconoclastic attitude might not understand. Different story for the humble salt of the earth... some might call them BoE.
I was told admission to the Fuji Art Museum is not free and it is a huge money making venture.
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