Losing merit

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Ken81
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Losing merit

Post by Ken81 »

I have a question regarding merits that I hope someone here has opinions on. So I grew up with having a quite Buddhist religious mom who was quite into the earning merits belief. And I was constantly reminded that one should do good deeds to earn merits for oneself. But I was taught that if you do a good deed (a favour) for a person and later mention that to that particular person regarding the favour you did for him/her, then I would lose those earned merits related to that favour. Is that true according to Buddhism beliefs? Anyone know? :)
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Virgo
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Re: Losing merit

Post by Virgo »

Ken81 wrote: Tue Feb 02, 2021 9:49 am I have a question regarding merits that I hope someone here has opinions on. So I grew up with having a quite Buddhist religious mom who was quite into the earning merits belief. And I was constantly reminded that one should do good deeds to earn merits for oneself. But I was taught that if you do a good deed (a favour) for a person and later mention that to that particular person regarding the favour you did for him/her, then I would lose those earned merits related to that favour. Is that true according to Buddhism beliefs? Anyone know? :)
I have never hear that, and I don't believe it is true. But in general, if you want something to grow it is better not to speak about it. As far as merit goes, if it is dedicated with three seals it cannot be lost. :anjali:

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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: Losing merit

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

There is some logic in this, because of the motivation behind telling someone. You may not regard it as “bragging” but anything that results in self-grasping naturally runs contrary to gaining merit.
EMPTIFUL.
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FiveSkandhas
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Re: Losing merit

Post by FiveSkandhas »

Ken81 wrote: Tue Feb 02, 2021 9:49 am I have a question regarding merits that I hope someone here has opinions on. So I grew up with having a quite Buddhist religious mom who was quite into the earning merits belief. And I was constantly reminded that one should do good deeds to earn merits for oneself. But I was taught that if you do a good deed (a favour) for a person and later mention that to that particular person regarding the favour you did for him/her, then I would lose those earned merits related to that favour. Is that true according to Buddhism beliefs? Anyone know? :)
I don't know about "losing" merit but I believe one can possibly create some bad karma by bragging or boasting about good deeds.

You said "mention" though. I would guess it depends on the situation, attitude, motivation, etc. Merely "mention" might be different from "bragging."

On a slightly different note, I read about a comparison between two Buddhist organizations in the west. One was mostly comprised of Asian people who had moved to this country (maybe Canada?), and the temple was doing very well financially. The temple emphasized the importance of merit, so lots of people have given money to the Sangha to make merit.

The other was comprised mostly of Western people born in that country. They tended to emphasize meditation and philosophy but spoke very little about merit. This Buddhist center was having deep financial troubles.

The article speculated that the difference between the two groups in terms of money was caused by different attitudes to merit.
"One should cultivate contemplation in one’s foibles. The foibles are like fish, and contemplation is like fishing hooks. If there are no fish, then the fishing hooks have no use. The bigger the fish is, the better the result we will get. As long as the fishing hooks keep at it, all foibles will eventually be contained and controlled at will." -Zhiyi

"Just be kind." -Atisha
GDPR_Anonymized001
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Re: Losing merit

Post by GDPR_Anonymized001 »

FiveSkandhas wrote: Tue Feb 02, 2021 6:05 pm On a slightly different note, I read about a comparison between two Buddhist organizations in the west. One was mostly comprised of Asian people who had moved to this country (maybe Canada?), and the temple was doing very well financially. The temple emphasized the importance of merit, so lots of people have given money to the Sangha to make merit.

The other was comprised mostly of Western people born in that country. They tended to emphasize meditation and philosophy but spoke very little about merit. This Buddhist center was having deep financial troubles.

The article speculated that the difference between the two groups in terms of money was caused by different attitudes to merit.
The article is titled: Buddhism Without Merit: Theorizing Buddhist Religio-Economic Activity in the Contemporary World

and can be found here
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FiveSkandhas
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Re: Losing merit

Post by FiveSkandhas »

jake wrote: Tue Feb 02, 2021 6:15 pm
FiveSkandhas wrote: Tue Feb 02, 2021 6:05 pm On a slightly different note, I read about a comparison between two Buddhist organizations in the west. One was mostly comprised of Asian people who had moved to this country (maybe Canada?), and the temple was doing very well financially. The temple emphasized the importance of merit, so lots of people have given money to the Sangha to make merit.

The other was comprised mostly of Western people born in that country. They tended to emphasize meditation and philosophy but spoke very little about merit. This Buddhist center was having deep financial troubles.

The article speculated that the difference between the two groups in terms of money was caused by different attitudes to merit.
The article is titled: Buddhism Without Merit: Theorizing Buddhist Religio-Economic Activity in the Contemporary World

and can be found here
Thank you for finding that. I thought it was a good article.
"One should cultivate contemplation in one’s foibles. The foibles are like fish, and contemplation is like fishing hooks. If there are no fish, then the fishing hooks have no use. The bigger the fish is, the better the result we will get. As long as the fishing hooks keep at it, all foibles will eventually be contained and controlled at will." -Zhiyi

"Just be kind." -Atisha
Varis
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Re: Losing merit

Post by Varis »

If my intention is to accumulate merit and to tell that person I accumulated merit for them in order to receive some sort of perceived benefit then it is the not the same as generating merit for someone with pure intentions.
If I generate merit for someone else with no intention of receiving benefit, and then later tell the person about it with the intention of receiving benefit these are two separate actions and one will not affect the per se.
"I have never encountered a person who committed bad deeds." ― Ven. Jìngkōng
SilenceMonkey
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Re: Losing merit

Post by SilenceMonkey »

I've never heard this specifically, but it seems right to me. When we do good things for others, a positive connection is built between you two on the basis of that. As soon as ego gets involved, it messes with the positive feeling there. Sometimes even mentioning "I did this for you" or "You know that thing I did for you?" can get ego involved in the relationship on the basis of that act.

There's a lot to be said for dedicating merit after doing good things for people, and that once dedicated properly, it will be saved for you untarnished. But in my experience, the merit doesn't end when the action is finished. I think there is also a continuity of positive feeling that happens in the relationship between two people, and as long as the feeling is untouched by negativity, it stays. Sometimes it even grows when we think about the goodness, like watering your plants. It's a heart to heart connection!

I haven't heard any teachings on this specifically, this is my own interpretation based on my experience.
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Budai
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Re: Losing merit

Post by Budai »

I personally really appreciate learning kind things people have done for me, am forever grateful, and praise them even more, to be kind!

:thanks: :heart:
Natan
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Re: Losing merit

Post by Natan »

Ken81 wrote: Tue Feb 02, 2021 9:49 am I have a question regarding merits that I hope someone here has opinions on. So I grew up with having a quite Buddhist religious mom who was quite into the earning merits belief. And I was constantly reminded that one should do good deeds to earn merits for oneself. But I was taught that if you do a good deed (a favour) for a person and later mention that to that particular person regarding the favour you did for him/her, then I would lose those earned merits related to that favour. Is that true according to Buddhism beliefs? Anyone know? :)
Generally if you remind someone of the favor you did for them it creates resentment in that person.
karmanyingpo
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Re: Losing merit

Post by karmanyingpo »

SilenceMonkey wrote: Sat Mar 06, 2021 7:29 am But in my experience, the merit doesn't end when the action is finished. I think there is also a continuity of positive feeling that happens in the relationship between two people, and as long as the feeling is untouched by negativity, it stays. Sometimes it even grows when we think about the goodness, like watering your plants. It's a heart to heart connection!
I consider this karma too. Actions of mind are also actions, and karma means action. Karma cause and effect. Just another form of good karma, mental events positively reverberating through time.

KN
ma lu dzok pe san gye thop par shok!
Bristollad
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Re: Losing merit

Post by Bristollad »

I have heard of this attitude from within the Thai Theravada community. A western anagarika told me that one of the most difficult things she had found to follow, was not thanking a layperson when they did something to benefit her. She was told that thanking them would lead to an increase in their pride, and thereby nullify any benefit they received from their act of generosity. She said she found it very difficult because she felt impolite not thanking them.

I can understand the reasoning and believe it could be the right way to act sometimes, but I also think it could lead to the beneficiary developing ideas of superiority. So we have to be skilful - sometimes when we "just mention" something good we've done it is to be praised for it, other times it is not. It's the whole problem of the 8 worldly dharmas.
The antidote—to be free from the suffering of samsara—you need to be free from delusion and karma; you need to be free from ignorance, the root of samsara. So you need to meditate on emptiness. That is what you need. Lama Zopa Rinpoche
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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: Losing merit

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

There’s a zen story about a rich patron of a temple who, after having given many gifts over time complains that he has never been thanked. The zen master there replies,”it is you who should be thankful!”

...for the opportunity to accrue great merit by being able to make donations, thankful that there is a temple to support.
EMPTIFUL.
An inward outlook produces outward insight.
SilenceMonkey
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Re: Losing merit

Post by SilenceMonkey »

PadmaVonSamba wrote: Sun Mar 07, 2021 5:13 pm There’s a zen story about a rich patron of a temple who, after having given many gifts over time complains that he has never been thanked. The zen master there replies,”it is you who should be thankful!”

...for the opportunity to accrue great merit by being able to make donations, thankful that there is a temple to support.
How true!

Sometimes I think the idea of merit as something that belongs to you might even get in the way of goodness. Especially as a foreign concept to us westerners, it can make things a bit stilted. Like Thich Nhat Hanh says, "Do the dishes to do the dishes." We don't need to give to make merit, we can give just for the happiness that comes with giving. Doing good because it makes us happy.

:heart: :anjali:
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