What is the exact correlation between Nirvana and Buddhahood?

[Budai]

I understand that true extinction is Buddhahood. Can one reach Nirvana without attaining Buddhahood fully? What are the different Teachings on this? Can Bodhisattvas enter Nirvana without being Buddhas? Is there anyone in Nirvana who is not a Buddha? At what levels?

Thank you.

Brahma.

[PadmaVonSamba]

I understand that true extinction is Buddhahood. Can one reach Nirvana without attaining Buddhahood fully? What are the different Teachings on this? Can Bodhisattvas enter Nirvana without being Buddhas? Is there anyone in Nirvana who is not a Buddha? At what levels?

Thank you.

Brahma.

There may be other ways to define these terms, but My understanding is that nirvana is, as you say, “extinction”. But, extinction of what?
Nirvana is basically the extinction of everything that obscures realization of buddhahood.
In other words, nirvana is the complete and perfect extinction of every type of grasping at a “self”. It is a point at which no more karma is being generated, hence, no more rebirth in samsara. It is also a point at which all previous karma has been played out, or resolved, meaning that there is no residue from the past.
That which is no longer obscured is termed “buddhahood”.
But what is it that is no longer obscured?
Complete and perfect unlimited awareness, omniscience, and so on.

[Budai]

In the Lotus Sutra the Buddha said He preaches Nirvana, but however true extinction is Buddhahood. That is why I ask the question. Let me know your thoughts.

Here is an excerpt from the Chapter in question:

Shariputra, listen carefully,
for the Law which the Buddhas have attained,
through the power of countless expedient means
they preach for the benefit of living beings.
The thoughts that are in the minds of living beings,
the different types of paths they follow,
their various desires and natures,
the good and bad deeds they have done in previous existences--
all these the Buddha takes cognizance of,
and then he employs causes, similes and parables,
words that embody the power of expedient means,
in order to gladden and please them all.
Sometimes he preaches sutras,
verses, stories of the previous lives of disciples,
stories of the previous lives of the Buddha, of unheard-of things.
At other times he preaches regarding causes and conditions,
uses similes, parables, passages of poetry
or discourses.
For those of dull capacities who delight in a little Law,
who greedily cling to birth and death,
who, despite the innumerable Buddhas,
fail to practice the profound and wonderful way
but are perplexed and confused by a host of troubles--
for these I preach nirvana.
I devise these expedient means
and so cause them to enter into the Buddha wisdom.
Up to now I have never told you
that you were certain to attain the Buddha way.
The reason I never preached in that manner
was that the time to preach so had not yet come.
But now is the very time
when I must decisively preach the Great Vehicle.
I use these nine devices,
adapting them to the living beings when I preach
my basic aim being to lead them into the Great Vehicle,
and that is why I preach this sutra.
There are sons of the Buddha who minds are pure,
who are gentle and of acute capacities,
who under innumerable Buddhas
have practiced the profound and wonderful way.
For these sons of the Buddha
I preach this sutra of the Great Vehicle.
And I predict that these persons
in a future existence will attain the Buddha way
Because deep in their minds they think of the Buddha
and practice and uphold the pure percepts,
they are assured they will attain Buddhahood,
and hearing this, their whole bodies are filled with great joy.
The Buddha knows their minds and their practices
and therefore preaches for them the Great Vehicle.
When the voice-hearers and bodhisattvas
hear this Law that I preach,
as soon as they have heard one verse
they will all without doubt be certain of attaining Buddhahood.
In the Buddha lands of the ten directions
there is only the Law of the one vehicle,
there are not two, there are not three,
except when the Buddha preaches so as an expedient means,
merely employing provisional names and terms
in order to conduct and guide living beings
and preach to them the Buddha wisdom.
The Buddhas appear in the world
solely for this one reason, which is true;
the other two are not the truth.
Never do they use a lesser vehicle
to save living beings and ferry them across.
The Buddha himself dwells in this Great Vehicle,
and adorned with the power of meditation and wisdom
that go with the Law he has attained,
he uses it to save living beings.
He himself testifies to the unsurpassed way,
the Great Vehicle, the Law in which all things are equal.
If I used a lesser vehicle
to convert even one person,
I would be guilty of stinginess and greed,
but such a thing would be impossible.
If a person will believe and take refuge in the Buddha,
the Thus Come One will never deceive him,
nor will he ever show greed or jealousy,
for he has rooted out evil from among the phenomena.
Therefore throughout the ten directions
the Buddha alone is without fear.
I adorn my body with the special characteristics
and shine my light upon the world.
I am honored by numberless multitudes
and for them I preach the emblem of the reality of things.
Shariputra, you should know
that at the start I took a vow,
hoping to make all persons
equal to me, without any distinction between us,
and what I long ago hoped for
has now been fulfilled.
I have converted all living beings
and caused them all to enter the Buddha way.
If when I encounter living beings
I were in all cases to teach them the Buddha way,
those without wisdom would become confused
and in their bewilderment would fail to accept my teachings.
I know that such living beings have never in the past cultivated good roots
but have stubbornly clung to the five desires,
and their folly and craving have given rise to affliction.
Their desires are the cause
whereby they fall into the three evil paths,
revolving wheel-like through the six realms of existence
and undergoing every sort of suffering and pain.
Having received a tiny form in the womb,
in existence after existence they constantly grow to maturity.
Persons of meager virtue and small merit,
they are troubled and beset by manifold sufferings.
They stray into the dense forest of mistaken views,
debating as to what exists and what does not,
and in the end cling to such views,
embracing all sixty-two of them 2 .
They are profoundly committed to false and empty doctrines,
holding firmly to them, unable to set them aside.
Arrogant and puffed up with self-importance,
fawning and envious, insincere in mind,
for a thousand, ten thousand, a million kalpas
they will not hear the Buddha's name,
nor will they hear the correct Law--
such people are difficult to save.
For these reasons, Shariputra,
I have for their sake established expedient means,
preaching the way that ends all suffering.
And showing them nirvana.
But although I preach nirvana,
this is not a true extinction.
All phenomena from the very first
have of themselves constantly borne the marks of
tranquil extinction.
Once the sons of the Buddha have carried out this path,
then in a future existence they will be able to become Buddhas.

-The rest of the Chapter can be found here, from the Lotus Sutra, Chapter Two, Expedient Means.

So in a sense Nirvana is an Expedient Means doctrine that leads to Buddhahood. But in what way? Nirvana is a step towards Buddhahood, but what has to be realized inbetween?

[muni]

So in a sense Nirvana is an Expedient Means doctrine that leads to Buddhahood. But in what way? Nirvana is a step towards Buddhahood, but what has to be realized inbetween?

Many methods are there, there is something for each of us, to be able to support being mindful of body speech and mind, to not get lead by the reacting grasping by our I feeling due to pleasant or not.

Meditation, contemplation, supporting behaviour in clarity, support each other.

An example; Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche, he was like the sun in which everyone could bath, his always fresh knowledge constantely flowing to help everyone to stop the circle of suffering due to confusion.

Whatever problems there are in the world
Are created by the afflictions in our own minds.
A mistaken attitude is a cause for the kleshas,
Yet the pattern of our thoughts can be refined.
As we have seen, the very root of samsara is the concept of self and our habit of clinging to our identification with an “ego.”

[muni]

Nirvana is a step towards Buddhahood, but what has to be realized inbetween?

I have not understood this question in my post above. My bad.
In between Nirvana and Buddhahood?

H H Dalai Lama explained once that the most subtle state of mind is clear light. There are other names meaning same like Rigpa. Nirvana is the fundamental Clear Light.

So is been said.

The Innate Mind of Clear Light
All Tibetan systems, in their final view, emphasize the fundamental innate mind of clear light. In terms of the center of these systems, all of the phenomena of cyclic existence and nirvana are the sport, the effulgence, of the fundamental innate clear light. Hence, the root and foundation, of all of that is within the scope of cyclic existence and nirvana is the fundamental clear light.

This being so, when practicing the spiritual path, there is nothing else needed to purify these impure appearances — which themselves dawn from within the context of innermost awareness or clear light — than to turn the fundamental innate mind of clear light itself into that through which you practice the spiritual path. Manifesting the fruit of practicing the path, the fundamental innate mind of clear light itself, when separated from all obstructive defilements, is the resultant omniscience of buddhahood, a state from which the greatest benefit to others can be affected.

https://upliftconnect.com/dalai-lama-di ... awareness/

[seeker242]

So in a sense Nirvana is an Expedient Means doctrine that leads to Buddhahood. But in what way? Nirvana is a step towards Buddhahood, but what has to be realized inbetween?

Seems Chapter 2 is referring to previous teachings of Nirvana, AKA nirvana of an arhat or specifically hinayana nirvana. What is to be realized in between is the Bodhisattva way. It's essentially saying arhat is not done yet.

[Budai]

So in a sense Nirvana is an Expedient Means doctrine that leads to Buddhahood. But in what way? Nirvana is a step towards Buddhahood, but what has to be realized inbetween?

Seems Chapter 2 is referring to previous teachings of Nirvana, AKA nirvana of an arhat or specifically hinayana nirvana. What is to be realized in between is the Bodhisattva way. It's essentially saying arhat is not done yet.

Yes. So what is different between the Nirvana of the Arhat and the Nirvana of the Buddha? I know this is a basic question, but the Buddha Wisdom is the most profound Wisdom in all of existence. So if anyone has an explanation that would be great. I understand the Bodhisattva Way must be there, but how can one even become an Arhat without being a Bodhisattva? Here, if you read this definition of Arhat from the SGI Dictionary it says that the term was originally synonymous with the Buddha, and also, I have read a book called The Teaching of Buddha where "Arhat" was used as a term to praise Him, at the end of the book, however it was as an Arhat who had realized a great many things. Here is the SGI definition for reference, which I also posted in another thread:

arhat ［阿羅漢］ (Skt; Jpn arakan): One who has attained the highest of the four stages that voice-hearers aim to achieve through the practice of Hinayana teachings, that is, the highest stage of Hinayana enlightenment. Arhat means one worthy of respect. In Chinese Buddhist scriptures, it is interpreted in several ways: one worthy of offerings; one who has nothing more to learn, meaning that an arhat has completed his learning and practice; destroyer of bandits, meaning that an arhat has repelled the “bandits” that are the illusions of thought and desire; and a person of “no rebirth,” because an arhat has freed himself from transmigration in the six paths. Of these, “one worthy of offerings” is among the ten honorable titles of a Buddha, thus indicating that arhat was originally synonymous with Buddha. With the rise of Mahayana Buddhism, the term arhat came to refer exclusively to the sages of Hinayana Buddhism.

[seeker242]

but how can one even become an Arhat without being a Bodhisattva? Here, if you read this definition of Arhat from the SGI Dictionary it says that the term was originally synonymous with the Buddha, and also, I have read a book called The Teaching of Buddha where "Arhat" was used as a term to praise Him, at the end of the book, however it was as an Arhat who had realized a great many things. Here is the SGI definition for reference, which I also posted in another thread:

I'm sure some more knowledgeable people can speak to all the particular technical differences between an arhat and a fully realized Buddha but it seems to me the main difference is the presence of lack of bodhicitta. The presence of bodhicitta is always considered superior to not having any regardless of anything else. One can become an arhat just by practicing and not having bodhicitta. A arhat has realized many great things but a Buddha saves others and an arhat does not. That alone makes a Buddha superior. I forget what chapter but the Lotus Sutra does say that all true arhats will eventually find the Bodhisattva way and become Buddhas so arhat is still a great feat but not as good as a Buddha.

[Budai]

Full Bodhicitta is needed to attain Buddhahood. I think I have worked out my thought process thanks to your post, also with the differences between Mahayana and Theraveda philosophies in mind. However I believe there are Bodhisattvas in the Theravada Way as well, I don't think it's only full of people who want a quick entrance into extinction, it simply focuses on the core connection with the Buddha as the primary Teacher. There are many Theravadins who are after the same Enlightenment as the Buddha, and Guatama mentions in the Lotus Sutra that He preached that the three Vehicles are just preached as three for the sake of diffident types of people as an Expedient Means, never one lesser than the other, and that ultimately they are all part of One Great Vehicle, and that nothing He has preached has been greedy, false, or stingy, it is just that certain Truths must be realized by all Buddhists before they can come to Enlightenment, like the ones mentioned in the Lotus Sutra as the means to attain Supreme Perfect Enlightenment. Thank you.

[GDPR_Anonymized001]

Mahayana Buddhism posits two kinds of awakening. The awakening of Arhats, who have extinguished afflictive obstructions (Klesas) but have not yet overcome cognitive obstructions (jneyavarana). Buddhas have extinguished both and attain what is called anuttarasamyaksambodhi (Unsurpassed, complete, and perfect awakening). If you chant the Heart Sutra that term may be familiar.

[Budai]

but have not yet overcome cognitive obstructions (jneyavarana).

What exactly is the nature of these?

[GDPR_Anonymized001]

but have not yet overcome cognitive obstructions (jneyavarana).

What exactly is the nature of these?

I'm not sure I understand what you're asking. Are you asking what cognitive obstructions are? What do you mean by "nature of" ?

[Budai]

but have not yet overcome cognitive obstructions (jneyavarana).

What exactly is the nature of these?

I'm not sure I understand what you're asking. Are you asking what cognitive obstructions are? What do you mean by "nature of" ?

Yes what are "cognitive obstructions"? I understand that someone from a past life can be a Buddha, even in the womb, so what type of cognizance are you referring to? Is it a deep Spiritual thing connected to inner-nature?

[GDPR_Anonymized001]

What exactly is the nature of these?

I'm not sure I understand what you're asking. Are you asking what cognitive obstructions are? What do you mean by "nature of" ?

Yes what are "cognitive obstructions"? I understand that someone from a past life can be a Buddha, even in the womb, so what type of cognizance are you referring to? Is it a deep Spiritual thing connected to inner-nature?

I'm afraid I don't understand to what you refer with regard Buddhas in the womb, etc. but perhaps this definition from the Princeton Dictionary of Buddhism can provide insight into the meaning of cognitive obstructions.

"[...]the cognitive obstructions are treated as subtler
hindrances that serve as the origin of the afflictive obstructions, and result from
fundamental misapprehensions about the nature of reality. [...] because of the attachment deriving ultimately from the reification of
what are actually imaginary external phenomena, conceptualization and
discrimination arise in the mind, which lead in turn to pride, ignorance, and wrong
views. Based on these mistakes in cognition, then, the individual engages in defiled
actions, such as anger, envy, etc., which constitute the afflictive obstructions."

[Budai]

I see , so obstructions are conductive to a wrong state of mind that produce a wrong perception of reality and so one may not yet attain the highest level of Bodhicitta needed in order to attain Buddhahood. Not clearing away false notions of self, clinging on to impermanent things, etc.

[Queequeg]

I forget what chapter but the Lotus Sutra does say that all true arhats will eventually find the Bodhisattva way and become Buddhas so arhat is still a great feat but not as good as a Buddha.

Basically the first 13 chapters of the Kumarajiva translation. Starts with Shakyamuni predicting Buddhahood for Shariputra in the third chapter. Eventually, everyone gets a prediction, including Devadatta. The whole first half of the Lotus is about overturning the idea that Arhats attain nirvana.

[Budai]

The whole first half of the Lotus is about overturning the idea that Arhats attain nirvana.

I see. Are you sure? So is "The Parable of the Phantom City" referring to Arhats? Can Bodhisattvas that are not Buddhas attain Nirvana while staying in the Bodhisattva stage, and not yet Buddha, but dwelling in Nirvana? This is my primary question. I understand that there are various levels of Stream Entry.

[Queequeg]

So in a sense Nirvana is an Expedient Means doctrine that leads to Buddhahood. But in what way? Nirvana is a step towards Buddhahood, but what has to be realized inbetween?

Seems Chapter 2 is referring to previous teachings of Nirvana, AKA nirvana of an arhat or specifically hinayana nirvana. What is to be realized in between is the Bodhisattva way. It's essentially saying arhat is not done yet.

Yes. So what is different between the Nirvana of the Arhat and the Nirvana of the Buddha?

In the Lotus, the Buddha says his parinirvana is an upaya (Life Span Chapter). He compares his teachings on Nirvana to a promise of toys to lure people out of samsara (parable of the burning house), and compares the arhat's nirvana to an illusory city conjured by the Buddha to give sravakas an opportunity to rest (parable of the conjured city).

I understand the Bodhisattva Way must be there, but how can one even become an Arhat without being a Bodhisattva?

In the Lotus, the Buddha seems to call the Bodhisattva path an upaya also. This is ambiguous in the text. One interpretation is that the only real path is the Buddhapath (Buddhayana). Some interpret the Buddhayana as being the same as the Bodhisattvayana. Text itself seems inconclusive.

I have read a book called The Teaching of Buddha where "Arhat" was used as a term to praise Him, at the end of the book

This might seem a bit of cop out, but the term Arhat changes meaning depending on context. In the Hinayana, an Arhat is sravaka who is awoken and will no longer be reborn. In the Mahayana, the term Arhat when applied to the Buddha becomes a title of praise, but it depends on what kind of Mahayana teaching we're talking about. In some kinds of Mahayana, its believed that the Buddha is still basically an arhat who will enter parinirvana. In other forms of Mahayana, for instance the Lotus, the Buddha's parinirvana is upaya.

[Queequeg]

The whole first half of the Lotus is about overturning the idea that Arhats attain nirvana.

I see. Are you sure?

Yes. Read it.

So is "The Parable of the Phantom City" referring to Arhats?

Yes. The parable is addressed to the sravaka followers of the Buddha.

Can Bodhisattvas that are not Buddhas attain Nirvana while staying in the Bodhisattva stage, and not yet Buddha, but dwelling in Nirvana? This is my primary question. I understand that there are various levels of Stream Entry.

Great bodhisattvas like Manjusri, Samantabhadra and Avalokitesvara, as I understand, have taken vows to remain in the world as long as there are sentient beings. If beings are infinite...

[Budai]

Okay I understand. Your perspective is Perfect. I will re-read the Lotus Sutra, because I came in to this thread with a slightly different point of view, and with your wisdom, adjusting it, I am finding out new things. I think you have realized the Mystic Law. For me it's my flesh and bones, but I will always meditate on it forever as the Way of the Buddhas, and what the Buddha says in it asks all Buddhists to uphold it forever. Serving the Lotus Sutra and it's Votaries are for me the path to Enlightenment. Thank you for answering my questions.