Does true omnipotence exist?

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Artziebetter1
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Does true omnipotence exist?

Post by Artziebetter1 »

I’m not talking about siddhis,but the ability for anything to happen in reality that one wishes for.in shaivism (I am only mentioning this because they are the only religion that claims this is possible for human beings and deities)this is the Kalpataru Shaktih and is a possible side effect of opening the Ajna chakra through Shaktipada or diksha-empowerment by a Enlightened guru.

If this were possible for Buddhas would they save all beings instantly or stop their suffering.?

Shaivite yogis claim this power is possible for them and one Shaivite acarya who is quiet famous makes the claim he has this power and that he created the coronavirus through this .as a way to forcibly make humans stop their violence and materialism and evil lifestyle(he predicts that by dec 14 the coronavirus will get super bad and he predicted something like this would happen three years ago).Im not going to mention with acharya this is as the media is against him and made some Discreted claims against him that if believed Could detract from his message that this power is possible for all beings.

I guess I can’t know until my Anya is awakened but I’m wondering how Buddhism sees this .
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Re: Does true omnipotence exist?

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No, no one is outside the realm of cause and effect except Buddhas, and they can't 'reach in' to samsara and alter it for sentient beings experiencing it. There's blessings and purifications, which are said to do things like make Karmic fruits ripen less severely (I've read that in places at least), but "potency" in this case is Karmic reality, which is not even fully shared, much less controlled by a single cause, person, deity, etc.
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when afflicted by disease

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared

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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: Does true omnipotence exist?

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

“If this were possible for Buddhas would they save all beings instantly or stop their suffering?”

If it were possible, yes.
But it is not possible. This has nothing to do with the capabilities of a Buddha (or anyone), because the source of both suffering and happiness is within the mind of beings themselves.
This is the point of the Buddha’s teachings, and is precisely why it is taught that seeking permanent happiness from things which are impermanent, and looking for peace of mind in sources that are external (rather than the mind itself) only leads to more suffering eventually.
It’s like asking sunlight to penetrate a shadow. As blazingly bright as the Sun is, it will not illuminate something locked inside a dark box.
Only when the box is opened, can the light get in.
Likewise, as powerful and wise as a Buddha is, unless a person opens up to the Dharma teachings, they won’t benefit in the least.
EMPTIFUL.
An inward outlook produces outward insight.
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Budai
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Re: Does true omnipotence exist?

Post by Budai »

Become a Buddha and figure out if you are Omnipotent. :twothumbsup:
Artziebetter1
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Re: Does true omnipotence exist?

Post by Artziebetter1 »

Johnny Dangerous wrote: Thu Nov 26, 2020 2:09 am No, no one is outside the realm of cause and effect except Buddhas, and they can't 'reach in' to samsara and alter it for sentient beings experiencing it. There's blessings and purifications, which are said to do things like make Karmic fruits ripen less severely (I've read that in places at least), but "potency" in this case is Karmic reality, which is not even fully shared, much less controlled by a single cause, person, deity, etc.
Thank you.how do mantras work?they bring a desired happening merely by chanting?
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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: Does true omnipotence exist?

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

Artziebetter1 wrote: Thu Nov 26, 2020 4:33 am
Johnny Dangerous wrote: Thu Nov 26, 2020 2:09 am No, no one is outside the realm of cause and effect except Buddhas, and they can't 'reach in' to samsara and alter it for sentient beings experiencing it. There's blessings and purifications, which are said to do things like make Karmic fruits ripen less severely (I've read that in places at least), but "potency" in this case is Karmic reality, which is not even fully shared, much less controlled by a single cause, person, deity, etc.
Thank you.how do mantras work?they bring a desired happening merely by chanting?
If someone recites mantras with some hope of attainment,
and they feel some result has occurred,
They will answer “yes” to that question.

The function of mantra is to focus the mind.
When the mind is clear and focused,
It’s like a sidewalk cleared of snow and ice,
The path is wide open.
EMPTIFUL.
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Re: Does true omnipotence exist?

Post by Supramundane »

Johnny Dangerous wrote: Thu Nov 26, 2020 2:09 am No, no one is outside the realm of cause and effect except Buddhas, and they can't 'reach in' to samsara and alter it for sentient beings experiencing it. There's blessings and purifications, which are said to do things like make Karmic fruits ripen less severely (I've read that in places at least), but "potency" in this case is Karmic reality, which is not even fully shared, much less controlled by a single cause, person, deity, etc.
Wasn't there a famous koan about the subject of being beyond cause and effect regarding an Abbott of a monastery and a fox? He gave the wrong answer to this question and was doomed to live the life of a fox for 500 lifetimes. Everyone on Dharmawheel, thus, be very careful when you address this question:)

I wonder if anyone knows which koan I'm speaking about. It is one of the strangest koans I've ever heard. It is almost like a western fairy tale.

I'm a bit confused though: I thought that there was no cause and effect in buddhism. Cause and effect are two sides of the same coin, symbolized by the lotus. Cause and effect is not dependent origination. So I would answer that no one is beyond cause and effect, but cause and effect itself is perhaps a misapprehension.
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Re: Does true omnipotence exist?

Post by kirtu »

Supramundane wrote: Fri Nov 27, 2020 2:43 pm
Johnny Dangerous wrote: Thu Nov 26, 2020 2:09 am No, no one is outside the realm of cause and effect except Buddhas, and they can't 'reach in' to samsara and alter it for sentient beings experiencing it. There's blessings and purifications, which are said to do things like make Karmic fruits ripen less severely (I've read that in places at least), but "potency" in this case is Karmic reality, which is not even fully shared, much less controlled by a single cause, person, deity, etc.
Wasn't there a famous koan about the subject of being beyond cause and effect regarding an Abbott of a monastery and a fox? He gave the wrong answer to this question and was doomed to live the life of a fox for 500 lifetimes. Everyone on Dharmawheel, thus, be very careful when you address this question:)

I wonder if anyone knows which koan I'm speaking about. It is one of the strangest koans I've ever heard. It is almost like a western fairy tale.
Yes indeed. And if you think that one was strange ... interesting that you think of it as a western fairy tale. It's origin is China and the Chinese definitely created lots of authentic fairy tales. It's just this one is real (even if it might not have happened historically).

Pai Chang's Fox
Wild Fox Koan
Hyakujo's Fox
The old man replied: `I am not a human being, but I was a human being when the Kashapa Buddha preached in this world. I was a Zen master and lived on this mountain. At that time one of my students asked me whether the enlightened man is subject to the law of causation. I answered him: "The enlightened man is not subject to the law of causation." For this answer evidencing a clinging to absoluteness I became a fox for five hundred rebirths, and I am still a fox. Will you save me from this condition with your Zen words and let me get out of a fox's body? Now may I ask you: Is the enlightened man subject to the law of causation?'

Hyakujo said: `The enlightened man is one with the law of causation.'

At the words of Hyakujo the old man was enlightened. `I am emancipated,' he said, paying homage with a deep bow. `I am no more a fox, but I have to leave my body in my dwelling place behind this mountain. Please perform my funeral as a monk.' The he disappeared.
The fox as a Zen master wasn't a fully enlightened Buddha. That he had some degree of enlightenment is a given and he was teaching.

The point of the koan is that no one is outside cause and effect (karma - so karma is technically just the cause that later gives rise to the karma as a force and that ripens later as a result). Nonetheless there actually are people who think they are no longer subject to cause and effect (one or two became Buddhist teachers in the recent past in a couple of infamous cases).

Technically Buddhas are also not outside cause and effect. But they no longer produce impure causes based on ignorance at all so they are in a sense beyond cause and effect (they have eliminated ignorance so impure effects cannot arise). But as a teacher emphasized - if a 10th Bhumi Bodhisattva killed someone then s/he would definitely produce karma (this is a thought experiment since it can't happen). Even the Indian sage Padmasambhava, a person most Tibetan Buddhist regard as a Buddha, said that while his view was as high as the sky his behavior was finer than flour (so he was saying he was super careful about his actions of body, speech and mind).
I'm a bit confused though: I thought that there was no cause and effect in buddhism. Cause and effect are two sides of the same coin, symbolized by the lotus. Cause and effect is not dependent origination. So I would answer that no one is beyond cause and effect, but cause and effect itself is perhaps a misapprehension.
In the relative world there is definitely cause and effect. My Zen teachers always said that cause and effect were the same thing (they would agree that cause and effect are two sides of a coin).

From ignorance as a cause we ignorant, blind one's create actions <<formations>> of body, voice and mind (steps 1 <<avidya>> and 2 <<samskara> of the 12 links of dependent origination). These actions <<formations>> later lead to impure results in the relative world.

There are no permanent causes or effects since every produced thing is impermanent.

Kirt
“Where do atomic bombs come from?”
Zen Master Seung Sahn said, “That’s simple. Atomic bombs come from the mind that likes this and doesn’t like that.”

"Even if you practice only for an hour a day with faith and inspiration, good qualities will steadily increase. Regular practice makes it easy to transform your mind. From seeing only relative truth, you will eventually reach a profound certainty in the meaning of absolute truth."
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.

"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche
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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: Does true omnipotence exist?

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

Supramundane wrote: Fri Nov 27, 2020 2:43 pm
Johnny Dangerous wrote: Thu Nov 26, 2020 2:09 am No, no one is outside the realm of cause and effect except Buddhas, and they can't 'reach in' to samsara and alter it for sentient beings experiencing it. There's blessings and purifications, which are said to do things like make Karmic fruits ripen less severely (I've read that in places at least), but "potency" in this case is Karmic reality, which is not even fully shared, much less controlled by a single cause, person, deity, etc.
Wasn't there a famous koan about the subject of being beyond cause and effect regarding an Abbott of a monastery and a fox? He gave the wrong answer to this question and was doomed to live the life of a fox for 500 lifetimes. Everyone on Dharmawheel, thus, be very careful when you address this question:)

I wonder if anyone knows which koan I'm speaking about. It is one of the strangest koans I've ever heard. It is almost like a western fairy tale.

I'm a bit confused though: I thought that there was no cause and effect in buddhism. Cause and effect are two sides of the same coin, symbolized by the lotus. Cause and effect is not dependent origination. So I would answer that no one is beyond cause and effect, but cause and effect itself is perhaps a misapprehension.
If there was no cause and effect,
When you hit the SUBMIT button,
Your comment wouldn’t have posted to this forum.
:rolling:
Cause and effect are, in a way, the very essence of samsaric existence. So, just as the events in a dream are experienced as real within the dream, karma really occurs in samsara. But just as dreams are seen to have been illusions upon awakening, likewise, with awakening comes the liberation from the illusive quality of cause-and -effect.
EMPTIFUL.
An inward outlook produces outward insight.
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Re: Does true omnipotence exist?

Post by Supramundane »

kirtu wrote: Fri Nov 27, 2020 4:11 pm
Supramundane wrote: Fri Nov 27, 2020 2:43 pm
Johnny Dangerous wrote: Thu Nov 26, 2020 2:09 am No, no one is outside the realm of cause and effect except Buddhas, and they can't 'reach in' to samsara and alter it for sentient beings experiencing it. There's blessings and purifications, which are said to do things like make Karmic fruits ripen less severely (I've read that in places at least), but "potency" in this case is Karmic reality, which is not even fully shared, much less controlled by a single cause, person, deity, etc.
Wasn't there a famous koan about the subject of being beyond cause and effect regarding an Abbott of a monastery and a fox? He gave the wrong answer to this question and was doomed to live the life of a fox for 500 lifetimes. Everyone on Dharmawheel, thus, be very careful when you address this question:)

I wonder if anyone knows which koan I'm speaking about. It is one of the strangest koans I've ever heard. It is almost like a western fairy tale.
Yes indeed. And if you think that one was strange ... interesting that you think of it as a western fairy tale. It's origin is China and the Chinese definitely created lots of authentic fairy tales. It's just this one is real (even if it might not have happened historically).

Pai Chang's Fox
Wild Fox Koan
Hyakujo's Fox
The old man replied: `I am not a human being, but I was a human being when the Kashapa Buddha preached in this world. I was a Zen master and lived on this mountain. At that time one of my students asked me whether the enlightened man is subject to the law of causation. I answered him: "The enlightened man is not subject to the law of causation." For this answer evidencing a clinging to absoluteness I became a fox for five hundred rebirths, and I am still a fox. Will you save me from this condition with your Zen words and let me get out of a fox's body? Now may I ask you: Is the enlightened man subject to the law of causation?'

Hyakujo said: `The enlightened man is one with the law of causation.'

At the words of Hyakujo the old man was enlightened. `I am emancipated,' he said, paying homage with a deep bow. `I am no more a fox, but I have to leave my body in my dwelling place behind this mountain. Please perform my funeral as a monk.' The he disappeared.
The fox as a Zen master wasn't a fully enlightened Buddha. That he had some degree of enlightenment is a given and he was teaching.

The point of the koan is that no one is outside cause and effect (karma - so karma is technically just the cause that later gives rise to the karma as a force and that ripens later as a result). Nonetheless there actually are people who think they are no longer subject to cause and effect (one or two became Buddhist teachers in the recent past in a couple of infamous cases).

Technically Buddhas are also not outside cause and effect. But they no longer produce impure causes based on ignorance at all so they are in a sense beyond cause and effect (they have eliminated ignorance so impure effects cannot arise). But as a teacher emphasized - if a 10th Bhumi Bodhisattva killed someone then s/he would definitely produce karma (this is a thought experiment since it can't happen). Even the Indian sage Padmasambhava, a person most Tibetan Buddhist regard as a Buddha, said that while his view was as high as the sky his behavior was finer than flour (so he was saying he was super careful about his actions of body, speech and mind).
I'm a bit confused though: I thought that there was no cause and effect in buddhism. Cause and effect are two sides of the same coin, symbolized by the lotus. Cause and effect is not dependent origination. So I would answer that no one is beyond cause and effect, but cause and effect itself is perhaps a misapprehension.
In the relative world there is definitely cause and effect. My Zen teachers always said that cause and effect were the same thing (they would agree that cause and effect are two sides of a coin).

From ignorance as a cause we ignorant, blind one's create actions <<formations>> of body, voice and mind (steps 1 <<avidya>> and 2 <<samskara> of the 12 links of dependent origination). These actions <<formations>> later lead to impure results in the relative world.

There are no permanent causes or effects since every produced thing is impermanent.

Kirt
thank you, kirt. In fact, what is very interesting about this koan is that, although the incorrect answer was a negative (he initially denied cause and effect for a buddha), the correct answer was not a positive. Instead it was: "one cannot disregard cause and effect".

A middle way answer:).

Nicheren buddhism insists very much upon the simultaneity of cause and efdect, based on the heart sutra, symbolized by the lotus, which is flower and the seed develop at the same time. Very poetic.

(I used a coin to demonstrate this; I guess i am more monetary)

Therefore, no one is omnipotent if omnipotence means being beyond cause and effect.
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Re: Does true omnipotence exist?

Post by Supramundane »

PadmaVonSamba wrote: Fri Nov 27, 2020 6:10 pm
Supramundane wrote: Fri Nov 27, 2020 2:43 pm
Johnny Dangerous wrote: Thu Nov 26, 2020 2:09 am No, no one is outside the realm of cause and effect except Buddhas, and they can't 'reach in' to samsara and alter it for sentient beings experiencing it. There's blessings and purifications, which are said to do things like make Karmic fruits ripen less severely (I've read that in places at least), but "potency" in this case is Karmic reality, which is not even fully shared, much less controlled by a single cause, person, deity, etc.
Wasn't there a famous koan about the subject of being beyond cause and effect regarding an Abbott of a monastery and a fox? He gave the wrong answer to this question and was doomed to live the life of a fox for 500 lifetimes. Everyone on Dharmawheel, thus, be very careful when you address this question:)

I wonder if anyone knows which koan I'm speaking about. It is one of the strangest koans I've ever heard. It is almost like a western fairy tale.

I'm a bit confused though: I thought that there was no cause and effect in buddhism. Cause and effect are two sides of the same coin, symbolized by the lotus. Cause and effect is not dependent origination. So I would answer that no one is beyond cause and effect, but cause and effect itself is perhaps a misapprehension.
If there was no cause and effect,
When you hit the SUBMIT button,
Your comment wouldn’t have posted to this forum.
:rolling:
Cause and effect are, in a way, the very essence of samsaric existence. So, just as the events in a dream are experienced as real within the dream, karma really occurs in samsara. But just as dreams are seen to have been illusions upon awakening, likewise, with awakening comes the liberation from the illusive quality of cause-and -effect.
Interesting. Perhaps it can be explained by Nagarjuna's two truths: although cause and effect definitely exist, ultimately, they are empty because all things are impermanent?
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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: Does true omnipotence exist?

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

Supramundane wrote: Sat Nov 28, 2020 1:09 amPerhaps it can be explained by Nagarjuna's two truths: although cause and effect definitely exist, ultimately, they are empty because all things are impermanent?
Yes, sort of.
One thing is, you have to be careful about saying
“All things are impermanent” because as soon as you refer to things , you are imagining some moment of static reality to whatever object you are talking about.
It sounds like a small point to fuss over, but it is actually very important in terms of understanding the whole picture. It’s better (more accurate) to say that, “nothing impermanent can be regarded as a (truly existent) thing.
I think it’s also better to say that cause and effect definitely occur (rather than “exist”) whether in dreams, or while awake, or even in the bardo state between death and rebirth. This way, we can confirm that karma functions, even though inherently existing phenomena are not required.
Karma really is a term that applies to imprints on the mind. But we can use any cause-and-effect example as a model, such as an apple suddenly falling from a tree, to examine the context of co-dependent arising and interconnectedness:
We say “apple” and “tree” as though each is a unitary entity, a thing. Yet we also know that the apple is undergoing constant change, as is the tree. If we look at the apple as a morphing bunch of cells, or even as a swirling mass of atoms (and same for the tree), we cannot pinpoint an exact moment of direct cause and effect where the apple suddenly falls from the tree. We have to include wind and sunlight and all sorts of factors. We can’t make a simple “A” causes “B” statement, because there are just too many damned letters involved. That’s sort of what we might call Nagarjuna’s “ultimate truth”, or the assertion that there’s really no karma occurring. But, this is also where we reject karma as being some kind of power of the universe that punishes and rewards (a very common misconception).

At the same time, in our actual experience, all we see is the apple falling from the tree. We see things . So for us, karma definitely occurs, and we definitely. experience it. This is the relative truth. This is why the Buddha taught referring to objects as “things” and spoke of examining oneself, even though the point is, there is no self.

Bringing it back to the topic of omnipotence, this is, again, why omnipotence isn’t likely to occur. It’s precise because there are no truly existent things , that no being can have power over all things. One might make the seemingly logical argument that since we can and do control many types of things, therefore it is possible to control everything.
In fact, if you really examine the situation, even though, relatively, we control all sorts of things, money, dogs, moving cars, etc., ultimately we cannot control anything!
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Re: Does true omnipotence exist?

Post by Supramundane »

yes, I totally agree with your concept of karma, PV. I too reject the notion that it is a simplistic reward or punishment system as some people make it out to be, even though it is sometimes explained as such. I believe such a conception is simply 'skillful means' in order to elucidate something much more complicated. karma is a result of the interconnected-dependent-originating paradigm that we live in.

thus, I also agree with your conclusion that there can be no omnipotence in an absolute sense. However, we might be able to speak of a 'limited omnipotence', as oxymoronic as it may seem. Although we cannot know all things for the very pertinent reasons you have given, we could know that all things are essentially empty, and thus we would have 'omnipotent knowledge on an ultimate level'.
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Re: Does true omnipotence exist?

Post by kirtu »

Artziebetter1 wrote: Thu Nov 26, 2020 12:40 am I’m not talking about siddhis,but the ability for anything to happen in reality that one wishes for.
No. All phenomena arise from causes and conditions and are constrained by physical processes.

The extent to which siddhi phenomena are factual is controversial (people flying or swimming through earth have not been observed outside of medieval texts for example).

Esotericists claim that magic exists. However this is also constrained. People who go down this path could end up as demons.

Artziebetter1 wrote: Thu Nov 26, 2020 12:40 am If this were possible for Buddhas would they save all beings instantly or stop their suffering.?
If it were possible for Buddhas to do so they would have already done it.
Artziebetter1 wrote: Thu Nov 26, 2020 12:40 am Shaivite yogis claim this power is possible for them and one Shaivite acarya who is quiet famous makes the claim he has this power and that he created the coronavirus through this .as a way to forcibly make humans stop their violence and materialism and evil lifestyle(he predicts that by dec 14 the coronavirus will get super bad and he predicted something like this would happen three years ago).
Even if true this is not omnipotence.

Also the coronavirus has not stopped violence, materialism or an "evil lifestyle". It hasn't stopped wars and in some violent places (the USA for example) types of violence have increased!

Every relative phenomena is impermanent and arises from causes and conditions. There are no exceptions.

Kirt
“Where do atomic bombs come from?”
Zen Master Seung Sahn said, “That’s simple. Atomic bombs come from the mind that likes this and doesn’t like that.”

"Even if you practice only for an hour a day with faith and inspiration, good qualities will steadily increase. Regular practice makes it easy to transform your mind. From seeing only relative truth, you will eventually reach a profound certainty in the meaning of absolute truth."
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.

"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche
Artziebetter1
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Re: Does true omnipotence exist?

Post by Artziebetter1 »

Supramundane wrote: Sat Nov 28, 2020 10:32 am yes, I totally agree with your concept of karma, PV. I too reject the notion that it is a simplistic reward or punishment system as some people make it out to be, even though it is sometimes explained as such. I believe such a conception is simply 'skillful means' in order to elucidate something much more complicated. karma is a result of the interconnected-dependent-originating paradigm that we live in.

thus, I also agree with your conclusion that there can be no omnipotence in an absolute sense. However, we might be able to speak of a 'limited omnipotence', as oxymoronic as it may seem. Although we cannot know all things for the very pertinent reasons you have given, we could know that all things are essentially empty, and thus we would have 'omnipotent knowledge on an ultimate level'.
Can someone create something out of nothing ?like say manifesting something that hasn’t existed before?or would that go against causality ?
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Re: Does true omnipotence exist?

Post by Supramundane »

Interesting question! The first answer that comes to mind is that it is impossible. According to Buddhist precepts, especially codependent arising and dependent origination, everything we see is the result of something else and exists only in a compound structure with other things.

Thus, something arising from nothing would seem to be, on the face of it, an impossibility. Further, some might say that there is no such thing as nothing. Although the abstract idea exists in mathematics, the zero, in reality, what we have found is that in the phenomenological world there is nowhere that we can point to which is 'nothing'.

Even so-called empty space is not empty. It is full of what one might call quantum foam. Therefore the sort of magic you are speaking of, conjuring something out of nothing, would appear to be an impossibility.

Can you give me an example of what you're thinking of?
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