If we can. In meditation. Everybody. Many meditators saw the heavens. In fact, it is said that Buddha "ascended" to heaven to teach the devas (in meditation) And the ideal would be to die in those states to be reborn thereyinyangkoi wrote: ↑Sat Jul 31, 2021 9:54 amBut there is no way to know for sure these kingdoms are real... We can only speculate and believe on blind faith. Of course it's possible, but there is no way to knowKova wrote: ↑Sat Jul 31, 2021 2:10 am In my humble opinion I find no contradiction in thinking that they are both states of mind and real kingdoms at the same time. If i die in angry state of mind i rebirth in hell. And if i die happy i rebirth in kingdom of devas. They are at the same time states of mind and real kingdoms
Is samsara meant literal or not
Re: Is samsara meant literal or not
- PadmaVonSamba
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Re: Is samsara meant literal or not
What matters isn’t whether you or I think god realms are real, or hell realms, or hungry ghost realms.
What matters is that those beings think they are real. It is actually their experience, as projections of their own minds, exactly in the same way that our experience is a projection of our own minds
If this is understood, then there is no difference between “are they real places” and “are they metaphors for human psychology”.
You have to examine your own criteria for what determines that something is a realm, or a place of some kind. What constitutes “place”? You need to figure that out first, before you can decide whether a realm is a place that is “real”.
You have to establish, when discussing samsaric realms, what is the difference between literal and metaphorical.
So, do that first.
What matters is that those beings think they are real. It is actually their experience, as projections of their own minds, exactly in the same way that our experience is a projection of our own minds
If this is understood, then there is no difference between “are they real places” and “are they metaphors for human psychology”.
You have to examine your own criteria for what determines that something is a realm, or a place of some kind. What constitutes “place”? You need to figure that out first, before you can decide whether a realm is a place that is “real”.
You have to establish, when discussing samsaric realms, what is the difference between literal and metaphorical.
So, do that first.
EMPTIFUL.
An inward outlook produces outward insight.
An inward outlook produces outward insight.
- Queen Elizabeth II
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Re: Is samsara meant literal or not
Not yet afaik, but I suppose it will if medical science ever advances to the point where every single part of your body can be replaced with a transplant.Supramundane wrote: ↑Fri Jul 30, 2021 7:00 am Are you familiar with the Ship of Theseus riddle? Does it apply to the human body?
- Queen Elizabeth II
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Re: Is samsara meant literal or not
The meanings of "same" and "different" will vary according to the conventions operating in different fields. If an ābhidharmika, for example, wants to claim that the rūpa dharmas that make up one's body exist only for a moment, then I'll happily concede that if that's true then we now have an entirely different body from the one we had a second ago.Johnny Dangerous wrote: ↑Fri Jul 30, 2021 7:31 am No, they aren't "the same", any more than an orange is "the same" orange three days later.
However, the statement to which I was replying was clearly made with biological conventions in mind, not the conventions of Abhidharma or chemistry or physics. And so I adhered to the same conventions in my reply. For a biologist the statement, "The lens in Fred's left eye is different from the one he had seven years ago" would only be true if Fred has had a lens transplant. If Fred hasn't had a lens transplant then from a biologist's point of view the lens will be the same lens, notwithstanding the fact that some of the matter that constituted it has been lost in that interval.
- Supramundane
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Re: Is samsara meant literal or not
No need for transplants or transhumanism if, as some here claim, our cells replace each other constantly.Queen Elizabeth II wrote: ↑Wed Aug 04, 2021 4:26 amNot yet afaik, but I suppose it will if medical science ever advances to the point where every single part of your body can be replaced with a transplant.Supramundane wrote: ↑Fri Jul 30, 2021 7:00 am Are you familiar with the Ship of Theseus riddle? Does it apply to the human body?
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Re: Is samsara meant literal or not
when the cell replicates there is a chance errors will happen, for example radiation from sun mutates the skins cell DNA and it replicates faulty. It's a complex topicSupramundane wrote: ↑Wed Aug 04, 2021 9:41 amNo need for transplants or transhumanism if, as some here claim, our cells replace each other constantly.Queen Elizabeth II wrote: ↑Wed Aug 04, 2021 4:26 amNot yet afaik, but I suppose it will if medical science ever advances to the point where every single part of your body can be replaced with a transplant.Supramundane wrote: ↑Fri Jul 30, 2021 7:00 am Are you familiar with the Ship of Theseus riddle? Does it apply to the human body?
- PadmaVonSamba
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Re: Is samsara meant literal or not
That’s true. Just because one cell is replaced by another doesn’t mean it’s the right type of cell. My lungs decided a couple of years ago to start replacing regular cells with scar tissue. Now I am waiting for a lung transplant.yinyangkoi wrote: ↑Wed Aug 04, 2021 12:43 pmwhen the cell replicates there is a chance errors will happen, for example radiation from sun mutates the skins cell DNA and it replicates faulty. It's a complex topicSupramundane wrote: ↑Wed Aug 04, 2021 9:41 amNo need for transplants or transhumanism if, as some here claim, our cells replace each other constantly.Queen Elizabeth II wrote: ↑Wed Aug 04, 2021 4:26 am
Not yet afaik, but I suppose it will if medical science ever advances to the point where every single part of your body can be replaced with a transplant.
Or rather, my body is waiting for a lung transplant.
“I” am exactly the same (constantly changing ) person I was.
EMPTIFUL.
An inward outlook produces outward insight.
An inward outlook produces outward insight.
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Re: Is samsara meant literal or not
I have found a zen center where I got a teacher who is now training me. She said samsara is something that depends on ones own karma, and it is completely different for everyone, she said one must experience it oneself to see what samsara is and how it works.