The Great Abortion Debate

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Grigoris
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Re: The Great Abortion Debate

Post by Grigoris »

justsit wrote: Thu Apr 02, 2020 8:12 pmI was told that reincarnation continues with the same mindstream, and rebirth does not.
But that's a different discussion, let's leave that.
According to Abhidharma it is the same mindstream.

I was talking to a tulku once and he explained that for him, when he reborn in his current life, he had vivid memories during his childhood, but then as time passed and new layers of experience were added on, the memories grew dimmer.

I imagine it is like for me now: Most of my childhood memories (from this lifetime) are now kind of vague and unclear, lacking details, whereas when I was in my teens... But this stretches across into the previous lifetime for a tulku.

I also imagine gestation and birth would be horrific experiences and would cover up whatever vestige of memory of our last existence we may have had.

I believe that if in a previous existence "I" was an insect (for example), a lot of those memories/experiences would just not translate over into the human existence and so would be lost or incomprehensible. They made lead to vague unexplained feelings or habits.
Last edited by Grigoris on Thu Apr 02, 2020 10:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
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Re: The Great Abortion Debate

Post by Malcolm »

justsit wrote: Thu Apr 02, 2020 8:12 pm
I was told that reincarnation continues with the same mindstream, and rebirth does not.
Whoever told you that is mistaken. In Sanskrit, there is only one word for both: punarbhāva (yang srid).

But there is no conscious awareness while in the womb, correct?
It depends on whether you are a sentient being, a bodhisattva on the impure stages, or a bodhisattva on the pure stages, or in the last existence.

The first is unconscious at death, aware during the bardo, and unconscious after conception.

The second is aware at death, aware during the bardo, but unconscious after conception.

The third is aware at death, in the bardo, and after conception.
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Re: The Great Abortion Debate

Post by justsit »

Malcolm wrote: Thu Apr 02, 2020 10:03 pm
justsit wrote: Thu Apr 02, 2020 8:12 pm
I was told that reincarnation continues with the same mindstream, and rebirth does not.
Whoever told you that is mistaken. In Sanskrit, there is only one word for both: punarbhāva (yang srid).

But there is no conscious awareness while in the womb, correct?
It depends on whether you are a sentient being, a bodhisattva on the impure stages, or a bodhisattva on the pure stages, or in the last existence.

The first is unconscious at death, aware during the bardo, and unconscious after conception.

The second is aware at death, aware during the bardo, but unconscious after conception.

The third is aware at death, in the bardo, and after conception.
Thank you, that's very helpful.
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Re: The Great Abortion Debate

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"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
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Re: The Great Abortion Debate

Post by Schrödinger’s Yidam »

"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
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Re: The Great Abortion Debate

Post by Grigoris »

smcj wrote: Tue Apr 07, 2020 9:35 pm "My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE
So stop deceiving yourself.

You believe that you can see and understand the thoughts, motivation and actions of others when you are incapable of seeing understanding your own thoughts, motivation and actions.

If that is not deceiving yourself, then what is?
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
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Re: The Great Abortion Debate

Post by Schrödinger’s Yidam »

Grigoris wrote: Tue Apr 07, 2020 10:40 pm
smcj wrote: Tue Apr 07, 2020 9:35 pm "My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE
So stop deceiving yourself.

You believe that you can see and understand the thoughts, motivation and actions of others when you are incapable of seeing understanding your own thoughts, motivation and actions.

If that is not deceiving yourself, then what is?
If I am not deceiving myself, that is good.
I am the sole arbiter of that.

If you are not deceiving yourself, that is good.
You are the sole arbiter of that.

I see that as a win-win.
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
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Re: The Great Abortion Debate

Post by tkp67 »

Lama Yeshe seems to have a different take

https://www.lamayeshe.com/advice/abortion
Whether to Have an Abortion
Date Posted: October 2005

When a pregnant woman sought Rinpoche’s advice on having an abortion, Rinpoche responded with the following advice.

If you are considering abortion, it is better to plan for adoption than abortion, unless the baby may be deformed or have terrible suffering. Even so, there is no comparison between that suffering and the suffering of a hell realm. It is better to be born in the human realm, even for one day.

Having an abortion could shorten both your lives, as one of the results of killing. The negative karmic effects of killing also include many diseases—even food could cause you disease.

It is also an unpleasant thing for the child. If the child were to go to a better rebirth or to a pure land, there would be something better than this life for the child. But we can’t tell. So it is better off here in the human realm than in a worse realm.
as dies wikipedia

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhism_and_abortion
There is no single Buddhist view concerning abortion, although it is generally regarded negatively.[1]
Contents

Scriptural views and the monastic code

Inducing or otherwise causing an abortion is regarded as a serious matter in the monastic rules followed by both Theravada and Vajrayana monks; monks can be expelled for assisting a woman in procuring an abortion.[2] Traditional sources do not recognize a distinction between early- and late-term abortion, but in Sri Lanka and Thailand the "moral stigma" associated with an abortion grows with the development of the fetus.[2] While traditional sources do not seem to be aware of the possibility of abortion as relevant to the health of the mother, modern Buddhist teachers from many traditions- and abortion laws in many Buddhist countries- recognize a threat to the life or physical health of the mother as an acceptable justification for abortion as a practical matter, though it may still be seen as a deed with negative moral or karmic consequences.[2]
Regional views

Views on abortion vary a great deal between different regions, reflecting the influence of the various Buddhist traditions, as well as the influence of other religious and philosophical traditions and contact with Western thought.
Northern Buddhism

Abortion is generally regarded very negatively among ethnic Tibetan Buddhists.[3] Prior to the emergence of the Tibetan diaspora in the 1950s, Tibetans do not seem to have been familiar with abortion for reasons of medical necessity, and, facing little population pressure, saw little reason to engage in what they saw as the destruction of innocent life.[3] Though no systematic information is available, abortion appears to be very rare among exiled Tibetans living in areas where abortion is legal.[3] Tibetan Buddhists believe that a person who has had an abortion should be treated compassionately, and guided to atone for the negative act through appropriate good deeds and religious practices; these acts are aimed at improving the karmic outcome for both the mother and the aborted fetus, but authorities warn that they will not be effective if one has undertaken an abortion while planning to 'negate' it by atoning for it later.[3] The Dalai Lama has said that abortion is "negative," but there are exceptions. He said, "I think abortion should be approved or disapproved according to each circumstance."[4]
Southern Buddhism

Laws and views on abortion vary greatly in Theravada Buddhist nations. Attitudes and laws in Thailand are generally more favourable towards abortion than in Sri Lanka.[5] While abortion is still viewed as negative in Burma (Myanmar), it is allegedly also employed with some frequency to prevent out-of-wedlock births.[5] Regarding attitudes towards abortion in Thailand, Peter Harvey notes:

...abortion is discussed not in the language of rights – to life or choice – but of ‘benefit and harm, with the intent of relieving as much human suffering in all its states, stages and situations as circumstances allow’, with an emphasis on reducing the circumstances leading women to feel that they need to have an abortion.

In November 2010, the issue of abortion and Buddhism in Thailand was thrust onto the front pages after 2000 fetuses were discovered stored at a temple in Bangkok. Abortion remains illegal in the country except in cases of rape or risk to the woman's health. Following the scandal, leading politicians and monks spoke out to reaffirm their opposition to abortion laws. Phramaha Vudhijaya Vajiramedhi was unequivocal: "In [the] Buddhist view, both having an abortion and performing an abortion amount to murder. Those involved in abortions will face distress in both this life and the next because their sins will follow them." Prime Minister Abhisit announced a crackdown on illegal abortion clinics and refused calls to change the law, saying that current laws were "good enough."[6]

Peter Harvey relates attitudes towards abortion in Burma to Melford Spiro's observation that Buddhists in Myanmar recognize a clear distinction between what may be regarded as 'ultimate good' in a religious sense and what is a 'worldly good' or utilitarian act.[5] Despite the prevalence of illegal abortions in Myanmar due to economic difficulty, many Buddhists consider it against their religious beliefs.[7] A 1995 survey on women in Myanmar showed that 99% thought abortion was against their religious beliefs.[7]
East Asia

Buddhists in Japan are said to be more tolerant of abortion than those who live elsewhere.[8] In Japan, women sometimes participate in the Shinto-Buddhist ritual of mizuko kuyō (水子供養 — lit. 'fetus memorial service') after an induced abortion or an abortion as the result of a miscarriage.[9]

Similarly, in Taiwan women sometimes pray to appease ghosts of aborted fetuses and assuage feelings of guilt due to having an abortion; this type of ritual is called yingling gongyang.[10] The modern practice emerged in the mid-1970s and grew significantly in popularity in the 1980s, particularly following the full legalization of abortion in 1985.[11] It draws both from traditional antecedents dating back to the Han dynasty, and the Japanese practice.[12][13] These modern practices emerged in the context of demographic change associated with modernization – rising population, urbanization, and decreasing family size – together with changing attitudes towards sexuality, which occurred first in Japan, and then in Taiwan, hence the similar response and Taiwan's taking inspiration from Japan.[10][12]
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Re: The Great Abortion Debate

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tkp67 wrote: Wed Apr 08, 2020 12:42 pmLama Yeshe seems to have a different take
That is Lama Yeshe's advice to a particular woman. If anything, after years of dealing with TB teachers, one starts to realise that their advice is personal, particular and contextual.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
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Re: The Great Abortion Debate

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Grigoris wrote: Wed Apr 08, 2020 1:25 pm
tkp67 wrote: Wed Apr 08, 2020 12:42 pmLama Yeshe seems to have a different take
That is Lama Yeshe's advice to a particular woman. If anything, after years of dealing with TB teachers, one starts to realise that their advice is personal, particular and contextual.
You must have just done some yoga or something because you seem stretched out.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
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Re: The Great Abortion Debate

Post by Schrödinger’s Yidam »

One of the requirements for a human rebirth to be “precious” is to not be limited by karma. In the previous Kalu R’s commentary on this point he says that means you’re not in a situation where you are forced by circumstances to commit negative karma in order to survive. Ken McLeod said that meant Muslims in Tibet that were butchers, but I see it also as situations like soldiers on the battlefield, prisoners in a prison riot, or members of organized crime. Elsewhere Kalu R characterized that kind of situation as a karmic cul de sac, where your negative karma forces you to create more negative karma.

So my thesis is that one should not willingly put oneself into that kind of negative feedback loop. That includes avoiding unplanned pregnancies. The best answer to the problem of having to make a choice between the lesser of two evils is to make sure you do not have to make that choice in the first place.
Last edited by Schrödinger’s Yidam on Wed Apr 08, 2020 2:36 pm, edited 4 times in total.
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
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Re: The Great Abortion Debate

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Queequeg wrote: Wed Apr 08, 2020 2:07 pmYou must have just done some yoga or something because you seem stretched out.
This opinion of yours is based on your experience with Tibetan Buddhist teachers, right?
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
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Re: The Great Abortion Debate

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Grigoris wrote: Wed Apr 08, 2020 2:26 pm
Queequeg wrote: Wed Apr 08, 2020 2:07 pmYou must have just done some yoga or something because you seem stretched out.
This opinion of yours is based on your experience with Tibetan Buddhist teachers, right?
That's standard Buddhist teaching. Its what I've heard my whole life. I don't need to know the particulars of Tibetan Buddhism in practice to know when I hear Buddhist teachings. Its spoken in a manner that ultimately respects the prerogative of the woman to do as she sees appropriate for her. Its still a view that respects the right of women to choose what to do with their bodies.

But... let me get this straight...
Grigoris wrote: Tue Apr 07, 2020 10:40 pm You believe that you can see and understand the thoughts, motivation and actions of others when you are incapable of seeing understanding your own thoughts, motivation and actions.
You just wrote this... and then you offer an opinion about the thoughts, motivations and actions of this teacher.

C'mon, man. smh
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
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Re: The Great Abortion Debate

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smcj wrote: Wed Apr 08, 2020 2:23 pmSo my thesis is that one should not willingly put oneself in that kind of negative feedback loop. That includes avoiding unplanned pregnancies. The best answer to choice between the lesser of two evils is to make sure you do not have to make that choice in the first place.
That requires access to contraception. It also means that the man also agrees to contraception. It assumes that the people involved have the right to decide to use contraception. Etc...

Did you miss the statistics I posted earlier about which countries have highest rates of life threatening abortion procedures? Do you think that these countries have the prerequisites for family planning that I outlined above?
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
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Re: The Great Abortion Debate

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Queequeg wrote: Wed Apr 08, 2020 2:34 pmYou just wrote this... and then you offer an opinion about the thoughts, motivations and actions of this teacher.

C'mon, man. smh
I didn't offer an opinion, I did not say if Lama Yeshe was right or wrong in his advice, I said... Well... You know what I said, so I guess that makes your argument a straw man? :shrug:
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
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Re: The Great Abortion Debate

Post by Queequeg »

Grigoris wrote: Wed Apr 08, 2020 2:46 pm
Queequeg wrote: Wed Apr 08, 2020 2:34 pmYou just wrote this... and then you offer an opinion about the thoughts, motivations and actions of this teacher.

C'mon, man. smh
I didn't offer an opinion, I did not say if Lama Yeshe was right or wrong in his advice, I said... Well... You know what I said, so I guess that makes your argument a straw man? :shrug:
LOL
OK, Greg.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
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Re: The Great Abortion Debate

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Queequeg wrote: Wed Apr 08, 2020 2:34 pmThat's standard Buddhist teaching. Its what I've heard my whole life. I don't need to know the particulars of Tibetan Buddhism in practice to know when I hear Buddhist teachings. Its spoken in a manner that ultimately respects the prerogative of the woman to do as she sees appropriate for her. Its still a view that respects the right of women to choose what to do with their bodies.
Just to clarify: Tibetan Buddhists hold three sets of vows: "Hinayana" (renunciate), Bodhisattva and Tantric.

"Standard" depends on the level of vows that the lama is teaching from.

The Hinayana "standard" may have no relation to the Bodhisattva "standard" and in most cases will veer wildly from the Vajrayana standard.

That is why I said: "... one starts to realise that their advice is personal, particular and contextual."

They will assess the moral/practical basis of the person asking the question and will answer according to that. A correct answer given to one person at a particular point in time, may be completely wrong for another (or even the same person at another point in time).

That is why a personal guru is so important when practicing Vajryana.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
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Re: The Great Abortion Debate

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Grigoris wrote: Wed Apr 08, 2020 4:27 pm
Queequeg wrote: Wed Apr 08, 2020 2:34 pmThat's standard Buddhist teaching. Its what I've heard my whole life. I don't need to know the particulars of Tibetan Buddhism in practice to know when I hear Buddhist teachings. Its spoken in a manner that ultimately respects the prerogative of the woman to do as she sees appropriate for her. Its still a view that respects the right of women to choose what to do with their bodies.
Just to clarify: Tibetan Buddhists hold three sets of vows: "Hinayana" (renunciate), Bodhisattva and Tantric.

"Standard" depends on the level of vows that the lama is teaching from.

The Hinayana "standard" may have no relation to the Bodhisattva "standard" and in most cases will veer wildly from the Vajrayana standard.

That is why I said: "... one starts to realise that their advice is personal, particular and contextual."

They will assess the moral/practical basis of the person asking the question and will answer according to that. A correct answer given to one person at a particular point in time, may be completely wrong for another (or even the same person at another point in time).

That is why a personal guru is so important when practicing Vajryana.
I'm not about to voice any opinion about what goes on between a person and their guru.

The advice attributed to Lama Yeshe sounds like the view I've been taught my whole life in a Japanese Buddhist context. This advice is wholly consistent with teachings that are not veiled in any kind of secrecy and open to all. This advice is consistent with teachings on cause and effect, karma, rebirth, etc. These are primary teachings. Subjecting them to equivocation to spare feelings does harm to the practitioner in the long run as well as the Triple Gem. That advice is expressed gently and I can't think of a better way to address the question in a truthful but compassionate manner.

I believe that just because a teaching suggests a politically unpopular view or might hurt feelings, it ought not be abridged. Maybe what we really ought to strive for is to be kind and let that guide us.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
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Re: The Great Abortion Debate

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Queequeg wrote: Wed Apr 08, 2020 7:39 pmI believe that just because a teaching suggests a politically unpopular view or might hurt feelings, it ought not be abridged. Maybe what we really ought to strive for is to be kind and let that guide us.
It seems you have completely missed my point.

Twice.

Truth is that since you are not a Vajrayana practitioner, I should not assume that you would understand what I am saying.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
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Re: The Great Abortion Debate

Post by Queequeg »

LOL.
No, you shouldn't.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
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