Is samsara meant literal or not

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yinyangkoi
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Is samsara meant literal or not

Post by yinyangkoi »

As far as I understand it, samsara represents different stages of consciousness, or perhaps even emotions, for example frustration, lust, anger, etc. However I am not sure. Some people seem to believe it is meant literal, that remaining karma at death causes the birth in the specific realm. Which one is correct? And if I am unaffected by karma, does it mean I have attained buddhahood?
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Re: Is samsara meant literal or not

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yinyangkoi wrote: Tue Jul 20, 2021 7:07 pm As far as I understand it, samsara represents different stages of consciousness, or perhaps even emotions, for example frustration, lust, anger, etc. However I am not sure. Some people seem to believe it is meant literal, that remaining karma at death causes the birth in the specific realm. Which one is correct? And if I am unaffected by karma, does it mean I have attained buddhahood?
Here's how my own reasoning has gone over the years, I have a rationalist disposition in some ways, so just accepting stories about Devas etc. purely at face value is not really in my DNA so to speak:

It is not "literal" since it is all like a dream or illusion, but it is literal in the sense of cause and effect carrying across lifetimes until all causes are exhausted and one leaves for good. In fact, there is no such thing as a "literal" experience at all, because appearances originate in the mind, and nowhere else.

As far as realms the literal question also does not quite hit it, there is a limitation in our experiences in that (for most at least) we only have experiences that we can recall of the human realm, so the rest can only be gotten at in terms of analogy, etc.

I can examine the range of human experience through my own eyes, even in one lifetime, to see how broad the spectrum is. The older I get the broader the spectrum seems to be. The realms are experiences outside of that bandwidth, so to speak. For me it is less important to believe that the descriptions of them are literal than it is to understand the possibility that the Human experience is one band in a much larger spectrum, and they refer to actual states, though not necessarily literal physical descriptions.
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Re: Is samsara meant literal or not

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Johnny Dangerous wrote: Tue Jul 20, 2021 7:28 pm It is not "literal" since it is all like a dream or illusion, but it is literal in the sense of cause and effect carrying across lifetimes until all causes are exhausted and one leaves for good. In fact, there is no such thing as a "literal" experience at all, because appearances originate in the mind, and nowhere else.
What do you mean one leaves for good? I thought the self is just a hallucination. In reality it's just
I can examine the range of human experience through my own eyes, even in one lifetime, to see how broad the spectrum is. The older I get the broader the spectrum seems to be. The realms are experiences outside of that bandwidth, so to speak. For me it is less important to believe that the descriptions of them are literal than it is to understand the possibility that the Human experience is one band in a much larger spectrum, and they refer to actual states, though not necessarily literal physical descriptions.
I don't understand what you are saying. Can you rephrase it in a simpler way.
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Re: Is samsara meant literal or not

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yinyangkoi wrote: Tue Jul 20, 2021 7:50 pm
What do you mean one leaves for good? I thought the self is just a hallucination. In reality it's just
Nirvana, Full enlightenment, etc...no longer in samsara.

I don't understand what you are saying. Can you rephrase it in a simpler way.
Not sure how else to put it, the human experience is a small band in a much greater spectrum, which we can't even see the edges of. We are born into different places on that spectrum depending on the causes we create every moment for future births. To me that is more important than the descriptions, which are colorful ways to describe states of being, them being literal or not is less important to me personally.
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Re: Is samsara meant literal or not

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yinyangkoi wrote: Tue Jul 20, 2021 7:07 pm As far as I understand it, samsara represents different stages of consciousness, or perhaps even emotions, for example frustration, lust, anger, etc. However I am not sure. Some people seem to believe it is meant literal, that remaining karma at death causes the birth in the specific realm. Which one is correct? And if I am unaffected by karma, does it mean I have attained buddhahood?
The two options you describe are, in fact,
the same thing.
“You” (and to a large extent, your physical body) die and are reborn every second. Basically cloning your own imagined identity moment by moment, each one based on (but not an exact replica of) the immediately preceding one.

Actually, by the time you are 22 years old, you have lived through three entirely different human bodies.
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Re: Is samsara meant literal or not

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Well if it's meant literal, I don't want a bad rebirth to happen, so I would have to become a buddha by any means necessary, or at least a monk to guarantee a good rebirth. But if it's just conceptualization of emotions and being a buddha is being free from being affected by them (cause you don't take it personally since you neither exist nor not exist) then I can relax and remain a lay person
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Re: Is samsara meant literal or not

Post by yinyangkoi »

PadmaVonSamba wrote: Tue Jul 20, 2021 8:08 pm
The two options you describe are, in fact,
the same thing.
“You” (and to a large extent, your physical body) die and are reborn every second. Basically cloning your own imagined identity moment by moment, each one based on (but not an exact replica of) the immediately preceding one.

Actually, by the time you are 22 years old, you have lived through three entirely different human bodies.
How are the things I describe the same thing?

I am aware that there is no permanent self and it's conditioned, depending on the conditions it causes a different self.
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Re: Is samsara meant literal or not

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yinyangkoi wrote: Tue Jul 20, 2021 8:25 pm Well if it's meant literal, I don't want a bad rebirth to happen, so I would have to become a buddha by any means necessary, or at least a monk to guarantee a good rebirth. But if it's just conceptualization of emotions and being a buddha is being free from being affected by them (cause you don't take it personally since you neither exist nor not exist) then I can relax and remain a lay person
It isn't "just emotions", but it doesn't need to be a forced sense of conviction about being reborn as a beautiful being with six arms in whatever heaven, or a literal hell being either, I think it's good to seek a deeper meaning in contemplation of Samsara than stopping at either of those surface explanations, though they both can hold some truth I imagine.

Even if it were just being reborn at the lowest levels of human existence, that is pretty bad and worth avoiding.

There are all kinds of valid approaches to Buddhist practice for laypeople.
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Re: Is samsara meant literal or not

Post by Jesse »

yinyangkoi wrote: Tue Jul 20, 2021 8:28 pm
PadmaVonSamba wrote: Tue Jul 20, 2021 8:08 pm
The two options you describe are, in fact,
the same thing.
“You” (and to a large extent, your physical body) die and are reborn every second. Basically cloning your own imagined identity moment by moment, each one based on (but not an exact replica of) the immediately preceding one.

Actually, by the time you are 22 years old, you have lived through three entirely different human bodies.
How are the things I describe the same thing?

I am aware that there is no permanent self and it's conditioned, depending on the conditions it causes a different self.
Rebirths don't exclusively happen after your physical body passes away. We are constantly going through rebirth cycles. In each and every moment. The realms of rebirth are interpreted both literally, and as analogies depending on practitioners lineage, place of birth, and belief systems.

Saying thing's are one way or another quickly gets self defeating, and inaccurate. Describing reality takes a sort of knack, and understanding. The basic understanding is that perceptions are in general deceptive, or more common stated - appearances are deceiving.

You can say the formless realms exist, but they are also heavily illusory. Reality breaks down upon examination. That doesn't mean reality doesn't exist, or that reality exists absolutely, it just means reality is depending on causes and conditions. Just as Buddhism prescribes a middle view of thing's, when viewing reality is takes a fair amount of understanding.

So the answer imho is really; it depends. You don't need to be a monk, or a fully realized Buddha to gain a good rebirth. Practice opens the door to good rebirths in general. Practicing the Bodhisattva path makes good rebirths highly likely. From the moment compassion arises in your mind, you have an optimal rebirth.

If you are concerned about loss of control over what you be reborn as after your physical body dies, the only thing I can really say is to continue to practice. By building good karma and merit, you will be unlikely to reborn in any terrible circumstances. There are also ways to skirt bad rebirths.
Amida Butsu, or Amida Nyorai as he is called in Mikkyo (esoteric) practice, is the Buddha of Infinite Light & Life.

It is believed that Spiritual Peace of Mind and salvation are to be achieved by relying on his power.

The Nembutsu or mantra of Amida: "namu amida butsu" is used widely in Japanese Buddhism and is of core significance in Jodoshu (Pure Land sect) Buddhism.

One should chant the Nembutsu until a state single-minded focus and concentration is achieved.

The Nembutsu is said to generate great merit and great compassion, and to produce untold benefits including the sharpening one's powers of concentration.

By the Grace of Amida, the Nembutsu brings Spiritual Peace of Mind ('Spiritual Composure') to the individual reciting the mantra, or to any other being to whom the recitor chooses to 'transfer' this merit.

It is said that chanting the Nembutsu at the time of ones own death is the simplest method of ensuring rebirth in the Western Pure Land - the 'heaven' or spiritual domain of Amida Butsu.
This practice is designed specifically for those who are unsure of their own potential, and ability to reach enlightenment on their own merits, and ability. It works.
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Re: Is samsara meant literal or not

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As long as there are sentient beings that suffer, there will be samsara. Which one of them happens to be "you" seems almost irrelevant from the viewpoint of a Bodhisattva, right?
"One should cultivate contemplation in one’s foibles. The foibles are like fish, and contemplation is like fishing hooks. If there are no fish, then the fishing hooks have no use. The bigger the fish is, the better the result we will get. As long as the fishing hooks keep at it, all foibles will eventually be contained and controlled at will." -Zhiyi

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Re: Is samsara meant literal or not

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yinyangkoi wrote: Tue Jul 20, 2021 8:28 pm
PadmaVonSamba wrote: Tue Jul 20, 2021 8:08 pm
The two options you describe are, in fact,
the same thing.
“You” (and to a large extent, your physical body) die and are reborn every second. Basically cloning your own imagined identity moment by moment, each one based on (but not an exact replica of) the immediately preceding one.

Actually, by the time you are 22 years old, you have lived through three entirely different human bodies.
How are the things I describe the same thing?
Because ultimately there is no difference between the stream of consciousness of mind within a lifetime, and that same stream arising with one body and then in the next life, another body.
All that’s changing is the body, just as within this life the body is always changing.
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Re: Is samsara meant literal or not

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"Stuck in samsara" means literal, continuous birth and death in various realms of rebirth. Like this one we are in now, the human realm. It's not just a metaphor, it's just as real as this human life and body is. If you make bad karma, you could be reborn as a dog, just like the neighbors dog down the street, literally.
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Re: Is samsara meant literal or not

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seeker242 wrote: Wed Jul 21, 2021 5:29 am "Stuck in samsara" means literal, continuous birth and death in various realms of rebirth. Like this one we are in now, the human realm. It's not just a metaphor, it's just as real as this human life and body is. If you make bad karma, you could be reborn as a dog, just like the neighbors dog down the street, literally.
This is my position as well. To be a Buddhist is to believe in reincarnation as an actual fact; I don't see much way around it.

However, it should be noted that from the standpoint of all phenomena being ultimately empty of inherent self-existence, the difference between samsara and nirvana is only a conventional difference, as per Nagarjuna's famous and often startling declaration to such effect.

This has no bearing on reincarnation as conventionally understood, however.
"One should cultivate contemplation in one’s foibles. The foibles are like fish, and contemplation is like fishing hooks. If there are no fish, then the fishing hooks have no use. The bigger the fish is, the better the result we will get. As long as the fishing hooks keep at it, all foibles will eventually be contained and controlled at will." -Zhiyi

"Just be kind." -Atisha
yinyangkoi
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Re: Is samsara meant literal or not

Post by yinyangkoi »

seeker242 wrote: Wed Jul 21, 2021 5:29 am "Stuck in samsara" means literal, continuous birth and death in various realms of rebirth. Like this one we are in now, the human realm. It's not just a metaphor, it's just as real as this human life and body is. If you make bad karma, you could be reborn as a dog, just like the neighbors dog down the street, literally.
Alright but how do you gain this insight? How can I know for myself. I don't want to believe something blindly
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Re: Is samsara meant literal or not

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Alright but how do you gain this insight? How can I know for myself. I don't want to believe something blindly
When we study pre-calculus, we don't yet know experientially the truths of calculus and higher math like set theory or whatnot. But we trust that what our elders and instructors say is true; that the math textbooks are not full of lies, and that if we continue to dilligently cultivate our skills, someday we too may be able to reach an instinctive understanding of Non- Cantorian theory and gain the ability to effortlessly manipulate transfinite ordinal numbers. We have trust in the wisdom and skill of the great geniuses that went before us.

To be a Buddhist is to be a Buddhist. It involves patience and yes, to a certain extent, the dreaded F-word... faith.

To be a Buddhist is to believe in the eternal truth of the Dharma and to take refuge in the three gems. This involves upholding the Dharma and understanding the seriousness of slandering the Dharma. We don't go picking and choosing among the truths of the Eternal Dharma as Buddhists. This is my view as a capital-B Buddhist, and not a "Dharma-lite" new ager.

All humans are free to believe whatever they wish, of course. But I believe when you take refuge in the three gems, you sign on for the whole package. And I am confident in time that if I continue to cultivate, things I don't necessarily have direct experience in yet will indeed come to light.
:anjali:
"One should cultivate contemplation in one’s foibles. The foibles are like fish, and contemplation is like fishing hooks. If there are no fish, then the fishing hooks have no use. The bigger the fish is, the better the result we will get. As long as the fishing hooks keep at it, all foibles will eventually be contained and controlled at will." -Zhiyi

"Just be kind." -Atisha
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Re: Is samsara meant literal or not

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yinyangkoi wrote: Wed Jul 21, 2021 8:08 am
seeker242 wrote: Wed Jul 21, 2021 5:29 am "Stuck in samsara" means literal, continuous birth and death in various realms of rebirth. Like this one we are in now, the human realm. It's not just a metaphor, it's just as real as this human life and body is. If you make bad karma, you could be reborn as a dog, just like the neighbors dog down the street, literally.
Alright but how do you gain this insight? How can I know for myself. I don't want to believe something blindly
That’s good. The Buddha said not to believe something simply because he said it was so. You need to be able to test it out for yourself in order to have actual conviction. You can never really make yourself believe anything.

So, how do you test out the theory of samsara and rebirth (besides dying)?

One thing is, you have to go back and examine your own understanding of what is being referred to… what continues, what takes rebirth. For example, what exactly is it that you want to determine? Is it that other realms exist which are just as real as this one? If that’s the case, then you need to examine and determine on what basis you experience your own human existence right now as ‘real’. Is it because of sensory information? Is it because of the feeling of continuity from one moment to the next? So, first you need to examine this way, to make sure that you aren’t likewise starting out with a lot of blind assumptions about “real”.

Very often what people find difficult to accept about the Buddhist teachings —aren’t really the Buddhist teachings at all. The idea for example that “I” might be reborn as a dog in my next life, but that still somehow it’s who I was in this life, like a continuously existing soul, that’s not Buddhist teaching.

But, if you understand that there’s nothing to be found that is truly a ‘self’ , and that precisely because there is no “self” is why rebirth can occur, then this shouldn’t be difficult. Ultimately there’s no real “me” existing in one realm or another. There is merely the mental experience.

The various “realms” are, after all, just states of mind. But they are experienced as being just as real as you or I experience this life. Other than that, it’s all the same universe. Thus, if you are hot and thirsty and I give you a glass of cold water, you will experience it as pleasant and refreshing. But a being whose mind is a hungry ghost mind, who is also thirsty, will see that water as a pus or urine or something disgusting and will not be able to drink it.

If the question is whether there is some invisible dimension where hungry ghosts are all gathered (or devas or asuras or whatever) the way things are illustrated in pictures, remember, pictures are simply an artist’s representation.

But consider the animal realm. We can see animals. Humans and apes even share the same ancestors. Now, do we say that the human realm and animal realm overlap? Do they exist side by side? Do they compete with each other? Do house pets and farm animals live in the human realm but wild animals don’t? It’s good to examine these kinds of questions in order to determine for yourself what exactly a “realm” is, and whether it is a dimension, a geographic location, a type of physical body, or a state of mind… or something else?

I don’t think it’s possible to force oneself to believe something. You can only fool yourself into thinking you truly believe something. However, it is also very likely that with such analytical examination you will arrive at an understanding of the various realms, something beyond merely metaphors for the different moods we go through during the day, that you can accept as valid.
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Re: Is samsara meant literal or not

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PadmaVonSamba wrote: Wed Jul 21, 2021 12:38 pm
yinyangkoi wrote: Wed Jul 21, 2021 8:08 am
seeker242 wrote: Wed Jul 21, 2021 5:29 am "Stuck in samsara" means literal, continuous birth and death in various realms of rebirth. Like this one we are in now, the human realm. It's not just a metaphor, it's just as real as this human life and body is. If you make bad karma, you could be reborn as a dog, just like the neighbors dog down the street, literally.
Alright but how do you gain this insight? How can I know for myself. I don't want to believe something blindly
That’s good. The Buddha said not to believe something simply because he said it was so. You need to be able to test it out for yourself in order to have actual conviction. You can never really make yourself believe anything.

So, how do you test out the theory of samsara and rebirth (besides dying)?

One thing is, you have to go back and examine your own understanding of what is being referred to… what continues, what takes rebirth. For example, what exactly is it that you want to determine? Is it that other realms exist which are just as real as this one? If that’s the case, then you need to examine and determine on what basis you experience your own human existence right now as ‘real’. Is it because of sensory information? Is it because of the feeling of continuity from one moment to the next? So, first you need to examine this way, to make sure that you aren’t likewise starting out with a lot of blind assumptions about “real”.

Very often what people find difficult to accept about the Buddhist teachings —aren’t really the Buddhist teachings at all. The idea for example that “I” might be reborn as a dog in my next life, but that still somehow it’s who I was in this life, like a continuously existing soul, that’s not Buddhist teaching.

But, if you understand that there’s nothing to be found that is truly a ‘self’ , and that precisely because there is no “self” is why rebirth can occur, then this shouldn’t be difficult. Ultimately there’s no real “me” existing in one realm or another. There is merely the mental experience.

The various “realms” are, after all, just states of mind. But they are experienced as being just as real as you or I experience this life. Other than that, it’s all the same universe. Thus, if you are hot and thirsty and I give you a glass of cold water, you will experience it as pleasant and refreshing. But a being whose mind is a hungry ghost mind, who is also thirsty, will see that water as a pus or urine or something disgusting and will not be able to drink it.

If the question is whether there is some invisible dimension where hungry ghosts are all gathered (or devas or asuras or whatever) the way things are illustrated in pictures, remember, pictures are simply an artist’s representation.

But consider the animal realm. We can see animals. Humans and apes even share the same ancestors. Now, do we say that the human realm and animal realm overlap? Do they exist side by side? Do they compete with each other? Do house pets and farm animals live in the human realm but wild animals don’t? It’s good to examine these kinds of questions in order to determine for yourself what exactly a “realm” is, and whether it is a dimension, a geographic location, a type of physical body, or a state of mind… or something else?

I don’t think it’s possible to force oneself to believe something. You can only fool yourself into thinking you truly believe something. However, it is also very likely that with such analytical examination you will arrive at an understanding of the various realms, something beyond merely metaphors for the different moods we go through during the day, that you can accept as valid.
… then, after that is all sorted out, go back and consider that the whole need for things to “make sense”, for a square to always have four sides and four corners, and to not rely on pure faith over reason, that these are all aspects of self-grasping that probably one needs to go beyond. Not abandon, but get past them, go beyond them, because they are also still just the props of this “reality”. That’s the paradox: we need all of our ducks in a row in order to logically ascertain that there really aren’t any ducks.
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Re: Is samsara meant literal or not

Post by yinyangkoi »

I don't even understand how there can be different realms in the first place. I thought these distinctions are all made in the mind, and in truth it's all one and the same consciousness or whatever you want to label it as. All there is for me is not knowingness
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Re: Is samsara meant literal or not

Post by yinyangkoi »

PadmaVonSamba wrote: Wed Jul 21, 2021 1:37 pm … then, after that is all sorted out, go back and consider that the whole need for things to “make sense”, for a square to always have four sides and four corners, and to not rely on pure faith over reason, that these are all aspects of self-grasping that probably one needs to go beyond. Not abandon, but get past them, go beyond them, because they are also still just the props of this “reality”. That’s the paradox: we need all of our ducks in a row in order to logically ascertain that there really aren’t any ducks.
I just can't blindly trust this if there is no way to find out if it's true. If the buddha knew, there must be a way to gain the insight. So far I only see that samsara is the cyclical arising and ceasing of emotions, like lust (animal realm), pleasure (deva), pain (hellish realm), frustration (hungry ghost). And as far as I understand it, a buddha is not affected by those, since he is awake and not controlled by those emotions (or has none at all). Also a buddha is awake from the dream of existence, so he has transcended death. I just can't see how there are realms in a literal sense, or how to find out if there are. But the buddha apparently knew, so how do I gain this insight?
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Re: Is samsara meant literal or not

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yinyangkoi wrote: Wed Jul 21, 2021 8:08 am
seeker242 wrote: Wed Jul 21, 2021 5:29 am "Stuck in samsara" means literal, continuous birth and death in various realms of rebirth. Like this one we are in now, the human realm. It's not just a metaphor, it's just as real as this human life and body is. If you make bad karma, you could be reborn as a dog, just like the neighbors dog down the street, literally.
Alright but how do you gain this insight? How can I know for myself. I don't want to believe something blindly
The Buddha gained this insight for himself by doing a whole boatload of meditation practice. It would make sense for us to do what he did, if we want to know what he knew. :smile: Of course Buddhism is more than just doing meditation but that’s a huge part of how to gain insight.

:meditate:
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