Christianity and Buddhism the same?

[adrianmannion]

I am fairly new to Buddhism but I have read many books on it.

I have a question. If you pare Buddhism back, is it not broadly the same as Christianity? But with a noticeable difference that Christianity believes in a god (and associated supernatural notions such as angels and demons etc) and Buddhism believes in re-birth (and associated supernatural notions such as other realms etc). I presume the Buddha may have thought re-birth exists because he grew up in that part of the world (India, Hinduism) where they believe in that sort of thing. Had he grew up in Israel, he may have thought that a god exists.

Meditation being another noticeable difference (although I understand Christians seem to now believe in that too now - prayers being talking to god and meditation listening to god).

But that aside, are they not more or less broadly the same? Generosity, patience, loving kindness, truthfulness etc. All being virtues to living a better life. I don't need people to go into minutiae, I am talking high level here.

[Ayu]

Mod note:
The topic was approved within this subforum "Discovering Mahayana", because it fairly is a newbie's question.

Please be aware that answers within this subforum need approval. And please avoid compairing religions, because it contravenes our ToS.
The discussion could better stay strictly on topic.

[Ayu]

No, they are not the same.
Apples and oranges are fruit, they are juicy and you can make a drink from them, but they are not the same.

[Tongnyid Dorje]

It is not very clever to trying stripe off basic believes in religion and then compare them and consider them the same. The main goal of christianity is very different to buddhism and its not the case of enviroment in which Buddha or Jesus grow up. Accordding to buddhism, Buddha had infinite wisdom, and knowledge of all his former lives, thats why he taught reincarnation. Also in Bible you can find story of man, who was born blind and disciples asked Jesus if it is bc of his previous actions (very paraphrased). Also, the basic core of buddhism, teachings on 3 characteristics of existence, the Path of cultivating ones mind, depended origination....nothing of these you can find in christianity. View in christianity is very different from buddhism.

So, you have to buy each religion in its whole, not to avoid any of its basic teachings.

[adrianmannion]

Edit:

I should have said Christian teaching as compared to Four Noble Truths, Eightfold Path, Precepts. So really, I should have said how one lives a good moral life, they are basically the same?

Again I would like to re-emphasise that I am aware that in Christian teaching the emphasis is different, on salvation, but both teachings seem to be very similar in the way one lives a good life. Also, when I mention god, I am also bringing in to that a soul, which I appreciate Buddhists do not believe in.

This is an important question for me, because I do not believe in any of the supernatural stuff, so teachings around god, other realms, re-birth and the like are not important to me.

I am interested in living a good life, both for myself and others.

Thanks.

[Schrödinger’s Yidam]

They have things in common such as you mentioned. But they're not the same. In the earliest form of Buddhism you don't even have anybody to pray to whatsoever since the goal is to stop the process of reincarnation by stopping the flow between lives. Later forms of Buddhism do have dieties and prayer, but there's never an omnipotent creator God you have to fear or negotiate with.

[Norwegian]

In the earliest form of Buddhism you don't even have anybody to pray to whatsoever

Later forms of Buddhism do have dieties and prayer

Completely wrong.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .piya.html

[Tongnyid Dorje]

Edit:

I should have said Christian teaching as compared to Four Noble Truths, Eightfold Path, Precepts. So really, I should have said how one lives a good moral life, they are basically the same?

Again I would like to re-emphasise that I am aware that in Christian teaching the emphasis is different, on salvation, but both teachings seem to be very similar in the way one lives a good life. Also, when I mention god, I am also bringing in to that a soul, which I appreciate Buddhists do not believe in.

This is an important question for me, because I do not believe in any of the supernatural stuff, so teachings around god, other realms, re-birth and the like are not important to me.

I am interested in living a good life, both for myself and others.

Thanks.

well, to live a good life you dont realy need any religion, you can just be good person, thats all.

[justsit]

Also, when I mention god, I am also bringing in to that a soul, which I appreciate Buddhists do not believe in.

This is an important question for me, because I do not believe in any of the supernatural stuff, so teachings around god, other realms, re-birth and the like are not important to me.

I am interested in living a good life, both for myself and others.

It is possible to live a good life without a god, Christian or otherwise. Do good, avoid evil, love your neighbor as yourself, etc. are very basic instructions found in many religions.

How do you find it important to live a good life, if you don't believe "teachings around god?" Are you referring to any god? If the goal is "heaven" or "salvation for a soul," how is that not supernatural? Not really sure I understand your question.

[adrianmannion]

They have things in common such as you mentioned. But they're not the same. In the earliest form of Buddhism you don't even have anybody to pray to whatsoever since the goal is to stop the process of reincarnation by stopping the flow between lives. Later forms of Buddhism do have dieties and prayer, but there's never an omnipotent creator God you have to fear or negotiate with.

Thanks for the response, and to all that responded.

See my earlier comments. Not a god, re-birth or associated beliefs. I accept the beliefs are completely different there (but to note those differences are irrelevant to me as I do not believe in either a god, gods, re-birth etc).

As far as I can see, the teachings or philosophy on how to live a good life are broadly the same in both Christianity and Buddhism. I am open to being convinced otherwise on this which is why I posted this question, but I have yet to be convinced otherwise?

Therefore, if I or another person do not believe in a god, re-birth or associated beliefs, for me as an atheist the teachings of Christianity and Buddhism seem to be broadly the same. Not identical (obviously), but broadly the same.

Thanks again.

[adrianmannion]

It is not very clever to trying stripe off basic believes in religion and then compare them and consider them the same. The main goal of christianity is very different to buddhism and its not the case of enviroment in which Buddha or Jesus grow up. Accordding to buddhism, Buddha had infinite wisdom, and knowledge of all his former lives, thats why he taught reincarnation. Also in Bible you can find story of man, who was born blind and disciples asked Jesus if it is bc of his previous actions (very paraphrased). Also, the basic core of buddhism, teachings on 3 characteristics of existence, the Path of cultivating ones mind, depended origination....nothing of these you can find in christianity. View in christianity is very different from buddhism.

So, you have to buy each religion in its whole, not to avoid any of its basic teachings.

Interesting thanks for responding.

Dependent origination. I accept that the supernatural beliefs in both religions are entirely different. See earlier comments.

Three characteristics of existence. Jesus would have extolled the view that this life is suffering (although there would be differences in beliefs on the supernatural side - god v re-birth). I do not recall Jesus ever claiming that anything is permanent apart from god and soul (see earlier comments this is carved out from question). Anatta - a difference here again - there is an unchanging, permanent self or essence can be found which is a soul in Christianity, but again I am asking people to stay clear of that area.

I would ask people to keep out of that supernatural area of discussion, clearly the beliefs there are completely different.

My question (that I have since clarified in my thread) is whether the way to live a good life is broadly the same in Christianity and Buddhism. Yes, they offer completely different supernatural beliefs as I discussed earlier, but they are not irrelevant to me because I respectfully do not believe in anything supernatural. I believe that we are composed of carbon and will return to the soil; that is not to offend anyone, it is stating my belief.

But I am very interested in Buddhism as a way of life. As a path to help myself and others. Thanks for taking time to respond.

[conebeckham]

It is not very clever to trying stripe off basic believes in religion and then compare them and consider them the same. The main goal of christianity is very different to buddhism and its not the case of enviroment in which Buddha or Jesus grow up. Accordding to buddhism, Buddha had infinite wisdom, and knowledge of all his former lives, thats why he taught reincarnation. Also in Bible you can find story of man, who was born blind and disciples asked Jesus if it is bc of his previous actions (very paraphrased). Also, the basic core of buddhism, teachings on 3 characteristics of existence, the Path of cultivating ones mind, depended origination....nothing of these you can find in christianity. View in christianity is very different from buddhism.

So, you have to buy each religion in its whole, not to avoid any of its basic teachings.

Interesting thanks for responding.

Dependent origination. I accept that the supernatural beliefs in both religions are entirely different. See earlier comments.

Three characteristics of existence. Jesus would have extolled the view that this life is suffering (although there would be differences in beliefs on the supernatural side - god v re-birth). I do not recall Jesus ever claiming that anything is permanent apart from god and soul (see earlier comments this is carved out from question). Anatta - a difference here again - there is an unchanging, permanent self or essence can be found which is a soul in Christianity, but again I am asking people to stay clear of that area.

I would ask people to keep out of that supernatural area of discussion, clearly the beliefs there are completely different.

My question (that I have since clarified in my thread) is whether the way to live a good life is broadly the same in Christianity and Buddhism. Yes, they offer completely different supernatural beliefs as I discussed earlier, but they are not irrelevant to me because I respectfully do not believe in anything supernatural. I believe that we are composed of carbon and will return to the soil; that is not to offend anyone, it is stating my belief.

But I am very interested in Buddhism as a way of life. As a path to help myself and others. Thanks for taking time to respond.

Do you think Dependent Origination is "supernatural?"

With regard to Rebirth--Christianity also accepted this, at least initially, and the idea of "purgatory" as well as a denial of "rebirth" are not original Christian ideas.

Most ethical systems --in all religions and in much secular philosophy--could be argued to be "broadly similar." The question of why to live a "good life" in the first place, though, is a central question of all religions, and cannot be tossed away.

Why do you want to help yourself and others? Why not just seek the greatest benefit and pleasure for yourself, if you believe that we are "composed of carbon and will return to the soil?" If that is the case, then why does the quality, or quantity, of one's life matter?

Those are religious questions, IMO.

Finally, with regard to your belief about being composed of carbon--does this mean that you feel sentient beings are merely matter, subject only to the laws of physics? What part does consciousness play in your world view? IS the mind emergent from matter, or something else?

[Johnny Dangerous]

Most teachings on morality are broadly similar, if you wanna get that vague then sure, they are ‘the same’. If all you are looking at is a super basic moral code though, sorry, that is not rocket science and does not even require religion at all.

In Buddhism however, you cannot separate ethics, goodwill, etc. from wisdom - I.e. understanding of how things are, they inform each other. There are aspects of the Eightfold Path that only make sense in a Buddhist context.

So, Buddhism wouldn’t be Buddhism with an all powerful creator god. In fact, the Buddhist model of rebirth precludes the idea of a prime mover. The Eightfold Path is predicated on the idea of rebirth, even though there are some strictly worldly benefits.

I think possibly you have a fairly superficial idea about what Buddhism is, you should probably read more before trying to make this kind of comparison.

If you are just interested in living a good life and believe your existence will terminate at the end of this one, I don’t really see why you’d invest time in Buddhism, Buddhism hinges on at least glimpsing the possibility that there is a goal which you would deem ‘supernatural’ and which is relevant beyond this lifetime generally.
The Dalai Lama has some good books on things like Secular Ethics, and there are a ton of Buddhist- inspired and other types of self help books focusing on ethics, transforming thoughts and relationships, etc. You can look into teachings on the Four Immeasurables as well, which are pretty universal.

Honestly though, it’s not very productive to compare things you don’t know much about, especially if you take a completely secular point of view and are comparing religions. Seems like a great way to reinforce your own biases, more than anything else.

[KathyLauren]

It is true that there is much overlap between Christianity and Buddhism when it comes to moral and ethical conduct. This is only natural because many of these values are universal among human societies.

A big source of difference is in the idea of a Creator. Not just "gods", but a Creator, specifically. The Buddhist teachings on dependent origination preclude there being a Creator. For there to be a Creator, that entity would have to exist inherently. The teachings are quite clear that aall phenomena are created from causes and conditions. An inherently-existing entity can have no cause, and cannot create ordinary phenomena.

That rules out the existence of a Creator god, which is kind of fundamental to Christianity.

On a superficial level, Buddhist and Christians can find lots in common, and can work together on some common goals. But a true Christian can never accept Buddhist teachings without giving up something fundamental to Christianity, and a true Buddhist can never accept Christian teachings without giving up something fundamental to Buddhism.

Om mani padme hum
Kathy

[Shinjin]

Christianity if practiced correctly can lead to a heavenly realm after death. So does Buddhism but the end goal is nirvana, not a heavenly realm.

[Schrödinger’s Yidam]

In the earliest form of Buddhism you don't even have anybody to pray to whatsoever

Later forms of Buddhism do have dieties and prayer

Completely wrong.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .piya.html

The Shravakayana view has many celestial beings. However they are all in samsara. The following quote from Thrangu R. references the "cessation without remainder", which means there is nothing left once one is liberated and is an Arhat.


Medicine Buddha Teachings p.159

...in the common vehicle, the basic teachings of the buddha, [the hinayana teachings (sic)], it appears as though it is taught that the ultimate result of the path is what is called arhat without remainder. There it is taught that when someone completes the path--which means they remove or abandon all the causes of samsara, all karma, and all kleshas--then they naturally attain the result of that removal, which is the cessation of the results of those causes, which means the total cessation of samsaric existence for that individual. Since they have abandoned the causes and experience the cessation of results, according to the common vehicle, there is nothing whatsoever left.--which is called arhat without remainder. So from the point of view from the common vehicle, one's own liberation , without any exception whatsoever, upon one's attainment through meditation, and there is no point whatsoever in supplication or prayer to anyone or anything outside oneself, because there is simply no one to pray to.

The vajrayana view is different from that. According to the vajrayana, as according to the mahayana, there have appeared innumerable buddhas and bodhisattvas.....[edit for brevity].....Having attained budddhahood, they actually have the capacity to grant their blessings, and it is for that reason that we make offerings, that we perform prostrations, that we supplicate, and so on.

I've typed it as it was in the book, a disparaging term and lack of capitalizations included.

[adrianmannion]

It is not very clever to trying stripe off basic believes in religion and then compare them and consider them the same. The main goal of christianity is very different to buddhism and its not the case of enviroment in which Buddha or Jesus grow up. Accordding to buddhism, Buddha had infinite wisdom, and knowledge of all his former lives, thats why he taught reincarnation. Also in Bible you can find story of man, who was born blind and disciples asked Jesus if it is bc of his previous actions (very paraphrased). Also, the basic core of buddhism, teachings on 3 characteristics of existence, the Path of cultivating ones mind, depended origination....nothing of these you can find in christianity. View in christianity is very different from buddhism.

So, you have to buy each religion in its whole, not to avoid any of its basic teachings.

Interesting thanks for responding.

Dependent origination. I accept that the supernatural beliefs in both religions are entirely different. See earlier comments.

Three characteristics of existence. Jesus would have extolled the view that this life is suffering (although there would be differences in beliefs on the supernatural side - god v re-birth). I do not recall Jesus ever claiming that anything is permanent apart from god and soul (see earlier comments this is carved out from question). Anatta - a difference here again - there is an unchanging, permanent self or essence can be found which is a soul in Christianity, but again I am asking people to stay clear of that area.

I would ask people to keep out of that supernatural area of discussion, clearly the beliefs there are completely different.

My question (that I have since clarified in my thread) is whether the way to live a good life is broadly the same in Christianity and Buddhism. Yes, they offer completely different supernatural beliefs as I discussed earlier, but they are not irrelevant to me because I respectfully do not believe in anything supernatural. I believe that we are composed of carbon and will return to the soil; that is not to offend anyone, it is stating my belief.

But I am very interested in Buddhism as a way of life. As a path to help myself and others. Thanks for taking time to respond.

Do you think Dependent Origination is "supernatural?"

With regard to Rebirth--Christianity also accepted this, at least initially, and the idea of "purgatory" as well as a denial of "rebirth" are not original Christian ideas.

Most ethical systems --in all religions and in much secular philosophy--could be argued to be "broadly similar." The question of why to live a "good life" in the first place, though, is a central question of all religions, and cannot be tossed away.

Why do you want to help yourself and others? Why not just seek the greatest benefit and pleasure for yourself, if you believe that we are "composed of carbon and will return to the soil?" If that is the case, then why does the quality, or quantity, of one's life matter?

Those are religious questions, IMO.

Finally, with regard to your belief about being composed of carbon--does this mean that you feel sentient beings are merely matter, subject only to the laws of physics? What part does consciousness play in your world view? IS the mind emergent from matter, or something else?

Interesting questions.

Dependent origination is supernatural in my view if it involves any consideration of re-birth. If it is interpreted simply as the law of cause and effect, or as Christians with a non-scientific slant might understand it from the Bible, you reap what you sow, than it is certainly not supernatural.

On your question of why do I care about the quality of my life, that's a rational question with a rational answer. All organisms seek to reduce or avoid pain and stress, a law of nature if you will. From bacteria to the most complex organisms. I seek to reduce my suffering and because homo sapiens are a high social animal, I know that will in part be dictated by my relationships with others.

To answer your question, yes, in my view the mind is emergent from matter. All organisms are composed of carbon, from the least complex to the most complex. Science has not yet answered everything. If you had asked, for example, a Christian 300 years ago how something as complex as the eye could be created without a god, they would have said impossible. But a quick google will show you how the complex eye has evolved from extremely rudimentary beginnings to a highly complex sensory organ. Because I cannot explain it now, does not mean that in 300 years time science will not have an explanation of consciousness than I cannot offer now.

[adrianmannion]

Most teachings on morality are broadly similar, if you wanna get that vague then sure, they are ‘the same’. If all you are looking at is a super basic moral code though, sorry, that is not rocket science and does not even require religion at all.

In Buddhism however, you cannot separate ethics, goodwill, etc. from wisdom - I.e. understanding of how things are, they inform each other. There are aspects of the Eightfold Path that only make sense in a Buddhist context.

So, Buddhism wouldn’t be Buddhism with an all powerful creator god. In fact, the Buddhist model of rebirth precludes the idea of a prime mover. The Eightfold Path is predicated on the idea of rebirth, even though there are some strictly worldly benefits.

I think possibly you have a fairly superficial idea about what Buddhism is, you should probably read more before trying to make this kind of comparison.

If you are just interested in living a good life and believe your existence will terminate at the end of this one, I don’t really see why you’d invest time in Buddhism, Buddhism hinges on at least glimpsing the possibility that there is a goal which you would deem ‘supernatural’ and which is relevant beyond this lifetime generally.
The Dalai Lama has some good books on things like Secular Ethics, and there are a ton of Buddhist- inspired and other types of self help books focusing on ethics, transforming thoughts and relationships, etc. You can look into teachings on the Four Immeasurables as well, which are pretty universal.

Honestly though, it’s not very productive to compare things you don’t know much about, especially if you take a completely secular point of view and are comparing religions. Seems like a great way to reinforce your own biases, more than anything else.

OK, noted.

I suppose I am wondering is if there is anything in Buddhist philosophy for an atheist that is worth exploring, that is not already in Christian teaching?

From the many books on Buddhism that I have read there seems to be very little difference.

Apart from the supernatural beliefs, which I respectfully do not buy into.

This is a thread on discovering Buddhism so I think it is a fair question to ask.

[adrianmannion]

It is true that there is much overlap between Christianity and Buddhism when it comes to moral and ethical conduct. This is only natural because many of these values are universal among human societies.

A big source of difference is in the idea of a Creator. Not just "gods", but a Creator, specifically. The Buddhist teachings on dependent origination preclude there being a Creator. For there to be a Creator, that entity would have to exist inherently. The teachings are quite clear that aall phenomena are created from causes and conditions. An inherently-existing entity can have no cause, and cannot create ordinary phenomena.

That rules out the existence of a Creator god, which is kind of fundamental to Christianity.

On a superficial level, Buddhist and Christians can find lots in common, and can work together on some common goals. But a true Christian can never accept Buddhist teachings without giving up something fundamental to Christianity, and a true Buddhist can never accept Christian teachings without giving up something fundamental to Buddhism.

Om mani padme hum
Kathy

Thanks Kathy. Yes all noted.

I agree there are certainly differences on the supernatural side of things that cannot be reconciled.

My question is on the philosophical side. From what I have read the philosophy / teachings seem to be broadly the same. So if you take away the supernatural side of things, which as an atheist I respectfully do not believe in, the two seem to me to be broadly the same.

[Jeff H]

The Dalai Lama strongly embraces all the things you are labeling as superstitious about Buddhism, but he wrote Beyond Religion for people like you who really just want a clearly reasoned approach to moral behavior. For most of the book he doesn't identify the principles he applies as Buddhist. But then at the end, if you are interested, he shows how everything he has said becomes deeply enriched and infinitely more subtle if you integrate it with the teachings of Buddhism. That book might turn out to be exactly what you've asked for on this forum: no "superstition" required. You don't have to read it to the end.

Elsewhere HHDL has said that it's ok to practice Buddhism and Christianity together to a point. But eventually you have choose one way or another.