Can I ask this theoretical question

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Kili
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Can I ask this theoretical question

Post by Kili »

Christianity says the poorest and weakest of us will soon be triumphant. But Buddhism seems to be different with regards to this. Is it true that for example victims of disasters, rape and subsequent murder, or something comparably disruptive will take with them negative Kharma to the next life because the way of death was traumatic? Wouldn't that be profoundly disturbing from an ethical point of view, and wouldn't it be inhumane to tell relatives and friends about this? Imagine the victim was the sweetest person ever and would then have to pay for being victimized. That strikes me as so untypical of Buddhism, which is normally so soothing. Does the Buddha find a compassionate way out of this dilemma and is there hope and comfort that one could give to relatives about someone who passed away traumatically?
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Ayu
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Re: Can I ask this theoretical question

Post by Ayu »

Kili wrote: Wed Jan 27, 2021 9:52 pm Christianity says the poorest and weakest of us will soon be triumphant. But Buddhism seems to be different with regards to this. Is it true that for example victims of disasters, rape and subsequent murder, or something comparably disruptive will take with them negative Kharma to the next life because the way of death was traumatic? (...)
No, it's not true. Where does this idea come from?
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Queequeg
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Re: Can I ask this theoretical question

Post by Queequeg »

Kili wrote: Wed Jan 27, 2021 9:52 pm Christianity says the poorest and weakest of us will soon be triumphant. But Buddhism seems to be different with regards to this. Is it true that for example victims of disasters, rape and subsequent murder, or something comparably disruptive will take with them negative Kharma to the next life because the way of death was traumatic? Wouldn't that be profoundly disturbing from an ethical point of view, and wouldn't it be inhumane to tell relatives and friends about this? Imagine the victim was the sweetest person ever and would then have to pay for being victimized. That strikes me as so untypical of Buddhism, which is normally so soothing. Does the Buddha find a compassionate way out of this dilemma and is there hope and comfort that one could give to relatives about someone who passed away traumatically?
I would analyze the problem you propose this way. Start with the basics - Karma is intention. In that sense, karma that comes from a tragic death is not from the suffering entailed but rather the intentional reaction to it. I suppose we can imagine a range of reactions to an untimely and tragic death. I've heard that the last moment of thought can have a deep effect on how one fares in the between. I would think that the death process not being instantaneous that the person's baseline disposition would have the most impact on how they fare, not just the last moments. There are no doubt some who hold the view that the last moment is wholly determinative, but that would seem rather arbitrary and incompatible with more general ideas about karma.

There's another problem with karma that is often raised - if everything that happens is the fruition of karma, then that would mean that the person who suffers in a tragedy is actually culpable for their lot. That is a whole lot more problematic, IMHO.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
Kili
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Re: Can I ask this theoretical question

Post by Kili »

Queequeg wrote: Wed Jan 27, 2021 11:02 pm
Kili wrote: Wed Jan 27, 2021 9:52 pm Christianity says the poorest and weakest of us will soon be triumphant. But Buddhism seems to be different with regards to this. Is it true that for example victims of disasters, rape and subsequent murder, or something comparably disruptive will take with them negative Kharma to the next life because the way of death was traumatic? Wouldn't that be profoundly disturbing from an ethical point of view, and wouldn't it be inhumane to tell relatives and friends about this? Imagine the victim was the sweetest person ever and would then have to pay for being victimized. That strikes me as so untypical of Buddhism, which is normally so soothing. Does the Buddha find a compassionate way out of this dilemma and is there hope and comfort that one could give to relatives about someone who passed away traumatically?
I would analyze the problem you propose this way. Start with the basics - Karma is intention. In that sense, karma that comes from a tragic death is not from the suffering entailed but rather the intentional reaction to it. I suppose we can imagine a range of reactions to an untimely and tragic death. I've heard that the last moment of thought can have a deep effect on how one fares in the between. I would think that the death process not being instantaneous that the person's baseline disposition would have the most impact on how they fare, not just the last moments. There are no doubt some who hold the view that the last moment is wholly determinative, but that would seem rather arbitrary and incompatible with more general ideas about karma.

There's another problem with karma that is often raised - if everything that happens is the fruition of karma, then that would mean that the person who suffers in a tragedy is actually culpable for their lot. That is a whole lot more problematic, IMHO.
I thought a lot of the information about the disposition is carried over. Ajahn brahm says babies come with a history.
That would be totally incompattible with the former view.

About your last point do you think that is true? That people always deserve what they get? If I look at people who are generally wonderful and still suffer tremendous hardships I can't imagine that's true. Then again their karma might be split and their good character was the result of good karma while the other things happening were that of bad karma. But it doesn't feel right to me. I don't know how it works exactly
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Johnny Dangerous
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Re: Can I ask this theoretical question

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

Ayu wrote: Wed Jan 27, 2021 10:50 pm
Kili wrote: Wed Jan 27, 2021 9:52 pm Christianity says the poorest and weakest of us will soon be triumphant. But Buddhism seems to be different with regards to this. Is it true that for example victims of disasters, rape and subsequent murder, or something comparably disruptive will take with them negative Kharma to the next life because the way of death was traumatic? (...)
No, it's not true. Where does this idea come from?
This is more an idea I've seen associated with Vedanta/Hinduism, either that or it's a misinterpretation of Bardo teachings.
About your last point do you think that is true? That people always deserve what they get? If I look at people who are generally wonderful and still suffer tremendous hardships I can't imagine that's true. Then again their karma might be split and their good character was the result of good karma while the other things happening were that of bad karma. But it doesn't feel right to me. I don't know how it works exactly
It's not about "deserve" at all, because there is no divine judge handing out sentences.

There are three basic choices here:

1) Materialism - it's all random and terrible things happen to people all the time no rhyme or reason whatsoever

2) Karmic Explanation - some or all of what happens to people is based on previous causes and conditions (though it's worth mentioning, most of us can't know the specifics)

3) Theistic explanation - God is causing all these people to suffer for some unknown (or theoretical) reason. -Or- satan, the fall, or some evil force causes suffering, in which it becomes difficult to explain either God's benevolence or omnipotence, but people sure try.


So, you take your pick.

In the karmic explanation there really is no room for judging others or telling them they deserve anything when properly understood, because we have all been there, are there, or will be there. So the only proper response to suffering isunconditional compassion for the sufferer. And in fact, on a larger scale,responding to said suffering with unconditional compassion creates the causes for less suffering in the future.

In a practical sense, that's one way the basis of ethics in the Mahayana has been explained to me.

As far as trauma = more suffering...even in a purely conventional sense, that is entirely down to how the trauma is dealt with, no different in Dharma.
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when afflicted by disease

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared

-Khunu Lama
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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: Can I ask this theoretical question

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

What you are referring to doesn’t have to do with karma.
If a person dies in an agitated or terrified state of mind, this creates conditions for a negative rebirth. But keep in mind that strictly speaking, all states of rebirth are ultimately nothing but projections of one’s own mind.
However, just because an agitated or terrified state of mind creates conditions, those are not the only conditions and they may not even be what you might call the strongest prevailing conditions. It’s like being at a ball game when there’s a little bit of rain, but not enough to stop the game.

Thus, a person who has developed a peaceful state of mind has what you might call a lot of resiliency. It’s like the individual who only gets mad for a few seconds as opposed to the person who rants endlessly over some trivial thing and carries a grudge with them. Even if that generally calm and peaceful person dies falling out of a helicopter into a pool of hungry sharks and has that moment of terror, yes, that can have some effect. But if in life that person has developed a habit of letting things ‘roll of their back’ as the saying goes, that habitual pattern will also continue.
EMPTIFUL.
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seeker242
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Re: Can I ask this theoretical question

Post by seeker242 »

Kili wrote: Wed Jan 27, 2021 9:52 pm Is it true that for example victims of disasters, rape and subsequent murder, or something comparably disruptive will take with them negative Kharma to the next life because the way of death was traumatic?
No, the person who is doing the murdering is the one who is making bad karma that will follow them. Simply being murdered does not make karma as that is not an action you are doing. Karma is only made from actions that you do, not just from things happening to you. What happens to you might be an effect of previously made karma but there's no way to know for sure. How you react to things that happen to you makes karma, but it's not necessarily bad karma. It would depend entirely on how you react.
One should not kill any living being, nor cause it to be killed, nor should one incite any other to kill. Do never injure any being, whether strong or weak, in this entire universe!
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Re: Can I ask this theoretical question

Post by KathyLauren »

Kili wrote: Wed Jan 27, 2021 9:52 pmIs it true that for example victims of disasters, rape and subsequent murder, or something comparably disruptive will take with them negative Kharma to the next life because the way of death was traumatic?
No, it is not true. Karma is created by intentional actions. A person committing rape, murder, etc. will experience negative karma as a result of their actions. The victims will not.

Om mani padme hum
Kathy
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