How does Karma purification work?

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Virgo
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Re: How does Karma purification work?

Post by Virgo »

We have to coordinate body, speech, and mind.

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Malcolm
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Re: How does Karma purification work?

Post by Malcolm »

Matt J wrote: Mon Oct 11, 2021 3:33 pm That's too weak of a correlation in my mind. The correlation in my experience is very tight. Of course, I say "seems" because who knows what's actually happening. Of course, the dharma is not responsible for the accumulation of karmic potential to begin with.

In Theravada Abhidhamma-based teaching it is fairly explicitly taught that meditation will lead to some deep, disturbing things to arise if one practices seriously and intensely. As the mind settles, karmic seeds ripen in an environment where there is no clinging/grasping. Some of this can get very intense--- one descriptor is the terror of a mother watching her last son being executed. The idea is that one prepares oneself for this via meditation. I've heard similar teachings across the Mahayana.

I think the emphasis on only positives is misleading, and often catches students off guard. Very few teachers IME recognize this and adequately prepare students for this.
There is simply is no basis for claiming that the true practice of Dharma can cause suffering.

To reply to the OP, the Letter to a Friend states:

One who in the past was heedless
but later becomes heedful
such as Nanda, Angulimala, Ajatasatru and Udayana,
is beautiful like the moon free of clouds.


Árya-caturdharmanirdeśa-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra states:

Maitreya, if a bodhisattva possesses four qualities, they will purify all accumulated nonvirtuous actions. If it is asked which four, the four are repentance, relying on bodhicitta, cultivating antidotes, and turning away from faults.

The Bodhicaryāvatara states:

Even if one commits an utterly unbearable nonvirtue,
one is instantly free by relying on [bodhicitta],
just as [one is free] from great fear by relying on a hero.
For what reason would the cautious not rely on [bodhicitta]?
"Death stands before all who are born."
— Ācārya Aśvaghoṣa
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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: How does Karma purification work?

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

Practicing Dharma, itself, is not the cause for suffering to occur. It’s not like suddenly because you are sitting on the cushion or doing visualizations that now all these demons are released.
But, it’s like a journey, a road trip. If your car never leaves the driveway, you won’t experience anything. As soon as you hit the highway there are going to be bumps and potholes. It’s because you are making progress on the journey itself. It’s not because there’s anything being caused by the vehicle.
The only difference is that the bumps and potholes are things you yourself created in the past.
EMPTIFUL.
An inward outlook develops outward insight.
Crazywisdom
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Re: How does Karma purification work?

Post by Crazywisdom »

PadmaVonSamba wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 3:54 am Practicing Dharma, itself, is not the cause for suffering to occur. It’s not like suddenly because you are sitting on the cushion or doing visualizations that now all these demons are released.
But, it’s like a journey, a road trip. If your car never leaves the driveway, you won’t experience anything. As soon as you hit the highway there are going to be bumps and potholes. It’s because you are making progress on the journey itself. It’s not because there’s anything being caused by the vehicle.
The only difference is that the bumps and potholes are things you yourself created in the past.
Suffering emerges for a dharma practitioner who has doubts and enters non dharma or confuses the path. And everyone has this.
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Re: How does Karma purification work?

Post by Malcolm »

Crazywisdom wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 2:21 pm
PadmaVonSamba wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 3:54 am Practicing Dharma, itself, is not the cause for suffering to occur. It’s not like suddenly because you are sitting on the cushion or doing visualizations that now all these demons are released.
But, it’s like a journey, a road trip. If your car never leaves the driveway, you won’t experience anything. As soon as you hit the highway there are going to be bumps and potholes. It’s because you are making progress on the journey itself. It’s not because there’s anything being caused by the vehicle.
The only difference is that the bumps and potholes are things you yourself created in the past.
Suffering emerges for a dharma practitioner who has doubts and enters non dharma or confuses the path.
Then axiomatically they are not practicing Dharma. But this of course is why we supplicate the lineage so that our mind turns to dharma, dharma becomes the path, the path removes delusion, and delusion arises as gnosis. Right?
"Death stands before all who are born."
— Ācārya Aśvaghoṣa
Crazywisdom
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Re: How does Karma purification work?

Post by Crazywisdom »

Malcolm wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 7:04 pm
Crazywisdom wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 2:21 pm
PadmaVonSamba wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 3:54 am Practicing Dharma, itself, is not the cause for suffering to occur. It’s not like suddenly because you are sitting on the cushion or doing visualizations that now all these demons are released.
But, it’s like a journey, a road trip. If your car never leaves the driveway, you won’t experience anything. As soon as you hit the highway there are going to be bumps and potholes. It’s because you are making progress on the journey itself. It’s not because there’s anything being caused by the vehicle.
The only difference is that the bumps and potholes are things you yourself created in the past.
Suffering emerges for a dharma practitioner who has doubts and enters non dharma or confuses the path.
Then axiomatically they are not practicing Dharma. But this of course is why we supplicate the lineage so that our mind turns to dharma, dharma becomes the path, the path removes delusion, and delusion arises as gnosis. Right?
That's what Gampopa said. I'm saying this happens to everyone.
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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: How does Karma purification work?

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

Malcolm wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 7:04 pm
Then axiomatically they are not practicing Dharma. But this of course is why we supplicate the lineage so that our mind turns to dharma, dharma becomes the path, the path removes delusion, and delusion arises as gnosis. Right?
This might depend on how one evaluates “practicing Dharma”. It might be the case that I practice Dharma quite badly. I’m lazy, inattentive, forgetful, uncaring, and stingy. But, at least my motivation is altruistic. I practice dharma (albeit quite poorly) for the benefit of all beings.

How does one determine the cut-off point, the dividing line between “practicing with mistakes” and “not really practicing at all”?
EMPTIFUL.
An inward outlook develops outward insight.
Malcolm
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Re: How does Karma purification work?

Post by Malcolm »

PadmaVonSamba wrote: Wed Oct 13, 2021 12:54 pm end on how one evaluates “practicing Dharma”. It might be the case that I practice Dharma quite badly. I’m lazy, inattentive, forgetful, uncaring, and stingy.
There is a slight twist on this:

I supplicate the guru so that dharma becomes the Dharma.
"Death stands before all who are born."
— Ācārya Aśvaghoṣa
Crazywisdom
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Re: How does Karma purification work?

Post by Crazywisdom »

Malcolm wrote: Wed Oct 13, 2021 1:14 pm
PadmaVonSamba wrote: Wed Oct 13, 2021 12:54 pm end on how one evaluates “practicing Dharma”. It might be the case that I practice Dharma quite badly. I’m lazy, inattentive, forgetful, uncaring, and stingy.
There is a slight twist on this:

I supplicate the guru so that dharma becomes the Dharma.
Very Kagyu of you today. Let's play the flip game. The guru us an illusion. The Yeshe Lama is one's own mind.
Malcolm
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Re: How does Karma purification work?

Post by Malcolm »

Crazywisdom wrote: Wed Oct 13, 2021 3:55 pm Very Kagyu of you today. Let's play the flip game. The guru us an illusion. The Yeshe Lama is one's own mind.
Not really. It is a formula found in Sakya texts.
"Death stands before all who are born."
— Ācārya Aśvaghoṣa
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