The Great Abortion Debate

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muni
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Re: The Great Abortion Debate

Post by muni »

Often we say human, like being cells in such or such level. Is that so?
When the Bardo consciousness sees the scene of a couple having sexual contacts, it also feels emotions, and desires to touch or hug the woman or man according to its karmic background.
https://www.tibetanmedicine-edu.org/n-a ... bryology-1
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Ayu
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Re: The Great Abortion Debate

Post by Ayu »

Who uttered this saying first?
"For raising a child not only one person is needed but a whole village."

This means, the mother needs people, relatives, friends, in order to raise her child in a healthy way. So - which woman has got a village to help her? I don't know any.

The neglectance of women's and children's needs & rights on this globe is the source of suffering. Abortion is only a symptom.
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Re: The Great Abortion Debate

Post by Giovanni »

There are subjects that are difficult to discuss because they are complicated. Part of the difficulty is that there is no single Buddhist answer to them. Abortion is one. Their are students of Dharma who take the view that it is always wrong. Other equally sincere dharma students say that is too simple and unrealistic. Unwilling women, raped women, sick women, underaged women get pregnant all over the world everyday. There is no Buddhist solution to their situation. That must be a question of human heartedness, compassion, and sense.
The purpose of Buddhas Dharma is to show us how Samsara arises and how not to be there. It is not to provide us with a list of commandments that over ride all ethical questions.
muni
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Re: The Great Abortion Debate

Post by muni »

This means, the mother needs people, relatives, friends, in order to raise her child in a healthy way. So - which woman has got a village to help her? I don't know any.

The neglectance of women's and children's needs & rights on this globe is the source of suffering. Abortion is only a symptom.
This illustrates the woman alone, in helpless circumstances, but gets the right to decide what to do. This is no right but simple neglection.
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Budai
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Re: The Great Abortion Debate

Post by Budai »

The most important thing is to have Compassion for others in all of these situations. What is a Buddhist without Compassion? If we continue on in such a manner where we always care for individuals who are on either side of this issue, as well as those struggling in hospitals and places where these procedures are done, they will feel Loved. And if they feel Loved, they will likely choose a path that is most suitable for them in the situation as opposed to acting out of fear, coercion, or pressure. If they themselves receive enough Compassion from someone else, they will make Compassionate choices, and what Buddhist would argue against a truly Compassionate choice, if it is truly that?
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Ayu
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Re: The Great Abortion Debate

Post by Ayu »

muni wrote: Fri May 14, 2021 7:51 am
This means, the mother needs people, relatives, friends, in order to raise her child in a healthy way. So - which woman has got a village to help her? I don't know any.

The neglectance of women's and children's needs & rights on this globe is the source of suffering. Abortion is only a symptom.
This illustrates the woman alone, in helpless circumstances, but gets the right to decide what to do. This is no right but simple neglection.
It's not that simple always. I don't know any woman who took the decision for abortion with a light heart. Neglecting her circumstances and reducing the problem on "pro children's life" is a form of neglecting the woman as a human being. She's just a birth performer without an own life for those radical "pro-lifers".

Or did I miss what you really intended to say?
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Re: The Great Abortion Debate

Post by muni »

Ayu wrote: Fri May 14, 2021 8:25 am
muni wrote: Fri May 14, 2021 7:51 am
This means, the mother needs people, relatives, friends, in order to raise her child in a healthy way. So - which woman has got a village to help her? I don't know any.

The neglectance of women's and children's needs & rights on this globe is the source of suffering. Abortion is only a symptom.
This illustrates the woman alone, in helpless circumstances, but gets the right to decide what to do. This is no right but simple neglection.
It's not that simple always. I don't know any woman who took the decision for abortion with a light heart. Neglecting her circumstances and reducing the problem on "pro children's life" is a form of neglecting the woman as a human being. She's just a birth performer without an own life for those radical "pro-lifers".

Or did I miss what you really intended to say?
I have not taken the decision of abortion with a light heart, very far of that. Perhaps I make it so clear.
The women as a container for new life? That's another neglection.

Respectless materialism?
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Re: The Great Abortion Debate

Post by Aemilius »

Malcolm wrote: Thu May 13, 2021 3:03 pm
Aemilius wrote: Thu May 13, 2021 1:48 pmis said in the sutras that a Buddha cannot appear in a world if the society is corrupt, if wrong views are the norm, (i.e. that there is no karma, no result of karma, no higher and lower planes of existence, no spiritual path, and no result of the path, i.e. no arhats)
This is a shravakayana perspective, and really applies only to supreme nirmanakayas.
I would think that Mahayana holds a similar view (-why not??) You could see the vast number of previous births of of Shakyamuni and several disciples of the Buddha, that are told in Jatakas and Avadanas, as a gradual process of raising the society to a higher level, which finally culminates in the birth of a supreme Nirmanakaya and also as the births of his disciples in the same era and the same country or the same world of four continents.
svaha
"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 1. (in english and sanskrit)
muni
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Re: The Great Abortion Debate

Post by muni »

Könchok Chödrak wrote: Fri May 14, 2021 8:23 am The most important thing is to have Compassion for others in all of these situations. What is a Buddhist without Compassion? If we continue on in such a manner where we always care for individuals who are on either side of this issue, as well as those struggling in hospitals and places where these procedures are done, they will feel Loved. And if they feel Loved, they will likely choose a path that is most suitable for them in the situation as opposed to acting out of fear, coercion, or pressure. If they themselves receive enough Compassion from someone else, they will make Compassionate choices, and what Buddhist would argue against a truly Compassionate choice, if it is truly that?
:good:
Malcolm
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Re: The Great Abortion Debate

Post by Malcolm »

Pondera wrote: Fri May 14, 2021 4:01 am
Malcolm wrote: Fri May 14, 2021 1:32 am
Pondera wrote: Fri May 14, 2021 12:27 am
All lives should be given a chance.
You can certainly feel that, but you have no arguments at all to bring against a women’s choice to end an unwanted pregnancy that are not fundamentally religious. Religion Has no role in democratic governance in a secular society. In most modern nations, A women in these countries can choose to end a pregnancy or not, it’s up to her.

Dharma and governance are different. The Buddha understood this, and in matters of law deferred to the state.
Certainly. She can do that. But there are other options. One could put the baby up for adoption.

I’m of the mind that this being growing inside of her is “meant to be” - and despite all the hardships it may endure - it deserves a right to live.

It is better to endure one’s karma in a crappy life than to be eliminated before one is even born.
Good thing you are not in charge of women’s bodies.
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Re: The Great Abortion Debate

Post by PeterC »

Könchok Chödrak wrote: Fri May 14, 2021 8:23 am The most important thing is to have Compassion for others in all of these situations. What is a Buddhist without Compassion? If we continue on in such a manner where we always care for individuals who are on either side of this issue, as well as those struggling in hospitals and places where these procedures are done, they will feel Loved. And if they feel Loved, they will likely choose a path that is most suitable for them in the situation as opposed to acting out of fear, coercion, or pressure. If they themselves receive enough Compassion from someone else, they will make Compassionate choices, and what Buddhist would argue against a truly Compassionate choice, if it is truly that?
That all sounds nice. But are you still saying that you get to tell women what they can or can’t do?
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Re: The Great Abortion Debate

Post by Giovanni »

What is a Buddhist?

I am not joking. There is no set way to be a Buddhist. And Buddhist is a made up word less than one hundred years ago by westerners.
There are students of the Buddhadharma. They have a wide number of life styles and practices and beliefs. A forum like this does a good job in representing this wide ness.
There are qualities which allBuddhist schools praise. Like compassion. But there is no agreement 100% about what compassion looks like. A well known teacher in the Karma Kagyu made up a term “idiot compassion” this is about people who mean good for others but lack the wisdom to know what good is for that person.
None of know what good is for any individual woman, or for their foetus.
Compassion means admitting that instead of seeing a law that always applies always.
muni
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Re: The Great Abortion Debate

Post by muni »

There are responsible men who are supporting women in stead of leaving her alone in this difficulty, the sadness and guilt as a heavy stone on her shoulder. Supporting each other, going through this together, whatever the decision is.

A women alone, should get all possible support, of course Compassionate without being seen as an object.

This is not the same as a men telling her what she should do or not.

I suppose not many men here on board had to go through such?
Malcolm
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Re: The Great Abortion Debate

Post by Malcolm »

Könchok Chödrak wrote: Fri May 14, 2021 8:23 am The most important thing is to have Compassion for others in all of these situations. What is a Buddhist without Compassion? If we continue on in such a manner where we always care for individuals who are on either side of this issue, as well as those struggling in hospitals and places where these procedures are done, they will feel Loved. And if they feel Loved, they will likely choose a path that is most suitable for them in the situation as opposed to acting out of fear, coercion, or pressure. If they themselves receive enough Compassion from someone else, they will make Compassionate choices, and what Buddhist would argue against a truly Compassionate choice, if it is truly that?
Compassion can be tricky.

Suppose there is a runaway train. You are standing at a switch on a railroad track, and on one branch there was a work party and the other just one person. If you don't throw the switch, everyone in the work party dies. If you do throw the switch, one person dies.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trolley_problem

If you knew your pregnancy was going to result in Hitler, would you abort?

Further, all the pro-lifers here are arguing from the perspective that a zygote/fetus is a person. But this is really not clear at all. The generally accepted biological definition of "personhood" is viability, that is, abortion should be prohibited (other than in special cases) after a fetus reaches viability:
"Until the fetus is viable, any rights granted to it may come at the expense of the pregnant woman, simply because the fetus cannot survive except within the woman's body.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beginning ... personhood
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Re: The Great Abortion Debate

Post by Pondera »

PeterC wrote: Fri May 14, 2021 5:41 am
Pondera wrote: Fri May 14, 2021 12:27 am All conceptions have the POTENTIAL to become infant human beings. Ending that process is like throwing seeds into a fire. A “waste”. If my father had his way, my mother would have aborted me. My mother was a devout Christian and didn’t care that my father would have nothing to do with the child.

I was born. I was a joy to my mother. I grew up. Ran into some road blocks - but came out clean on the other side.

I write this post - as a person EXCEPTIONALLY happy with my state and growth in the dharma.

All lives should be given a chance. Those lives - if they fail - are better off than having been rooted out at the stage of embryonic development.
So you're against male masturbation, too? Those are billions of potential lives, that just need the right conditions to become people.

And if what we're protecting is potential - surely we should ban vasectomies, hysterectomies and contraceptives, because they limit what would otherwise have the potential to become life?
Those are male gametes. Unless they make contact with a ovum, there is no potential for life.

That being said, I think masturbation is a nasty habit.
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Re: The Great Abortion Debate

Post by Genjo Conan »

muni wrote: Fri May 14, 2021 2:30 pm There are responsible men who are supporting women in stead of leaving her alone in this difficulty, the sadness and guilt as a heavy stone on her shoulder. Supporting each other, going through this together, whatever the decision is.

A women alone, should get all possible support, of course Compassionate without being seen as an object.

This is not the same as a men telling her what she should do or not.

I suppose not many men here on board had to go through such?
Since we now, again, have dudes on the internet arguing on the basis of how women supposedly feel about abortion, I'm gonna quote something I posted earlier--
Genjo Conan wrote: Fri Apr 23, 2021 7:08 pm
Most women do not regret having had abortions.

Before we were married, my now-wife and I had an unplanned pregnancy. (Thought we were protected, weren't, oops.) We decided to end the pregnancy. It frankly wasn't much of a decision; it was absolutely the right thing for us to do at the time, and we certainly don't regret it or view it as a difficulty. We now have a daughter whom we love very much.

Unless you're a woman, I'd respectfully suggest not arguing from what you believe women feel about abortion.
muni
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Re: The Great Abortion Debate

Post by muni »

Unless you're a woman, I'd respectfully suggest not arguing from what you believe women feel about abortion.
Not many had it difficult? I am very happy to hear this. Alas there are other.

Yes I am woman. And I think to start a new thread:

The Great Castration Debate.
Malcolm
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Re: The Great Abortion Debate

Post by Malcolm »

muni wrote: Fri May 14, 2021 4:16 pm The Great Castration Debate.
That would only be apropos if this thread were entitled "The Great Clitorectomy Debate, but an abortion is neither a castration nor a clitorectomy.
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Re: The Great Abortion Debate

Post by Genjo Conan »

muni wrote: Fri May 14, 2021 4:16 pm
Unless you're a woman, I'd respectfully suggest not arguing from what you believe women feel about abortion.
Not many had it difficult? I am very happy to hear this. Alas there are other.
Well, of course there are others. But I don't believe the feelings of a minority should be used as a cudgel to restrict the reproductive rights of the majority. No one is forcing women to have abortions that that don't want; the question is whether women who do want abortions should be allowed to have them. I believe they should.
Yes I am woman.
I apologize: I shouldn't have assumed.
And I think to start a new thread:

The Great Castration Debate.
As Malcolm wrote, that's a non sequitur, but go for it, I suppose.
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Re: The Great Abortion Debate

Post by Malcolm »

Genjo Conan wrote: Fri May 14, 2021 5:45 pm As Malcolm wrote, that's a non sequitur, but go for it, I suppose.
The fact is that very few people in this conversation have really given any serious thought to the ethical issues at hand. They are mostly just spewing knee-jerk religious dogmas, borrowing rhetoric from pro-life Christians, who have a one-lifetime view.
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