is buddhist an exclusivist religion?

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Budai
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Re: is buddhist an exclusivist religion?

Post by Budai »

PadmaVonSamba wrote: Tue May 18, 2021 7:17 pm Is Buddhism exclusivist ?
No Buddhist is ever going to demand that a person give up whatever else they believe in. But at some point, if they really delve deep enough into serious practice, the difference will manifest itself and that person may have to make some important personal life decisions about what they really do and don’t believe in.
I think this is the way Buddha approached things. You have a wise heart. :heart:
Soma999
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Re: is buddhist an exclusivist religion?

Post by Soma999 »

If you see Buddha as a person, dharma as a specific teaching and sangha as buddhist, it may be exclusive.

If you understand Buddha as clarity, Dharma as universal laws, and sangha as universal consciousness, it is inclusive.

If you follow different paths, you have to build bridges, not mixing things, but bridges. It is a challenge, but rewarding if done correctly.

You can make buddhism inclusive or exclusive. It depends on you.
Giovanni
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Re: is buddhist an exclusivist religion?

Post by Giovanni »

I see The Buddha as the Buddha. Dharma the teachings of the Buddhas rediscovered from age to age and Sangha the community of those who have taken Refuge. This not exclusive, this is just orthodox.
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Queequeg
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Re: is buddhist an exclusivist religion?

Post by Queequeg »

well said.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
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Malcolm
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Re: is buddhist an exclusivist religion?

Post by Malcolm »

Soma999 wrote: Wed May 19, 2021 9:44 pm If you understand Buddha as clarity, Dharma as universal laws, and sangha as universal consciousness, it is inclusive.
Which was said by the Buddha in no sutra or tantra anywhere, ever.
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Sunrise
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Re: is buddhist an exclusivist religion?

Post by Sunrise »

megaman chiquito wrote: Mon May 17, 2021 2:08 pm Is it possible to be both buddhist and other religion(islam,judaism,etc)? I once read a testimony by a jain nun who said some jains are also other religion.
do monks/buddhist teachers frown upon this? Can anyone chant sutras and mantras?
Yes, but probably one religious train of thought will be your dominant one. Also many religious events are cultural too. For example, many people celebrate Christmas (decorations, parties, carols) without actually being Christians. You might still want to observe what you grew up with, even though you've changed religions.
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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: is buddhist an exclusivist religion?

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

There are really two common approaches dharma.

One is simply as a set of guidelines for daily living. These are what you find in the coffee-table books featuring the Dalai Lama, or books on mindfulness by Thich Nhat Hanh. No refuge is required to abstain from the negative behaviors that result in negative life experiences. Anybody who follows any religion can apply these Dharma teachings, just as one can apply the sayings of Confucius, the aphorisms of Ben Franklin, or the teachings on forgiveness by Jesus.

The other approach to Dharma is really aimed at liberation from samsara, not just making it more manageable. There are specific concepts that must be understood and tested to the point that one can confidently accept them as valid. Here is where conflicts may arise between Buddhist teachings and those of other belief systems.
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Malcolm
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Re: is buddhist an exclusivist religion?

Post by Malcolm »

PadmaVonSamba wrote: Thu May 20, 2021 5:35 pm There are really two common approaches dharma.

One is simply as a set of guidelines for daily living. These are what you find in the coffee-table books featuring the Dalai Lama, or books on mindfulness by Thich Nhat Hanh. No refuge is required to abstain from the negative behaviors that result in negative life experiences. Anybody who follows any religion can apply these Dharma teachings, just as one can apply the sayings of Confucius, the aphorisms of Ben Franklin, or the teachings on forgiveness by Jesus.
In the Tibetan tradition this is called "mi chos," which corresponds more or less to our idea of secular ethics.
The other approach to Dharma is really aimed at liberation from samsara, not just making it more manageable. There are specific concepts that must be understood and tested to the point that one can confidently accept them as valid. Here is where conflicts may arise between Buddhist teachings and those of other belief systems.
In our tradition, this called "lha chos," "highest teachings," which refers to the Dharma proper.
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Re: is buddhist an exclusivist religion?

Post by SilenceMonkey »

Malcolm wrote: Thu May 20, 2021 6:06 pm
PadmaVonSamba wrote: Thu May 20, 2021 5:35 pm There are really two common approaches dharma.

One is simply as a set of guidelines for daily living. These are what you find in the coffee-table books featuring the Dalai Lama, or books on mindfulness by Thich Nhat Hanh. No refuge is required to abstain from the negative behaviors that result in negative life experiences. Anybody who follows any religion can apply these Dharma teachings, just as one can apply the sayings of Confucius, the aphorisms of Ben Franklin, or the teachings on forgiveness by Jesus.
In the Tibetan tradition this is called "mi chos," which corresponds more or less to our idea of secular ethics.
The other approach to Dharma is really aimed at liberation from samsara, not just making it more manageable. There are specific concepts that must be understood and tested to the point that one can confidently accept them as valid. Here is where conflicts may arise between Buddhist teachings and those of other belief systems.
In our tradition, this called "lha chos," "highest teachings," which refers to the Dharma proper.
Is this the same as lha dang mi’i theg pa? (The vehicles of gods and men) I was under the impression that these two vehicles were not yet at the level of even the shravakayana... where the divine vehicle was about attaining divine qualities and states, and ultimately divine rebirths, but not a release from samsara.

I’m curious where the reference to mi chos and lha chos are coming from.
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Re: is buddhist an exclusivist religion?

Post by Malcolm »

SilenceMonkey wrote: Thu May 20, 2021 7:02 pm

I’m curious where the reference to mi chos and lha chos are coming from.
These two terms are quite common in Tibetan literature.
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Re: is buddhist an exclusivist religion?

Post by Ikkyu's_Son »

PadmaVonSamba wrote: Thu May 20, 2021 5:35 pm There are really two common approaches dharma.

One is simply as a set of guidelines for daily living. These are what you find in the coffee-table books featuring the Dalai Lama, or books on mindfulness by Thich Nhat Hanh. No refuge is required to abstain from the negative behaviors that result in negative life experiences. Anybody who follows any religion can apply these Dharma teachings, just as one can apply the sayings of Confucius, the aphorisms of Ben Franklin, or the teachings on forgiveness by Jesus.

The other approach to Dharma is really aimed at liberation from samsara, not just making it more manageable. There are specific concepts that must be understood and tested to the point that one can confidently accept them as valid. Here is where conflicts may arise between Buddhist teachings and those of other belief systems.
I'm of the opinion that this is a really good perspective on things.

In my personal practice, I differentiate between worldly refuge with a little "r" and ultimate Refuge with a capital "R". A bit of relative and ultimate truths I suppose.

I see no source of tension or conflict with praying or propitiation of deities for worldly aims if one also considers themselves Buddhist, especially if said Buddhist realizes that these beings are not sources of ultimate Buddhahood/enlightenment.

As others have stated though, the further you wish to proceed in some religions, discrepancies may be found in the paths that make them incompatible and hard to ignore, but (on a personal note) I find when moving away from exoteric practice and into the more esoteric practices and beliefs of many religious systems, you actually a lot of common strands of experience and perhaps even what could be considered "same thing, different words to express it" going on. Also, the intertwining of Hindu and Buddhist practice is pretty fascinating, along with some of the other posts that have already mentioned the Japanese approach and intertwining of Buddhism.
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Re: is buddhist an exclusivist religion?

Post by Shotenzenjin »

It depends on the religion. Abrahamic monotheism would be allot more difficult to practice and still be a Buddhist then Shinto as an example
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Re: is buddhist an exclusivist religion?

Post by FiveSkandhas »

Shotenzenjin wrote: Sun Jun 06, 2021 4:18 pm It depends on the religion. Abrahamic monotheism would be allot more difficult to practice and still be a Buddhist then Shinto as an example
It's an interesting comparison. Actually while as you know, most Japanese freely "come and go" between Shinto and Buddhism, at the highest levels the sticklers still adhere to the Meiji seperation and consider them incompatible -- they keep it quiet, but in actual fact the Emperor of Japan is not allowed to have a Buddhist affiliation or take part in Buddhist events, etc. He and his family are pure Shinto.

In one of the Ksitigarbha Sutras, Shakyamuni Buddha says he has manifested as countless beings and even things like "pools of water" as upaya to save beings. Among the items in the long list are "Gods" and even "Brahmans" if I'm not mistaken. And if I recall he mentions "Gods" not only as Devas but uses a strange (to me) term in Chinese that translates something like "the highest lord of Heaven"...has a very monotheistic ring to it. To me this has been evidence that one could rope in an Abrahamic deity as a kind of manifestation of Shakyamuni using his Upaya.

Of course in this schema the Abrahamic religion would in an important way be subordinate to Buddhism, with the God being a manifestation of the Buddha, much like the Kami were generally considered under Shinbutsu-shugo. But I can see how it points towards a system where one could keep the cultural trappings and even liturgical aspects of an Abrahamic religion while also being Buddhist.
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megaman chiquito
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Re: is buddhist an exclusivist religion?

Post by megaman chiquito »

thanks for all the replies, I will read and analyze them!
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