what Torma tradition?

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Aldo white
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what Torma tradition?

Post by Aldo white »

Image

which position to use in shirine room?

Left to right

1° watter ?
2° watter ?
3 ° flower torma ? 5 senses
4° incense
5° no use butterlamp?
6° perfum watter
7° other torma?
8° no sound offering?

Anyone know how to inform?
is this correct form? to assign torma home altar whartful
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Grigoris
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Re: what Torma tradition?

Post by Grigoris »

The teacher I follow says that wrathful offerings should be done in the opposite direction: You start with music and work towards the right to washing water.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
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conebeckham
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Re: what Torma tradition?

Post by conebeckham »

Those are Kagyu tormas......Karma Kagyu, Tsurphu Tradition.
You have a "Wangpo Metok" or Flower of the Senses, and a "Drakpo Shelze," or wrathful Food offering.

Normally, offerings to deities in front, in other words on the shrine, go from your left to your right, starting with the two waters, then flowers, incense, light, scented water, food, and music.

For Wrathful offerings, say to protectors or wrathful yidams, the Wangpo Metok takes the place of the flower, and the DrakShel is the food offering.

Sometimes, the offerings go in the opposite direction, depending on which deity or practice you are engaged in. Sometimes, there are offerings "missing"--say, Argham but no PAydam (Drinking water but not washing water), and sometimes there are additional "waters" or other offerings.
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")
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conebeckham
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Re: what Torma tradition?

Post by conebeckham »

Actually, on closer inspection, they may be Karma Kagyu tormas of the Palpung tradition...it's hard to say for sure. The base of the Shelze is fairly thick, and the torma is "stocky." Those are typical characteristics of Palpung tradition.
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")
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Grigoris
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Re: what Torma tradition?

Post by Grigoris »

conebeckham wrote: Mon Aug 12, 2019 3:12 amSometimes, there are offerings "missing"--say, Argham but no PAydam (Drinking water but not washing water)...
I have noticed that in some sadhana. Is it possible for you to explain why?

Thanks Cone!
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
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conebeckham
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Re: what Torma tradition?

Post by conebeckham »

Grigoris wrote: Mon Aug 12, 2019 7:27 am
conebeckham wrote: Mon Aug 12, 2019 3:12 amSometimes, there are offerings "missing"--say, Argham but no PAydam (Drinking water but not washing water)...
I have noticed that in some sadhana. Is it possible for you to explain why?

Thanks Cone!
Short answer: It's tradition.
Longer answer: depends on the practice......just as an example, and I don't think this contravenes samaya, Phagmo is not offered "paydam" or "washing/rinsing water for the feet."Perhaps her feet are not dirty? :shrug:
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")
Aldo white
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Re: what Torma tradition?

Post by Aldo white »

found these photos seems to be offering mahakala and haiagriva.

Can anyone who knows a nigyma master talk about using for vajrakilaya?
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Bristollad
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Re: what Torma tradition?

Post by Bristollad »

Kalarupa is another deity who isn't offered padyam - the explanation I was given was offering water to clean his feet would be in some way seeking to negate his trampling of enemies.
Fortyeightvows
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Re: what Torma tradition?

Post by Fortyeightvows »

Bristollad wrote: Tue Aug 13, 2019 11:18 am Kalarupa is another deity who isn't offered padyam - the explanation I was given was offering water to clean his feet would be in some way seeking to negate his trampling of enemies.
Thank you for that!
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AmidaB
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Re: what Torma tradition?

Post by AmidaB »

conebeckham wrote: Mon Aug 12, 2019 7:14 pm
Grigoris wrote: Mon Aug 12, 2019 7:27 am
conebeckham wrote: Mon Aug 12, 2019 3:12 amSometimes, there are offerings "missing"--say, Argham but no PAydam (Drinking water but not washing water)...
I have noticed that in some sadhana. Is it possible for you to explain why?

Thanks Cone!
Short answer: It's tradition.
Longer answer: depends on the practice......just as an example, and I don't think this contravenes samaya, Phagmo is not offered "paydam" or "washing/rinsing water for the feet."Perhaps her feet are not dirty? :shrug:
Hi,
I have heard that there is no 'water'for the feet when the given protector/deity never stops in her/his activity. No time for feet washing. As you surely know the whole process is mimicking the ancient indian tradition. When you would like to wash the feet of your precious guest, he or she have to take a seat at first.
tingdzin
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Re: what Torma tradition?

Post by tingdzin »

For the Nyingma Putri Regphung phurpa, 16 offerings are ideally arranged along a single line, starting from your left with the usual 2 peaceful waters, flower,etc. but in the middle, where the wrathful offerings start, it's wrathful food,etc, so that the last two on your right are the two wrathful "waters". Don't have a picture, but I hope that's clear.
Aldo white wrote: Mon Aug 12, 2019 11:25 pm Can anyone who knows a nigyma master talk about using for vajrakilaya?
"waters"
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