In what sense is the brain and consciousness not just biochemicals

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Queequeg
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Re: In what sense is the brain and consciousness not just biochemicals

Post by Queequeg »

PadmaVonSamba wrote: Thu Feb 11, 2021 3:35 pm In the Surangama Sutra, the Buddha points out to Ananda that if Ananda covers his eyes so they can’t function, can’t “see”, how does he know he can’t see? There is still visual awareness or visual consciousness, thus, the experience of various sense consciousnesses do not rely on the functioning of the sense organs themselves. From this, it can be at least theorized that consciousness does not rely completely on the functioning of the physical body, although I think it can be argued that a functioning brain may still be required for some experience of awareness to occur, if only in a reflective sense.
Do you have a citation for that part of the Surangama? Just curious to see the context.

Here's a stab at an analysis of that - Technically, if there is no contact between the visual object and eyes, there is no eye consciousness. Ananda knows he can't see because he notes, in mind consciousness, the absence of eye consciousness impinging on mind consciousness. That is itself a function of mind consciousness - mind consciousness takes as its object both consciousness of the 5 sense organs as well as the previous instances of mind consciousness.

We can theorize all sorts of possibilities for the relation of consciousness and matter. Many of those theories will depend on how we define the various parts - matter and consciousness, in the least. Depending on how they are defined, we'll get different theories. Through ordinary observation we can't really know, both us Buddhists and those Materialists. Buddhists rely on the Buddha to inform our views on those matters that lie beyond our ordinary perceptions.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
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Re: In what sense is the brain and consciousness not just biochemicals

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

Queequeg wrote: Thu Feb 11, 2021 4:28 pmDo you have a citation for that part of the Surangama? Just curious to see the context.
It’s pretty close to the beginning, after the Buddha discusses the location of the mind, then the nature of visual awareness.

Here’s a link to one version of it:

http://www.cttbusa.org/shurangama2/shurangama2.asp.html
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Re: In what sense is the brain and consciousness not just biochemicals

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:twothumbsup: Thanks.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
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Re: In what sense is the brain and consciousness not just biochemicals

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I'm not sure they're talking about a congenitally blind person.

I used to know a very gifted blind trumpet player. He was blind from birth. A mutual friend recounted how they went to visit them at their home. It was night time. The first thing that struck him was that when the guy answered the door, there were no lights on in the apartment.
LOL
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
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Re: In what sense is the brain and consciousness not just biochemicals

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Is there eye consciousness in a dream? Contact?
Queequeg wrote: Thu Feb 11, 2021 4:28 pm Here's a stab at an analysis of that - Technically, if there is no contact between the visual object and eyes, there is no eye consciousness. Ananda knows he can't see because he notes, in mind consciousness, the absence of eye consciousness impinging on mind consciousness. That is itself a function of mind consciousness - mind consciousness takes as its object both consciousness of the 5 sense organs as well as the previous instances of mind consciousness.
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Re: In what sense is the brain and consciousness not just biochemicals

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Matt J wrote: Thu Feb 11, 2021 6:20 pm Is there eye consciousness in a dream? Contact?
Queequeg wrote: Thu Feb 11, 2021 4:28 pm Here's a stab at an analysis of that - Technically, if there is no contact between the visual object and eyes, there is no eye consciousness. Ananda knows he can't see because he notes, in mind consciousness, the absence of eye consciousness impinging on mind consciousness. That is itself a function of mind consciousness - mind consciousness takes as its object both consciousness of the 5 sense organs as well as the previous instances of mind consciousness.
I'm not sure what the Abhidharma/Abhidhamma answer to that would be. I'm curious myself.

My guess is that there is only dreamed contact between the dreamed object and the dreamed eye. Really, its all within the mental consciousness.

According to google, congenitally blind people do no have a visual component to their dreaming, while people who had sight and lost it do dream visually.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
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Re: In what sense is the brain and consciousness not just biochemicals

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Matt J wrote: Thu Feb 11, 2021 6:20 pm Is there eye consciousness in a dream? Contact?
Queequeg wrote: Thu Feb 11, 2021 4:28 pm Here's a stab at an analysis of that - Technically, if there is no contact between the visual object and eyes, there is no eye consciousness. Ananda knows he can't see because he notes, in mind consciousness, the absence of eye consciousness impinging on mind consciousness. That is itself a function of mind consciousness - mind consciousness takes as its object both consciousness of the 5 sense organs as well as the previous instances of mind consciousness.
No, but there is contact by the manodhātu of an object in the dharmadhātu resulting dream perceptions. So, there is no eye consciousness in a dream, there is however, contact.
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Re: In what sense is the brain and consciousness not just biochemicals

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Queequeg wrote: Thu Feb 11, 2021 8:29 pmMy guess is that there is only dreamed contact between the dreamed object and the dreamed eye. Really, its all within the mental consciousness.
in the Surangama Sutra, the Buddha explains that the mental consciousness has become sort of divided up among the senses.
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Re: In what sense is the brain and consciousness not just biochemicals

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Malcolm wrote: Thu Feb 11, 2021 8:38 pm dharmadhātu resulting dream perceptions.
can you explain that?
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
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Re: In what sense is the brain and consciousness not just biochemicals

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Queequeg wrote: Thu Feb 11, 2021 9:53 pm
Malcolm wrote: Thu Feb 11, 2021 8:38 pm dharmadhātu resulting dream perceptions.
can you explain that?
Sure, the dharmadhātu is the object of the manodhātu, when these two things meet, it produces the manovijñānadhātu.

So, mental factors are part of the dharmadhātu, dream experiences are basically, distorted memories. Memories are mental factors.
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Re: In what sense is the brain and consciousness not just biochemicals

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Malcolm wrote: Thu Feb 11, 2021 11:04 pm
Queequeg wrote: Thu Feb 11, 2021 9:53 pm
Malcolm wrote: Thu Feb 11, 2021 8:38 pm dharmadhātu resulting dream perceptions.
can you explain that?
Sure, the dharmadhātu is the object of the manodhātu, when these two things meet, it produces the manovijñānadhātu.

So, mental factors are part of the dharmadhātu, dream experiences are basically, distorted memories. Memories are mental factors.
Got it. Thank you.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
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Re: In what sense is the brain and consciousness not just biochemicals

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Malcolm wrote: Thu Feb 11, 2021 11:04 pm Sure, the dharmadhātu is the object of the manodhātu, when these two things meet, it produces the manovijñānadhātu.

So, mental factors are part of the dharmadhātu, dream experiences are basically, distorted memories. Memories are mental factors.
I'll confess I am unfamiliar with those terms, but your second sentence is very interesting to me. I'm curious, as someone whose mother is currently dying from a prion disease, how the erosion of the brain and resulting dementia correspond: i.e., does their experience fall in the category of distorted mental factors?
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Re: In what sense is the brain and consciousness not just biochemicals

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The teachings say that when looked for,
The mind cannot be found to reside
either inside or outside of the body.

Yet, at the time of death,
consciousness is also said to leave the body,
(and preferably through the top of the head).
That would suggest that the mind is located in the body.

These two appear to contradict each other.
Can you resolve it?
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Re: In what sense is the brain and consciousness not just biochemicals

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PadmaVonSamba wrote: Fri Feb 12, 2021 2:00 pm The teachings say that when looked for,
The mind cannot be found to reside
either inside or outside of the body.

Yet, at the time of death,
consciousness is also said to leave the body,
(and preferably through the top of the head).
That would suggest that the mind is located in the body.

These two appear to contradict each other.
Can you resolve it?
The first is a ultimate analysis, the second is a conventional description. For example, a car cannot be found to reside in its parts or outside its parts, etc.
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Re: In what sense is the brain and consciousness not just biochemicals

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Malcolm wrote: Fri Feb 12, 2021 2:09 pm
PadmaVonSamba wrote: Fri Feb 12, 2021 2:00 pm The teachings say that when looked for,
The mind cannot be found to reside
either inside or outside of the body.

Yet, at the time of death,
consciousness is also said to leave the body,
(and preferably through the top of the head).
That would suggest that the mind is located in the body.

These two appear to contradict each other.
Can you resolve it?
The first is a ultimate analysis, the second is a conventional description. For example, a car cannot be found to reside in its parts or outside its parts, etc.
So then, the mind is merely, let’s say, “ending its association” with the body. But then, why would some texts suggest it matters through which orifice the consciousness “leaves” the body?
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Re: In what sense is the brain and consciousness not just biochemicals

Post by Malcolm »

PadmaVonSamba wrote: Fri Feb 12, 2021 3:06 pm
Malcolm wrote: Fri Feb 12, 2021 2:09 pm
PadmaVonSamba wrote: Fri Feb 12, 2021 2:00 pm The teachings say that when looked for,
The mind cannot be found to reside
either inside or outside of the body.

Yet, at the time of death,
consciousness is also said to leave the body,
(and preferably through the top of the head).
That would suggest that the mind is located in the body.

These two appear to contradict each other.
Can you resolve it?
The first is a ultimate analysis, the second is a conventional description. For example, a car cannot be found to reside in its parts or outside its parts, etc.
So then, the mind is merely, let’s say, “ending its association” with the body. But then, why would some texts suggest it matters through which orifice the consciousness “leaves” the body?
Its a karmic sign of where one will take rebirth. Again, just a conventional description.
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Re: In what sense is the brain and consciousness not just biochemicals

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n8pee wrote: Fri Feb 12, 2021 2:56 am
Malcolm wrote: Thu Feb 11, 2021 11:04 pm Sure, the dharmadhātu is the object of the manodhātu, when these two things meet, it produces the manovijñānadhātu.

So, mental factors are part of the dharmadhātu, dream experiences are basically, distorted memories. Memories are mental factors.
I'll confess I am unfamiliar with those terms, but your second sentence is very interesting to me. I'm curious, as someone whose mother is currently dying from a prion disease, how the erosion of the brain and resulting dementia correspond: i.e., does their experience fall in the category of distorted mental factors?
The first problem we have to address is that in the Buddhist conception, the mental organ does not correspond to the brain. Very simply, they did not have the information we have now about brain function.

Much of what we associate with brain function corresponds to the manovijnana - mental consciousness. This would be everything from awareness of colors and shapes, sounds, smells, tastes, tactile sensations, up to concepts, ideas, notions, beliefs, and memories.

In yogacara some of the functions we associate with the brain are associated with the manasvijnana. This is basically the notion of the self and includes all the subtle ways in which this notion is insinuated in all other thoughts.

At a subtler level is the alayavijnana. This is where our habitual predispositions are found, in the Buddhist view the ground of our fundamental ignorance. Without getting too deep, this is where the impulse to be can be found. It determines the birth we take, the form of our bodies, our biases and inclinations, etc. that express as the being we are.

Just to round this out, it needs to be kept in mind these descriptions are aids to meditation practice, not necessarily models to perform surgery or things like that. The point is to show the meditator where they need to do work toward liberation.

But to you question, with the deteriorating condition of your mother's brain, this is impacting the mano and Manas vijnanas. It's not that mental factors are distorted - they're defined in such an elemental manner that they're immune to distortion. The deterioration of the brain is limiting the expression of mental factors.

For instance, a person without eyes is not suffering distorted vision. There simply is no vision. Similarly if the mental organ lacks capacity to form memories, for instance it's simply an absence of those factors not a distortion.

That may need correction. Defer to Malcolm.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
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Re: In what sense is the brain and consciousness not just biochemicals

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PadmaVonSamba wrote: Fri Feb 12, 2021 3:06 pm
Malcolm wrote: Fri Feb 12, 2021 2:09 pm
PadmaVonSamba wrote: Fri Feb 12, 2021 2:00 pm The teachings say that when looked for,
The mind cannot be found to reside
either inside or outside of the body.

Yet, at the time of death,
consciousness is also said to leave the body,
(and preferably through the top of the head).
That would suggest that the mind is located in the body.

These two appear to contradict each other.
Can you resolve it?
The first is a ultimate analysis, the second is a conventional description. For example, a car cannot be found to reside in its parts or outside its parts, etc.
So then, the mind is merely, let’s say, “ending its association” with the body. But then, why would some texts suggest it matters through which orifice the consciousness “leaves” the body?
Perhaps it's really about maintaining comfort in the body to promote a peaceful dissolution.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
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Re: In what sense is the brain and consciousness not just biochemicals

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Queequeg wrote: Fri Feb 12, 2021 4:54 pm
The first problem we have to address is that in the Buddhist conception, the mental organ does not correspond to the brain. Very simply, they did not have the information we have now about brain function.

Much of what we associate with brain function corresponds to the manovijnana - mental consciousness. This would be everything from awareness of colors and shapes, sounds, smells, tastes, tactile sensations, up to concepts, ideas, notions, beliefs, and memories.

In yogacara some of the functions we associate with the brain are associated with the manasvijnana. This is basically the notion of the self and includes all the subtle ways in which this notion is insinuated in all other thoughts.

At a subtler level is the alayavijnana. This is where our habitual predispositions are found, in the Buddhist view the ground of our fundamental ignorance. Without getting too deep, this is where the impulse to be can be found. It determines the birth we take, the form of our bodies, our biases and inclinations, etc. that express as the being we are.

Just to round this out, it needs to be kept in mind these descriptions are aids to meditation practice, not necessarily models to perform surgery or things like that. The point is to show the meditator where they need to do work toward liberation.

But to you question, with the deteriorating condition of your mother's brain, this is impacting the mano and Manas vijnanas. It's not that mental factors are distorted - they're defined in such an elemental manner that they're immune to distortion. The deterioration of the brain is limiting the expression of mental factors.

For instance, a person without eyes is not suffering distorted vision. There simply is no vision. Similarly if the mental organ lacks capacity to form memories, for instance it's simply an absence of those factors not a distortion.

That may need correction. Defer to Malcolm.
spitballing

it would be interesting to see how much correspondence there is between the 8 consciousnesses and the parts of the brain. For instance, the awareness of the five consciousnesses might be associated with more primitive parts of the brain, while manasvijnana, the 7th consciousness and aspects of higer order thinking of the manovijnana might be located in the frontal cortex. Alayavijnana might be at more basic levels like our genes and form.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
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Re: In what sense is the brain and consciousness not just biochemicals

Post by avisitor »

The physical body and the mind are related
This can be proven by how brain disease destroys the brain and the mind of the person loses memories
It can also be shown simply by taking an alcoholic drink.
The alcohol affects the body and the mind.
However, consciousness is not the same thing as mind.

The brain is the physical and so it is biochemical.
Consciousness is much like the "Ghost in the Machine"
Call it soul or spirit or whatever.
It is like the splash of the water
Each drop is split from the whole
Flight and travels it own path, soars
Then falls back into the ocean of water

Sorry, just ranting. Excuse the mess.
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