Desire and Improving life circumstances

[MagnetSoulSP]

Something that bugged me when it comes to desire and in my own life.

I live at home with my folks and the only job I can afford is fast food. I don't make nearly enough to support myself and I do yearn for a place of my own. Yet Buddhism says that grasping and wanting is cause for suffering, but at present not wanting something different from my current situation is not sustainable. Is it fine to want a "better life" (so to speak) or should I learn to let go of such desires.

[Johnny Dangerous]

Something that bugged me when it comes to desire and in my own life.

I live at home with my folks and the only job I can afford is fast food. I don't make nearly enough to support myself and I do yearn for a place of my own. Yet Buddhism says that grasping and wanting is cause for suffering, but at present not wanting something different from my current situation is not sustainable. Is it fine to want a "better life" (so to speak) or should I learn to let go of such desires.

This is really a partial understanding, or even a misunderstanding of what Buddhism teaches. It is fine to want this and that, the thing is to be aware of the fact that no matter what our situation is, we tend to be somewhat dissatisfied with it. This is because we naturally take refuge in things like temporary situations, which cannot lead to the sort of happiness we believe they can. It's a pattern we repeat, over and over. It doesn't mean the things we want are bad, more money is better than being poor. It's normal to feel that way, and is a good thing to try building a life based on the things you value.

It doesn't mean you shouldn't try for things in life that you believe will improve your general situation, it just means that when you cannot, it is skillful to learn to let them go, and to realize that your grasping after situations is not helpful, and is a cause of dissatisfaction.

Just pause and ask yourself how often your mind plays the trick of "once I have this, everything will be great", then once you have it, somehow it is not quite as amazing or final as you thought it would be.

A clear example here is that if you have not yet lived on your own or been financially independent, you will find that doing so opens up not only a new sense of freedom and autonomy, but also a new burden of added responsibility and stress. It will be better in some ways, but right now perhaps you feel there will be some sense of finality or substance to the change, and I predict there will not.

In this situation the issue is not with not wanting to move out, but with the fact that right now you cannot move out, and it is making you unhappy.

[Redfaery]

I don't think it's "wrong" to want to move out of your parent's house and get a better paying job. It is realistic to say however, that even if you do get a good job and your own house, it still won't be "enough". The nature of Samsara is that anything mundane we strive for is never actually enough for us.

And I should say that I too live with my parents, and currently work a low paying job. It's not bad to want better in life. Just be realistic about how much it will actually satisfy you.

[FiveSkandhas]

RIGHT ASPIRATION

The second element of the Eightfold path is samma sankappa. Sometimes this is translated as ‘Right Thought’, thinking in the right way. However, it actually has more of a dynamic quality - like ‘intention’, ‘attitude’ or ‘aspiration’. I like to use ‘aspiration’ which is somehow very meaningful in this Eightfold Path - because we do aspire.

It is important to see that aspiration is not desire. The Pali word ‘tanha’ means desire that comes out of ignorance, whereas ‘sankappa’ means aspiration not coming from ignorance. Aspiration might seem like a kind of desire to us because in English we use the word ‘desire’ for everything of that nature - either aspiring or wanting. You might think that aspiration is a kind of tanha, wanting to become enlightened (bhava tanha) - but samma sankappa comes from Right Understanding, seeing clearly...

More:
http://www.buddhanet.net/4noble23.htm

[PadmaVonSamba]

The answers given are good.
I’m just curious about what you meant by
“job I can afford”.

[MagnetSoulSP]

The answers given are good.
I’m just curious about what you meant by
“job I can afford”.

Well right now it’s what bited for me. My current degree is general studies which I really can’t do much with. I understand that being on my own isn’t magic but I also know that my current situation is not sustainable and if I don’t take steps to move out and get a better paying job then I’ll end up like my uncle who lives with my grandmother because he never took the certification for becoming a doctor in the US and can’t live in the appartment he now lives in without the financial aid of my grandmother.

In short this is more me realizing I have to grow up and be able to take care of myself rather than have my folks do everything. But for a while I felt bad about wanting that (like 10 years) because when I first picked up Buddhism it said desire was bad.

[Johnny Dangerous]

Well right now it’s what bited for me. My current degree is general studies which I really can’t do much with. I understand that being on my own isn’t magic but I also know that my current situation is not sustainable and if I don’t take steps to move out and get a better paying job then I’ll end up like my uncle who lives with my grandmother because he never took the certification for becoming a doctor in the US and can’t live in the appartment he now lives in without the financial aid of my grandmother.

That just sounds like a guess informed by a sense of fatalism. At least in the US, It is much more common for people to need to live with their parents for protracted lengths of time because of changes in the economy in the last 10 or 15 years....chances are that trend is going to continue. So, in many places it's harder than it used to be for people to become financially independent of their families. In some places it was always hard.

In short this is more me realizing I have to grow up and be able to take care of myself rather than have my folks do everything. But for a while I felt bad about wanting that (like 10 years) because when I first picked up Buddhism it said desire was bad.

It doesn't say "desire is bad" exactly, that's such a superficial reading of the Second Noble Truth that it is essentially wrong. Have you ever read Eight Mindful Steps To Happiness? It's by a Theravadin monk, it does one of the best jobs I've seen of explaining what basic Buddhist concepts mean in everyday life. You might want to read this or a similar book, trying to apply an idea like "desire is bad" or "wanting things is bad" in daily life is bound to lead to nothing but neuroticism, if you want to apply the teachings to situations like this it's a good plan to get a deeper understanding of them, there are a number of concepts in Buddhism that are very easy to misinterpret and to create obstacles around.

[FiveSkandhas]

Johnny Dangerous's post is well worth considering.

Like the OP, I struggled with the "problem of desire" for a long time, a struggle born out of superficial readings and limited, pre-internet sources that were simplistic and often lacking in context. I also mixed up Taoistic ideas based on "Wu Wei" with Buddhism: A disaster that took years to unlearn.

As a rule of thumb, I think now less in terms of "desire" and more in terms of craving versus aspiration. "Craving" has a selfish, flighty, attachment-oriented quality, while there are all sorts of noble "aspirations": the aspiration to help others, to achieve spiritual progress, to make merit, and to improve oneself. The aspiration to seek a less desperate life situation need not be seen as a craving for wealth, but rather as an attempt to secure a life that will allow you to pursue the Dharma in a more stable manner and to be in a position to be generous to others.

[PadmaVonSamba]

Interestingly enough, the need to move out of the parent’s house is something that only really became an issue after WW2, as the United States shifted more towards industrialization, the sprawling of new suburbs, and new highways.
In Chinese culture, and many others, living with the parents is not regarded as a negative thing. In many cases. Just the opposite. And if things get too crowded, the family looks for a bigger house.

I was confused by the term, “only job I can afford” because ‘affording’ something usually means you are paying to acquire it.
I’m sure you could afford a better paying job, no?

[Johnny Dangerous]

Interestingly enough, the need to move out of the parent’s house is something that only really became an issue after WW2, as the United States shifted more towards industrialization, the sprawling of new suburbs, and new highways.
In Chinese culture, and many others, living with the parents is not regarded as a negative thing. In many cases. Just the opposite. And if things get too crowded, the family looks for a bigger house.

I was confused by the term, “only job I can afford” because ‘affording’ something usually means you are paying to acquire it.
I’m sure you could afford a better paying job, no?

Yes, I think this is a cultural difference worth keeping in mind. I used to work with a number of Vietnamese guys in their early 20's who lived with their parents. Even with them growing up partially in American culture, it seemed very standard for families to live closely together, and (I think) something of an expectation that once your parents cannot care for themselves or need significant help, you will be living with them, or they with you.

Definitely the value of moving away from your parents in order to "live your own life" is pretty new. I also assume (though don't know for sure) that the US has it's own particular flavor of this idea, cut from a kind of doctrinal individualism.

[MagnetSoulSP]

Interestingly enough, the need to move out of the parent’s house is something that only really became an issue after WW2, as the United States shifted more towards industrialization, the sprawling of new suburbs, and new highways.
In Chinese culture, and many others, living with the parents is not regarded as a negative thing. In many cases. Just the opposite. And if things get too crowded, the family looks for a bigger house.

I was confused by the term, “only job I can afford” because ‘affording’ something usually means you are paying to acquire it.
I’m sure you could afford a better paying job, no?

Yes, I think this is a cultural difference worth keeping in mind. I used to work with a number of Vietnamese guys in their early 20's who lived with their parents. Even with them growing up partially in American culture, it seemed very standard for families to live closely together, and (I think) something of an expectation that once your parents cannot care for themselves or need significant help, you will be living with them, or they with you.

Definitely the value of moving away from your parents in order to "live your own life" is pretty new. I also assume (though don't know for sure) that the US has it's own particular flavor of this idea, cut from a kind of doctrinal individualism.

I don't know. Living on your own seems to be a thing after a certain age. I come from a hispanic culture and after a certain age living with parents is regarded as negative, not to mention how stunted people can be as a result.

Regardless it is important for me to have my own place and own life. I've seen how negatively it can affect someone to be living with their parents (yes even in cultures where it is normalized).

[anagarika]

Is it fine to want a "better life" (so to speak) or should I learn to let go of such desires?

Of course it is fine as long as you have a clear idea about why you want it. Solid livelihood can be conducive for your practice. By solid I don´t necessarily mean the best paying job, for me it´s more about the effort/money ratio. I only recently realised how lucky I am to be a freelancer who is not bothered by a typical 9-5 office job. It is great if you can find a job that does not consume all your time and still provides enough money. Also living alone opens up better possibilities for sitting practice (more privacy, less distractions, ...). I find that aligning career with dharma practice is one of the biggest challenges for ous householders (anagarikas-to-be, hopefully ).

[Johnny Dangerous]

I don't know. Living on your own seems to be a thing after a certain age. I come from a hispanic culture and after a certain age living with parents is regarded as negative, not to mention how stunted people can be as a result.

Do you know the Eight Worldly Dharmas? Here you go:

Original Sutta:
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

Another teaching:
https://studybuddhism.com/en/tibetan-bu ... n-illusion

And another:

https://lhagsam.ch/event/the-eight-worl ... 020-11-03/

Regardless it is important for me to have my own place and own life. I've seen how negatively it can affect someone to be living with their parents (yes even in cultures where it is normalized).

I get it. There are always practical matters to be attended to in life. The best you can do is to really try to live by earnest values, instead of the Eight Worldly Concerns. Right now, it sounds like those Eight Worldly Concerns are at least partially involved in your dissatisfaction around living with your parents. That kind of dissatisfaction is endless. As the Suttas says, the worlds spins after these concerns and they spin after the world.

If you are always making decisions based on your attachment to those concerns, the result is always more dissatisfaction, it can't go any other way.

So Buddhism in daily life is about getting as free as we can of that kind of thinking, of that pattern. It's not about not making plans, or not taking actions when they are beneficial.

So you can decide what to do here based on higher principles, compassion for oneself and others, general benefit of moving out or not, as well as consideration of your financial situation. You don't have to focus on the fact that a decision will involve difficulty (pain or pleasure) that people might think of you a certain way (fame/infamy), you will lose some things and gain others (gain/loss), or whether people with think you are right or wrong (praise/blame). The things are everywhere in life and are largely meaningless, living even a little outside their grasp is real freedom.

These concerns are how we make decision by default, and they truly lead nowhere but back to themselves. So the point is not to avoid doing anything, the point is to actually live according to altruistic values, looking for the greatest benefit, the best situation given the circumstances - rather than these preoccupations.

[MagnetSoulSP]

That sounds an awful lot like depression to me.

I mean not being happy when things go well or sad when they don't sounds like me right now, where I don't feel much about anything. I doubt that's a healthy way of living. It also sounds like one becomes no different from a corpse if everything is all the same then. And if everything is meaningless then isn't that just nihilism? Then why would I bother doing anything at all if it's "all the same"? I'm struggling to see how that is advice to follow.

I'm somewhat reminded of Eckhart Tolle who talks about similar things but the man has (and continues to) make lots of money and doesn't have to worry about anything worldly or where to live or eat.

I also can't help but feel that earnest values are somewhat motivated in part by such worldly concerns or things. There is a moral debate on whether true altruism actually exists, and part of it as I recall was on the notion of doing good. Even if the praise for doing it does not come from others we in some form or another praise ourselves for following the "right path". But then what exactly is the "right path" because there are definitely many different definitions an interpretations of what is the best decision or what is for the good of all. I mean some (well a small few) think the extinction of the human race is better for all because that means one doesn't have to worry about future pain or creating systems to care for others or to drag out a life that is ultimately meaningless. To them everyone is being done a favor because by not living anymore they don't have to worry about joy or pain, gain or loss, and it's a quicker route that Buddhism. To them that is moral and virtuous and compassionate. So I have to raise an eyebrow whenever I hear earnest values and altruism because such things can vary from person to person or even culture. What was virtue in the past is considered horrible today (and I feel like there was a Buddhist writing about there ultimately not being any virtuous actions but it was a long time ago and I'm iffy on it).

TLDR: It's hard to define what is "best" or "beneficial" as these are purely subjective.

But that's slightly off topic. To me it is important to live on my own because for much of my life it felt like I was living someone else's life. I mean the only reason I "love" my parents is because they pay for things to shelter me, I have no real choice but to play the part. I've stopped loving them years ago because it was compulsory. I was usually guilted into giving them hugs and kisses when I didn't want to and doing things just because "it's family". I hated it eventually, but I sucked it up for a while because I can't afford to otherwise. I began to see the wisdom in sayings like "the blood of the covenant is thicker than the water of the womb", whereby if you have to force someone to give affection then what does that say about your relationship (not to mention all the damaging dynamics I learned about relationships from being at home). It's only when I spend time away from them that the harmful patterns we are in dissipate and I feel like an adult and can handle myself (and I usually can). I hear the words being said about how this won't be the end, and likely that is the case. But it reminds me of when people saying money can't buy happiness. That's true but it beats starving on the street. Though in this case I feel like (and based on some experience that I won't go too into) moving out would be of great benefit to me. I need to get used to messing up and not having someone to catch me, even admitting that I am at fault as well. I still find myself looking for someone to blame when things go wrong or for someone to catch me, it's a bad habit.

I'd rather not go on because this could take pages but I think I made my point.

[Johnny Dangerous]

That sounds an awful lot like depression to me.

Then I would submit you should probably learn more about Buddhism if you want to know how it handles this sort of issue. What things "sound like" tends to be based primarily on prior experience and exposure. if your exposure to Buddhism is minimal or you have not really immersed yourself, with respect you don't actually have much reference point, you know how it "sounds" based on current knowledge.

I mean not being happy when things go well or sad when they don't sounds like me right now, where I don't feel much about anything. I doubt that's a healthy way of living. It also sounds like one becomes no different from a corpse if everything is all the same then. And if everything is meaningless then isn't that just nihilism? Then why would I bother doing anything at all if it's "all the same"? I'm struggling to see how that is advice to follow.

It's not about not being happy or sad, but not pinning all your expectations for contentment on what is constantly in flux (happiness or sadness based on temporary situations). As an example Viktor Frankl saw his family perish on the concentration camps and experienced suffering beyond what most of us can imagine. Despite this, he managed to help people and live a fulfilling life, as well as make a positive contribution to society. Many Tibetan Lamas and other Buddhist teachers have similarly experienced some terrible things, yet are quite joyful and selfless in how they live their lives. this shows that dissatisfaction is about your relationship to your mind, not simply about external circumstances. The stoics put it that virtue itself is a sufficient condition for happiness, Buddhism agrees.

If you want a modern Pyschological take divorced from Buddhism, look at Acceptance And Commitment therapy, the gist of it is that we try to live our lives according to our values and step out of our preoccupation with our dissatisfaction surrounding events, and with our "cognitive fusion" - our tendency to identify with thoughts and emotions as if they define us.

I'm somewhat reminded of Eckhart Tolle who talks about similar things but the man has (and continues to) make lots of money and doesn't have to worry about anything worldly or where to live or eat.

I also can't help but feel that earnest values are somewhat motivated in part by such worldly concerns or things. There is a moral debate on whether true altruism actually exists, and part of it as I recall was on the notion of doing good. Even if the praise for doing it does not come from others we in some form or another praise ourselves for following the "right path". But then what exactly is the "right path" because there are definitely many different definitions an interpretations of what is the best decision or what is for the good of all. I mean some (well a small few) think the extinction of the human race is better for all because that means one doesn't have to worry about future pain or creating systems to care for others or to drag out a life that is ultimately meaningless. To them everyone is being done a favor because by not living anymore they don't have to worry about joy or pain, gain or loss, and it's a quicker route that Buddhism. To them that is moral and virtuous and compassionate. So I have to raise an eyebrow whenever I hear earnest values and altruism because such things can vary from person to person or even culture. What was virtue in the past is considered horrible today (and I feel like there was a Buddhist writing about there ultimately not being any virtuous actions but it was a long time ago and I'm iffy on it).

There is no debate within Buddhism about whether altruism relatively exists or is important, though there is outside of it. There is also nothing wrong with making a living in Buddhism, and in fact there is specific advice on how to do so ethically. So, the Tolle thing is neither here nor there. Firstly he is not a Buddhist teacher, second, none of this stuff is advice to give up everything and be a nihilist. I am not sure how much more plainly anyone can put that.

TLDR: It's hard to define what is "best" or "beneficial" as these are purely subjective.

The experience of phenomena itself is completely subjective, no two people experience anything the same way...so how could it be otherwise? Of course they are subjective, that is the point - you work with subjective circumstances to reason the greatest benefit to oneself and others. If you do not share the values of Buddhism, then you would have to use a different set of values to reason with. Nonetheless, even outside of Buddhism, when human beings reason about ethics, they tend to come to agreement on some common things - at least theoretically- murder is bad, caring for others is good, truthfulness is in some sense desirable etc. If you want to endlessly nitpick about whether that's true, you can, people certainly engage in that. I think it's a waste of time personally, and I consider a basic set of human values to be pretty self-evident, whether we adhere to them or not is whole other huge question. Buddhism would argue that often we don't or cannot, precisely due to the very thing we are talking about - we are trapped in a cycle of our own making, and our view of how things actually are is obscured.

That's true but it beats starving on the street. Though in this case I feel like (and based on some experience that I won't go too into) moving out would be of great benefit to me. I need to get used to messing up and not having someone to catch me, even admitting that I am at fault as well. I still find myself looking for someone to blame when things go wrong or for someone to catch me, it's a bad habit.

I'd rather not go on because this could take pages but I think I made my point.

Then move out when you can. It sounds like you believe it is of the most benefit to yourself and others, so Buddhism would say you should do that if you can, full stop.

You seem to be under the impression that Buddhism says to do nothing when you feel it would benefit you to do something, Buddhist teachings do not say that. if this seems contradictory to you I submit it simply because you maintain some fundamentally incorrect ideas about what Buddhism teaches. They are really common misconceptions, which is why I recommended Eight Mindful Steps To Happiness as it pretty well lays out how these things function in daily life.

That doesn't mean Buddhism is for you of course, but it is possible you do not really understand the concept of tanha - clinging and are associating teachings on it with simply being robotic or ignoring emotions, which is both impossible and likely destructive.

it's a very common mistake because most people learn about the function of the mind from a (somewhat outdated) western pop-psychological notion of what emotions are, and how they function. We have threads about it regularly and the only real way to gain a fuller understanding of an alternate view is to expose yourself to new ideas, or simply decide it is not for you. Hope that makes sense.

If you would like further reading that's more in depth, read up on the difference between tanha and chanda. Here's some links to get started:

https://www.tbcm.org.my/desire-ta%E1%B9 ... us-chanda/

http://www.chinabuddhismencyclopedia.co ... %87h%C4%81

[MagnetSoulSP]

I guess in my head from what I read it sounded like I had to throw away everything or I wouldn’t be happy