is buddhist an exclusivist religion?
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is buddhist an exclusivist religion?
Is it possible to be both buddhist and other religion(islam,judaism,etc)? I once read a testimony by a jain nun who said some jains are also other religion.
do monks/buddhist teachers frown upon this? Can anyone chant sutras and mantras?
do monks/buddhist teachers frown upon this? Can anyone chant sutras and mantras?
- Supramundane
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Re: is buddhist an exclusivist religion?
I'm also a Narcissist. Not sure if that counts.
Re: is buddhist an exclusivist religion?
Not straight forward.
When you become a Buddhist formally you do a little ceremony called Taking Refuge..which means that you identify with The Buddha, his followers ( the Sangha) and his teachings (the Dharma) if you then take refuge in a God or in others teachers you are breaking your refuge.
This does not mean that we cannot learn from others teachers or traditions. But we cannot go to them for refuge.
When you become a Buddhist formally you do a little ceremony called Taking Refuge..which means that you identify with The Buddha, his followers ( the Sangha) and his teachings (the Dharma) if you then take refuge in a God or in others teachers you are breaking your refuge.
This does not mean that we cannot learn from others teachers or traditions. But we cannot go to them for refuge.
Re: is buddhist an exclusivist religion?
Depends on the teacher.
megaman chiquito wrote: ↑Mon May 17, 2021 2:08 pm Is it possible to be both buddhist and other religion(islam,judaism,etc)? I once read a testimony by a jain nun who said some jains are also other religion.
do monks/buddhist teachers frown upon this? Can anyone chant sutras and mantras?
"The world is made of stories, not atoms."
--- Muriel Rukeyser
--- Muriel Rukeyser
Re: is buddhist an exclusivist religion?
Anything is possible. If one is nominally following one path and another, going through the motions but not really engaging and applying the teachings, one could go from church to mosque to monastery to temple and feel like they are a paradigm of open-mindedness and multiculturalism. The problem is, I think very few people, if any, are so idealistically simple that they can remain at the surface levels of teachings they actively engage in and not be confronted with the dissonance that would come from even the shallowest attempts at integrating Buddhist and non-Buddhist paths. Conceivably, Mary could become an avatar of Avalokitesvara or Tara, but that is going to be confusing as heck except for really advanced magicians competent in expedients.megaman chiquito wrote: ↑Mon May 17, 2021 2:08 pm Is it possible to be both buddhist and other religion(islam,judaism,etc)? I once read a testimony by a jain nun who said some jains are also other religion.
do monks/buddhist teachers frown upon this? Can anyone chant sutras and mantras?
If you take Buddha dharma seriously, start practicing in earnest, I think one might find that the Four Noble Truths, Impermanence, Emptiness undermine other paths fatally. One might be able to construct for themselves an approach using a liberal view of dependent origination, but I can't imagine that being fun for very long - those intellectual gymnastics will get really tiresome.
Dalai Lama says to people, stick with your grandmother's religion. If you're a serious seeker, though, Grandma's dictums are just nice suggestions, maybe served with cookies and milk.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
Re: is buddhist an exclusivist religion?
While HHDL discourages "conversion," he also stated that if one really feels connected with Dharma, there is no problem at all in taking refuge, etc., because he recognizes there are many Westerners who have past life connections with the Dharma.
Re: is buddhist an exclusivist religion?
Yes. I just saw a talk with Bob Thurman and he commented on that and asking HHDL about his refuge.
I think that advice is in line with the long standing Buddhhist sensibility that the sangha should not impose on the community that hosts them. Its a bad look if the sons of householders are actively recruited, etc. The sangha got enough grief for just passively inspiring the sons of householders to abandon home and join the itinerant drop outs.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
Re: is buddhist an exclusivist religion?
Correct. We do not evangelize. Those Buddhists who think they should evangelize the Dharma are in error. We promote the Dharma through example, not through conversion and trying to convince people of something.Queequeg wrote: ↑Mon May 17, 2021 4:39 pmYes. I just saw a talk with Bob Thurman and he commented on that and asking HHDL about his refuge.
I think that advice is in line with the long standing Buddhhist sensibility that the sangha should not impose on the community that hosts them. Its a bad look if the sons of householders are actively recruited, etc. The sangha got enough grief for just passively inspiring the sons of householders to abandon home and join the itinerant drop outs.
- Johnny Dangerous
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Re: is buddhist an exclusivist religion?
Mostly the answer is yes. I don't know the context of the quote from the Jain nun, but the answer is mostly "yes" for other religions too. Religions are pretty much all mutually exclusive if one goes beyond the surface level. Plenty are exclusive even on the surface level.megaman chiquito wrote: ↑Mon May 17, 2021 2:08 pm Is it possible to be both buddhist and other religion(islam,judaism,etc)? I once read a testimony by a jain nun who said some jains are also other religion.
do monks/buddhist teachers frown upon this? Can anyone chant sutras and mantras?
That said, Buddhist meditation, ethics, etc. are open to anyone, and don't require someone to take refuge to be studied.
We only have so much time though.
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when afflicted by disease
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared
-Khunu Lama
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared
-Khunu Lama
Re: is buddhist an exclusivist religion?
WWBD.
I think the Buddha's conversation with Brahma after his enlightenment guides Buddhists on whether the Dharma should be shared openly or not: the Dharma should be shared openly. I think that is further modified by the account of Anathapindika's death bed conversation with Sariputra where Sariputra taught him the actual teachings for the first time (not just encouragement to cultivate the Brahma Viharas, generosity, etc.), prompting Anathapindika to ask that these teachings not be withheld from lay people.
The question is how far one can go in sharing - only passively? Or can one reach out to another to suggest a better way to live? There are mentions in the sutras of the benefit that accrues to a person who inspires another to go and listen to teachings, "Come, friend, let's go listen to this teacher."
Clearly, trying to get people to take refuge to notch the numbers is stupid and pointless.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
Re: is buddhist an exclusivist religion?
If people are interested, then we share what we know. If they are not interested, than we don't. It is that simple.Queequeg wrote: ↑Mon May 17, 2021 5:04 pmWWBD.
I think the Buddha's conversation with Brahma after his enlightenment guides Buddhists on whether the Dharma should be shared openly or not: the Dharma should be shared openly. I think that is further modified by the account of Anathapindika's death bed conversation with Sariputra where Sariputra taught him the actual teachings for the first time (not just encouragement to cultivate the Brahma Viharas, generosity, etc.), prompting Anathapindika to ask that these teachings not be withheld from lay people.
The question is how far one can go in sharing - only passively? Or can one reach out to another to suggest a better way to live? There are mentions in the sutras of the benefit that accrues to a person who inspires another to go and listen to teachings, "Come, friend, let's go listen to this teacher."
Clearly, trying to get people to take refuge to notch the numbers is stupid and pointless.
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Re: is buddhist an exclusivist religion?
It’s easier for a Buddhist to be an atheist
than it is for an atheist to be a Buddhist.
Vajrayana Buddhism takes everything as path. This doesn’t mean that Vajrayana Buddhists also follow other religions, but that everything can become your teacher.
Buddhism doesn’t demand that if someone feels a connection to a particular religion that they must sever that connection. But eventually an individual must decide what they believe and don’t believe. There are basic differences down the road. It really depends on how far along the road one goes. I think there are a lot of “casual Buddhists” who don’t even go there, don’t really even concern themselves with concepts such as emptiness or non-self, or the mental gymnastics springing from the Nalanda tradition centuries ago. That’s fine. There are many lifetimes to go through.
than it is for an atheist to be a Buddhist.
Vajrayana Buddhism takes everything as path. This doesn’t mean that Vajrayana Buddhists also follow other religions, but that everything can become your teacher.
Buddhism doesn’t demand that if someone feels a connection to a particular religion that they must sever that connection. But eventually an individual must decide what they believe and don’t believe. There are basic differences down the road. It really depends on how far along the road one goes. I think there are a lot of “casual Buddhists” who don’t even go there, don’t really even concern themselves with concepts such as emptiness or non-self, or the mental gymnastics springing from the Nalanda tradition centuries ago. That’s fine. There are many lifetimes to go through.
EMPTIFUL.
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An inward outlook produces outward insight.
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Re: is buddhist an exclusivist religion?
I think that a monk or nun will sometimes not hesitate to mention that there are teachings that seem to refer to this or that currently arising situation. If you are riding in a bus with a monk, and the bus breaks down, the monk might say, “just as the Buddha taught...” and that really wouldn’t be too unexpected.The question is how far one can go in sharing - only passively? Or can one reach out to another to suggest a better way to live? There are mentions in the sutras of the benefit that accrues to a person who inspires another to go and listen to teachings, "Come, friend, let's go listen to this teacher."
Hopefully a layperson wouldn’t announce some Buddhist analysis about everything that happens during the day.
EMPTIFUL.
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Re: is buddhist an exclusivist religion?
It is clearly possible for individuals to claim to follow multiple religions, including Buddhism, because people do so. However, it is only possible by skipping over the awkward contradictions. People are good at this.megaman chiquito wrote: ↑Mon May 17, 2021 2:08 pm Is it possible to be both buddhist and other religion(islam,judaism,etc)? I once read a testimony by a jain nun who said some jains are also other religion.
do monks/buddhist teachers frown upon this? Can anyone chant sutras and mantras?
One particular contradiction between the western religions (Christianity, Judaism, and Islam) and Buddhism is whether or not there is a creator. In Buddhism, the doctrine of conditioned co-production means that any conditioned phenomenon was created by other conditioned phenomena. They could not have been created by a creator god, because such an entity would have to exist without cause. In Christianity and the other western religions, God inherently exists without any cause. This is not possible in Buddhism.
The fact that there is such a clear contradiction in doctrine apparently does not stop people from claiming to believe both at the same time. How they resolve the contradiction is something you need to ask them. Most likely, they just sweep it under the rug.
Oom mani padme hum
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Re: is buddhist an exclusivist religion?
About 60 million Japanese people identify as "both Shinto and Buddhist." They have been doing so in one form or another for almost 1500 years.
It's rather dismissive to say they aren't "real" Buddhists.
Shakyamuni Buddha also states in one of the Ksitigarbha Sutras (and probably elsewhere) that he has appeared as numerous things to reach sentient beings, from "pools of water" to "Gods" and "Brahmins" (I think this last one is included in the list). Perhaps in some cases, phenomena of other religions are upaya of the Buddha...
It's rather dismissive to say they aren't "real" Buddhists.
Shakyamuni Buddha also states in one of the Ksitigarbha Sutras (and probably elsewhere) that he has appeared as numerous things to reach sentient beings, from "pools of water" to "Gods" and "Brahmins" (I think this last one is included in the list). Perhaps in some cases, phenomena of other religions are upaya of the Buddha...
"One should cultivate contemplation in one’s foibles. The foibles are like fish, and contemplation is like fishing hooks. If there are no fish, then the fishing hooks have no use. The bigger the fish is, the better the result we will get. As long as the fishing hooks keep at it, all foibles will eventually be contained and controlled at will." -Zhiyi
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- PadmaVonSamba
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Re: is buddhist an exclusivist religion?
That’s a valid point, and the same can be said of many Nepalese who regard themselves as both Buddhist and Hindu, or Chinese who practice Buddhism as well as Taoism.FiveSkandhas wrote: ↑Tue May 18, 2021 7:07 am About 60 million Japanese people identify as "both Shinto and Buddhist." They have been doing so in one form or another for almost 1500 years.
It's rather dismissive to say they aren't "real" Buddhists.
I think the key word here, however, is practice. As one friend said to me, “in living, we are tao, but when we get close to dying, we are Buddhists”.
While that’s also a good point, that’s coming from the Buddha side, not the believer side. A Buddha appearing as fresh water in the desert may save someone’s life, but all the person wants is a drink. In other words, it’s not a question of a person holding two belief systems simultaneously.Shakyamuni Buddha also states in one of the Ksitigarbha Sutras (and probably elsewhere) that he has appeared as numerous things to reach sentient beings, from "pools of water" to "Gods" and "Brahmins" (I think this last one is included in the list). Perhaps in some cases, phenomena of other religions are upaya of the Buddha...
A Buddha appearing in the desert, handing a thirsty person a glass of water...
...that might make someone be purely a Buddhist.
EMPTIFUL.
An inward outlook produces outward insight.
An inward outlook produces outward insight.
Re: is buddhist an exclusivist religion?
The issue is refuge. Do many Japanese people take refuge in Shinto deities like Amaterasu-no-kami? Some do, but they are not Buddhists.FiveSkandhas wrote: ↑Tue May 18, 2021 7:07 am About 60 million Japanese people identify as "both Shinto and Buddhist." They have been doing so in one form or another for almost 1500 years.
It's rather dismissive to say they aren't "real" Buddhists.
Shakyamuni Buddha also states in one of the Ksitigarbha Sutras (and probably elsewhere) that he has appeared as numerous things to reach sentient beings, from "pools of water" to "Gods" and "Brahmins" (I think this last one is included in the list). Perhaps in some cases, phenomena of other religions are upaya of the Buddha...
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Re: is buddhist an exclusivist religion?
With respect, Malcolm, I think that's a false equivalence.Malcolm wrote: ↑Tue May 18, 2021 11:51 amThe issue is refuge. Do many Japanese people take refuge in Shinto deities like Amaterasu-no-kami? Some do, but they are not Buddhists.FiveSkandhas wrote: ↑Tue May 18, 2021 7:07 am About 60 million Japanese people identify as "both Shinto and Buddhist." They have been doing so in one form or another for almost 1500 years.
It's rather dismissive to say they aren't "real" Buddhists.
Shakyamuni Buddha also states in one of the Ksitigarbha Sutras (and probably elsewhere) that he has appeared as numerous things to reach sentient beings, from "pools of water" to "Gods" and "Brahmins" (I think this last one is included in the list). Perhaps in some cases, phenomena of other religions are upaya of the Buddha...
As far as I know, no-one "takes refuge" in Shinto (or Hindu) deities. They worship them, pray to them, make offerings to them.
And on the other hand, Buddhists "taking refuge" are essentially saying that they have chosen to trust the Buddha's teaching, not to worship the Buddha as a deity - although I know the distinction is rarely clear in daily life.
If that is the case, there is far less conflict between taking refuge in the Three Jewels and worshipping Amaterasu or Shiva than there would be between worshipping Shiva and worshipping Amaterasu.
Or Yahweh and Odin, etc, etc.
Kim
Re: is buddhist an exclusivist religion?
By the definition used in all Buddhist schools, if you ask a deity or ancestor for aid to achieve, or for protection, you are taking Refuge with them.
Malcolm is quite right.
Malcolm is quite right.
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Re: is buddhist an exclusivist religion?
“Refuge” is just a term.Kim O'Hara wrote: ↑Tue May 18, 2021 1:00 pm As far as I know, no-one "takes refuge" in Shinto (or Hindu) deities. They worship them, pray to them, make offerings to them.
And on the other hand, Buddhists "taking refuge" are essentially saying that they have chosen to trust the Buddha's teaching, not to worship the Buddha as a deity - although I know the distinction is rarely clear in daily life.
Buddhism asserts that all beings are striving to be free from desire. In other words, to be content. Happy, fed, free, loved, not being eaten, prosperous, whatever. That discontent is called samsara, isn’t it? To be content is a universal goal of all beings.
Whatever you use to reach that goal, religion, politics, brute force, that’s your refuge. It’s what you put your confidence in.
Yes, you can pray to Virgin Mary for new shoes and pray to Buddha for money and good looks. You can turn to any source of refuge for whatever you want. When I want money, I take refuge in the ATM.
But the perfection of liberation from craving, the perfection of that contentment free from samsara, that’s specifically (but not exclusively) a buddhist goal.
Last edited by PadmaVonSamba on Tue May 18, 2021 3:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
EMPTIFUL.
An inward outlook produces outward insight.
An inward outlook produces outward insight.