The Great Abortion Debate

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tkp67
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Re: The Great Abortion Debate

Post by tkp67 »

Grigoris wrote: Wed Apr 08, 2020 1:25 pm
tkp67 wrote: Wed Apr 08, 2020 12:42 pmLama Yeshe seems to have a different take
That is Lama Yeshe's advice to a particular woman. If anything, after years of dealing with TB teachers, one starts to realise that their advice is personal, particular and contextual.
This is as it should be correct?

And if this is the case isn't boundless, pure, compassionate equanimity in this case lacking bias either way until there is a specific scenario?
Fortyeightvows
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Re: The Great Abortion Debate

Post by Fortyeightvows »

These infants had their normal development interrupted by voluntary or forced abortion.
They are abandoned here because their makers refused to accept responsibility, pretending that the child had been conceived either casually or illegitimately. The fetus had taken human shape so its innate life did not die out completely. Thus the souls of these tiny creatures survived a little while on earth, before they came here. Considering the fact that each human has a predestined fate, why then are these beings prevented from seeing the light of day? Their vengeance on their parents persists forever. They swear to bring an implacable woe upon their parents by not allowing them to
enjoy matrimonial happiness, and plaguing them until their death. As soon as the souls of their parents come down to hell, the infants cling to them to reclaim their lives. Because of such moral torment, it is recommended that humans not practice abortion. This practice not only jeopardizes virtue, but also creates the abominable, lewd vice of lust. The people guilty of abortion must redeem their sin by acquiring an important record of good actions and meritorious deeds. Only under these conditions can hell consider mitigating circumstances in favor of the sinners
這些都是被世人墮胎的小兒,因其已成形,天性不滅,死後皆到此地。因世人不願養育或有不正當的結晶,往往胎兒未能出世,便被墮胎死亡,而一人一條生命,這些被拋棄的小兒,因未能出世,所以怨恨之心不死,除暗中消耗其父母之錢財外,待其父母死後再有一段糾纏。所以勸世間的人,不可隨便墮胎,此舉不但損德,還會造成淫風不息……,凡是曾墮胎損兒者,要多造功德,以補過錯,則陰律亦可減輕此罪。
Alas! It’s sorrowful to say that people nowadays are so deeply plunged in the abyss of love that they trifle with their own blood and flesh. Abortion has been practiced regularly and to-be-born infants are abandoned even from within the wombs of their mothers. What a disgusting spectacle! The sight is simply repulsive to Buddhas and angels. It is important to advise mankind to change and embark on the “Arc of Mercy”, in conformity with the divine will, and to establish an ethical norm in married life in order to secure a sane and sound progeny and permanent happiness in the family. Mild moral satisfaction is much more valuable that momentary voluptuousness procured for sensual pleasures.
One should preserve one’ energy and should not waste one’s blood, because these aren’t limitless. Men must make efforts to render themselves useful for humanity, for society, and for their families.
嘆世人愚痴,只知沐浴愛河,却將那血肉墮胎拋不管?心太殘?令仙佛也不忍看。勸眾生,要改過,上慈航。天倫樂,夫婦道,應是傳宗接代,調和溫暖家庭。精神上之愉快,勝那一時情慾之發洩。珍惜有限精血,貢獻社會國家,做一番有益人生之事吧
http://www.vovi.org/en/PDF/English_VoyagesToHell.pdf

http://www.taolibrary.com/category/cate ... 02b/10.htm
Fortyeightvows
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Re: The Great Abortion Debate

Post by Fortyeightvows »

When The Buddha was in the world, there was Laywoman by the name Confusion. She was practising the Buddha Dharma in her home life. She begged The Buddha to allow her to leave the home life. Sorrowfully she cried to The Buddha, "World Honoured One, I have created deep and evil karma. I am regretful of my evil conduct, and seek to repent my offences. I hope to reform, in order to lead a life of goodness. I only hope The World Honoured One will bestow kindness upon me and listen to the details!"

"My circumstance is such that my family's condition does not allow me to bear any children. That is why I used medicine to murder the foetus, which was fully eight months old. The foetus that I aborted was fully grown with four healthy limbs and was complete with a human form."

"Later I met with a wise man who told me, 'People who have purposely aborted the foetus will be infected with serious illnesses in the present lifespan and receive the retribution of a short lifespan with very little blessing. After they have passed away, they will fall into the Avici Hell to experience terribly acute sufferings'."

"After listen to that, I was very frightened and I deeply regret what I have done. I only hope that the World Honoured One, with your strength of great kindness and compassion, will save me from falling into the deep pit. Please tell me the ways of liberation. Do allow me to leave the home life, so as to not undergo such acute sufferings."

The Thus Come One of Pervasive Lights and Proper Views said to Confusion, "There are five kinds of Evil Karma which are difficult to extinguish, even if one were to repent of them. What are the five kinds of offences? The first one is killing the father, the second one is killing the mother, the third one is abortion, the fourth one is to injure The Buddha, the fifth one is to create disharmony among the Sangha assemblies. These five types of evil and sinful karma are difficult to extinguish."

After listening to that, the woman Confusion wept sorrowfully with tears like falling rain. Sadly, she made obeisance to The Buddha. Then she fell down before The Buddha and again she begged, "The World Honoured One is of great kindness and compassion, who is able save all beings. I beg the World Honoured One to have pity on me and tell me the way to liberation."

The Thus Come One of Pervasive Lights and Proper Views told her, "You are supposed to fall down into The Avici Hell because of your evil karma, and experience the acute suffering without any respite. In the cold Hell, the offenders will encounter the severely cold wind and be tortured by the sudden chill. In the feverish Hell of heat, the offenders will experience sudden heat waves, which are brought about by the hot wind."
其佛法中,有一優婆夷,名曰顛倒,聞佛出世,求欲出家,悲號啼哭,白彼佛言:世尊,我有惡業,求欲懺悔,唯願世尊,聽我具說。我於昔時,身懷胎孕,足滿八月,為家法故,不貪兒息,遂服毒藥,殺子傷胎,唯生死兒,人形具足。曾聞智人來謂我言:若固傷胎,此人現世得重病報,壽命短薄,墮阿鼻獄,受大苦惱,我今惟忖,生大悲懼,唯願世尊,以慈悲力,為我說法,聽我出家,令免斯苦

爾時普光正見如來,告顛倒言:世間有五種,懺悔難滅。何等為五?一者殺父,二者殺母,三者殺胎,四者出佛身血,五者破和合僧,如此惡業,罪難消滅。爾時顛倒女人啼號哽咽,悲泣雨淚,五體投地,踠轉佛前,而白佛言:世尊大慈,救護一切,唯願世尊憐愍說法。
When the woman Confusion heard the teaching of The Buddha, she was so sorrowful that she fainted and fell on the floor. After some time, she gradually recovered, and again she asked, "World Honoured One! Is it the case that I alone will experience such torment? Or is this suffering to be experienced by all those women who have purposely aborted their foetus?"

"The Thus Come One Pervasive Light told the woman Confusion, 'Your foetus is fully grown like a human being. And its dwelling in the womb resembles that of a hell. It also resembles that of a great rock, which oppresses one's body. If the mother has partaken hot food, the foetus will feel as though it is dwelling in the Heated Hell. If the mother has taken cold food, the foetus will feel as though it is dwelling in the icy cold and chilling Hell. It is tormented by acute suffering the whole day"

"You are emotionally unstable because of the fire of delusion which gives rise to evil thoughts. That is why you have purposely taken the poison to abort the foetus."

"You have created such evil karma, so it is natural for you to fall into The Avici Hell. The offenders in the Uninterrupted Hells are your partners."
http://tripitaka.cbeta.org/zh-cn/X01n0017_001

https://book.bfnn.org/books/0026.htm

http://www.sutra.org.tw/library/reads%2 ... %B6%93.pdf

http://www.yufotemple.com/view/241

http://www.buddhasutra.com/files/dharan ... ddha_1.htm
Malcolm
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Re: The Great Abortion Debate

Post by Malcolm »

Presto Kensho wrote: Thu Mar 19, 2020 7:16 pm
Malcolm wrote: Thu Mar 19, 2020 7:11 pm A bhikṣu etc., only commits parajika, a complete defeat, if he causes an abortion after the 19th week. Prior to that, causing an abortion is not considered killing a human being.
Please cite where that can be found in the Vinaya.
I spoke in error. I conflated the issue with the fact that it is held in Tibetan and Ayurveda, medicine that fetuses suffer no pain prior to 19 weeks since their sense organs are not formed. In the Sarvāstivadin Vinaya, the nineteenth week is when a fetus is not longer called a "human embryo" and now termed a "human." Bhikṣus, etc., who encourage abortions do suffer monastic defeats. Unlike some people around here, when I make a mistake, I admit it.

Malcolm wrote: Thu Mar 19, 2020 7:11 pm All of the arguments against abortion hinge on religious beliefs.
According to medical and biological science, when does life begin?
Here is a summary of various views. In short, there is no consensus:

https://science.jburroughs.org/mbahe/Bi ... ebegin.pdf
Malcolm wrote: Thu Mar 19, 2020 7:11 pm Therefore, they violate the establishment clause of the first amendment.
If the government should stay out of abortion, why should there be public funding of abortion?
In the United States, abortion is a legal medical procedure, and women who seek it should not be be penalized by being refused financial relief if they are unable to afford the procedure.

Ideally, people should try to avoid having abortions. Realistically, unwanted pregnancies will happen. It is far better for abortions to be safe and legal, than for them to be illegal, forcing women to resort to unsafe measures to end pregnancies. I personally do not favor abortion; however, I am totally against legislating religious principles into law.
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Re: The Great Abortion Debate

Post by Nicholas Weeks »

The effect of killing a future human stops their chances to improve merit or good karma. Who knows how many sages or virtuous people are not here because of the butchery. If bad folk are trying to be born, then their chance for lessening their bad karma is also stopped.

The status of the womb being is not relevant.
Malcolm
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Re: The Great Abortion Debate

Post by Malcolm »

Nicholas Weeks wrote: Sat Aug 29, 2020 7:45 pm The effect of killing a future human stops their chances to improve merit or good karma. Who knows how many sages or virtuous people are not here because of the butchery. If bad folk are trying to be born, then their chance for lessening their bad karma is also stopped.
Being aborted, like being murdered, can be a result of karma one committed in a past life. For example, your karmavipaka sucks so bad you were conceived in the womb of a women who does not want to be pregnant with you. There are no "innocents" in the web of samsara. The idea that fetuses are "innocent" is an entirely Christian idea, based on creationist ideology.

Also, since all sentient beings are predicted to full buddhahood, being aborted now and again is hardly going impeded the force of the Buddha's prediction in this respect. After all, since there is no beginning to samsara, we've all been aborted countless times, and our mind streams still keep coming back for more. Of course, if one is a Christian, its a one shot deal, so more serious for then, because somehow their pitiless god does not automatically conduct aborted souls to heaven.
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Re: The Great Abortion Debate

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Malcolm wrote: Sat Aug 29, 2020 8:33 pm
Nicholas Weeks wrote: Sat Aug 29, 2020 7:45 pm The effect of killing a future human stops their chances to improve merit or good karma. Who knows how many sages or virtuous people are not here because of the butchery. If bad folk are trying to be born, then their chance for lessening their bad karma is also stopped.
Being aborted, like being murdered, can be a result of karma one committed in a past life. For example, your karmavipaka sucks so bad you were conceived in the womb of a women who does not want to be pregnant with you. There are no "innocents" in the web of samsara. The idea that fetuses are "innocent" is an entirely Christian idea, based on creationist ideology.

Also, since all sentient beings are predicted to full buddhahood, being aborted now and again is hardly going impeded the force of the Buddha's prediction in this respect. After all, since there is no beginning to samsara, we've all been aborted countless times, and our mind streams still keep coming back for more. Of course, if one is a Christian, its a one shot deal, so more serious for then, because somehow their pitiless god does not automatically conduct aborted souls to heaven.
So is human intervention required to fulfill bad karma? I think not. My mother lost a child from a natural (or karmic if you wish) miscarriage.
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Re: The Great Abortion Debate

Post by Malcolm »

Nicholas Weeks wrote: Sat Aug 29, 2020 8:56 pm
Malcolm wrote: Sat Aug 29, 2020 8:33 pm
Nicholas Weeks wrote: Sat Aug 29, 2020 7:45 pm The effect of killing a future human stops their chances to improve merit or good karma. Who knows how many sages or virtuous people are not here because of the butchery. If bad folk are trying to be born, then their chance for lessening their bad karma is also stopped.
Being aborted, like being murdered, can be a result of karma one committed in a past life. For example, your karmavipaka sucks so bad you were conceived in the womb of a women who does not want to be pregnant with you. There are no "innocents" in the web of samsara. The idea that fetuses are "innocent" is an entirely Christian idea, based on creationist ideology.

Also, since all sentient beings are predicted to full buddhahood, being aborted now and again is hardly going impeded the force of the Buddha's prediction in this respect. After all, since there is no beginning to samsara, we've all been aborted countless times, and our mind streams still keep coming back for more. Of course, if one is a Christian, its a one shot deal, so more serious for then, because somehow their pitiless god does not automatically conduct aborted souls to heaven.
So is human intervention required to fulfill bad karma? I think not. My mother lost a child from a natural (or karmic if you wish) miscarriage.
Sometimes one's negative karma results in one being reborn in a place where one's life will be taken in an untimely way: there are three causes of death: lack of merit, exhaustion of life force, and karmavipaka, such as being murdered.

One can reasonably assume that aborted human fetuses either lack the merit to take birth in a suitable womb or that their karmavipaka causes them to meet death before they have been born at the hands of abortionist.

After all, karma is unerring, and killing human beings is killing human beings. But it does not stop the police from killing suspects, criminals from killing the police, nor soldiers from shooting each other, etc., all causes and results of karma.

You know what they say: Karma's a bitch.
humble.student
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Re: The Great Abortion Debate

Post by humble.student »

Nicholas Weeks wrote: Sat Aug 29, 2020 7:45 pm The effect of killing a future human stops their chances to improve merit or good karma. Who knows how many sages or virtuous people are not here because of the butchery.
These sages and virtuous people are paying off their bad karma in the process, are they not?
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Re: The Great Abortion Debate

Post by n8pee »

Malcolm wrote: Sat Aug 29, 2020 8:33 pm Sometimes one's negative karma results in one being reborn in a place where one's life will be taken in an untimely way: there are three causes of death: lack of merit, exhaustion of life force, and karmavipaka, such as being murdered.

One can reasonably assume that aborted human fetuses either lack the merit to take birth in a suitable womb or that their karmavipaka causes them to meet death before they have been born at the hands of abortionist.

After all, karma is unerring, and killing human beings is killing human beings. But it does not stop the police from killing suspects, criminals from killing the police, nor soldiers from shooting each other, etc., all causes and results of karma.

You know what they say: Karma's a bitch.
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Re: The Great Abortion Debate

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Have you ever seen an animal or human, or living being that was a baby that you didn't sense was innocent and kind, and full of Metta? What is this talk of negative karma on them? And those born into hell realms actually aren't "born" in the conventional sense, they don't enter a womb there, they are transferred there by supernatural forces, very often evil ones, because of the bad things they have done to upset the balance of the world. When have you read a Buddhist Sutra and imagined a demon taking birth in a hell realm by means of going through a womb? And of those actually born naturally in wombs, not in hell, Enlightened or not, each and every such child is born as a clean slate, and it is a sin to harm them, just like it is a sin to hurt anyone. There is senseless evil in this world, and those that hurt poor developing infants in wombs with it are the ones going to hell unless they alter their own karmic course, while the children going through such nightmares are incredibly Buddha-like, heavenly, and full of Metta and Love for all beings.
Last edited by Budai on Sat Sep 05, 2020 10:07 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Great Abortion Debate

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Brahma wrote: Sat Sep 05, 2020 9:59 am Have you ever seen an animal or human, or living being that was a baby that you didn't sense was innocent and kind, and full of Metta? What is this talk of negative karma on them? And those born into hell realms actually aren't "born" in the conventional sense, they don't enter a womb there, they are transferred there by supernatural forces, very often evil ones, because of the bad things they have done to upset the balance of the world. When have you read a Buddhist Sutra and imagined a demon taking birth in a hell realm by means of going through a womb? And of those actually born naturally in wombs, not in hell, Enlightened or not, each and every such child is born as a clean slate, and it is a sin to harm them, just like it is a sin to hurt anyone. There is senseless evil in this world, and those that hurt poor developing infants in wombs with it are the ones going to hell unless they alter their own karmic course, while the children going through such nightmares are incredibly Buddha-like, heavenly, and full of Metta and Love for all beings.
None of those arguments concurs with Buddhist teachings, but it’s very poetic.
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Re: The Great Abortion Debate

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Brahma wrote: Sat Sep 05, 2020 9:59 am Have you ever seen an animal or human, or living being that was a baby that you didn't sense was innocent and kind, and full of Metta? What is this talk of negative karma on them? And those born into hell realms actually aren't "born" in the conventional sense, they don't enter a womb there, they are transferred there by supernatural forces, very often evil ones, because of the bad things they have done to upset the balance of the world. When have you read a Buddhist Sutra and imagined a demon taking birth in a hell realm by means of going through a womb? And of those actually born naturally in wombs, not in hell, Enlightened or not, each and every such child is born as a clean slate, and it is a sin to harm them, just like it is a sin to hurt anyone. There is senseless evil in this world, and those that hurt poor developing infants in wombs with it are the ones going to hell unless they alter their own karmic course, while the children going through such nightmares are incredibly Buddha-like, heavenly, and full of Metta and Love for all beings.
Yeah, sorry they are not a clean slate at all. Unless you want to argue that babies born are all born into the same class and every baby has the same opportunities, all are healthy, none die of disease or born with defects.

This is a very romantic view of babies.
“Observing samaya involves to remain inseparable from the union of wisdom and compassion at all times, to sustain mindfulness, and to put into practice the guru’s instructions”. Garchen Rinpoche

For those who do virtuous actions,
goodness is what comes to pass.
For those who do non-virtuous actions,
that becomes suffering indeed.

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Re: The Great Abortion Debate

Post by Budai »

What many have accepted as the Buddhist paradigm of past-life karmic retribution is not at all correct. It has it's roots in ancient pseudo-Hindu misinterpretations of the Vedas, and that wrathful anger people have against wrongdoers that they expect them to be punished for after death because they don't seem to be punished for it in their current life. The punishment is there, but it doesn't carry on the way people who propigate the idea say it does. For example I may feel bad about the things I did in my past life, may have some people who hate me for it in this life, but the process of entering a womb provides that one is born innocent. Any karma accumulated after death would be dealt with by the guilty party before they enter a womb, by Yama and His servants in His abode or wherever He send the guilty party, and anyway, all of the Buddhas and protective Deities are here to help, and no one should be acting on bad karma--they should be acting on Metta. People who think there is any karmic retribution to children in the womb misunderstand reincarnation. Such suffering is evil and comes from senseless hate and ignorance by people who don't have full Maitri for others.

Just because we have different lives doesn't mean we aren't all equal. Babies are clean slates, but the sadness of the situation is that there are some demons who decided to hurt those children, and only the demonic entities of this world cause birth defects, disease, and death in infants, while all the while these children take birth to live out short lives just to grace the world with their Metta.

May all children have long and prosperous lives!
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Re: The Great Abortion Debate

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

“Clean slate” rejects the basic principle of karma.
We’d all be born fully enlightened,
Except that we wouldn’t be, because our parents, being Buddhas, wouldn’t be mating with each other either.
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Re: The Great Abortion Debate

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PadmaVonSamba wrote: Sat Sep 05, 2020 10:08 pm “Clean slate” rejects the basic principle of karma.
We’d all be born fully enlightened,
Except that we wouldn’t be, because our parents, being Buddhas, wouldn’t be mating with each other either.
By clean slate I mean morally innocent. Not necessarily born a Buddha, though many babies are, from being Enlightened in their previous lives. Your karma is not beginingless, and the most basic premise of it comes from your constant interaction with the Saha world. It is possible to be free of karma and not be fully Enlightened, and it is possible to suffer greatly in the womb while being a fully Enlightened Buddha from a past life because of demons that desire to do evil to such a Buddha. It is extremely important to protect all developing infants from any harm.
Last edited by Budai on Sat Sep 05, 2020 10:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Great Abortion Debate

Post by Könchok Thrinley »

Brahma wrote: Sat Sep 05, 2020 9:40 pm What many have accepted as the Buddhist paradigm of past-life karmic retribution is not at all correct. It has it's roots in ancient pseudo-Hindu misinterpretations of the Vedas, and that wrathful anger people have against wrongdoers that they expect them to be punished for after death because they don't seem to be punished for it in their current life. The punishment is there, but it doesn't carry on the way people who propigate the idea say it does. For example I may feel bad about the things I did in my past life, may have some people who hate me for it in this life, but the process of entering a womb provides that one is born innocent. Any karma accumulated after death would be dealt with by the guilty party before they enter a womb, by Yama and His servants in His abode or wherever He send the guilty party, and anyway, all of the Buddhas and protective Deities are here to help, and no one should be acting on bad karma--they should be acting on Metta. People who think there is any karmic retribution to children in the womb misunderstand reincarnation. Such suffering is evil and comes from senseless hate and ignorance by people who don't have full Maitri for others.

Just because we have different lives doesn't mean we aren't all equal. Babies are clean slates, but the sadness of the situation is that there are some demons who decided to hurt those children, and only the demonic entities of this world cause birth defects, disease, and death in infants, while all the while these children take birth to live out short lives just to grace the world with their Metta.

May all children have long and prosperous lives!
Then how do you explain that teachers say that if you do not have karma to suffer you won't suffer. Those "demons" clearly cannot hurt children unless the kids already have the cause to be hurt that way.

If kids are a clean slate why are babies different? You can tell that some babies have slightly different characteristics, be it their body or the way they response. Some babies are more calm some are more easy to upset. You are arguing with your own ezo ideas against dharma.
“Observing samaya involves to remain inseparable from the union of wisdom and compassion at all times, to sustain mindfulness, and to put into practice the guru’s instructions”. Garchen Rinpoche

For those who do virtuous actions,
goodness is what comes to pass.
For those who do non-virtuous actions,
that becomes suffering indeed.

- Arya Sanghata Sutra
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Re: The Great Abortion Debate

Post by tkp67 »

I would be very interested on a citation where the buddha suggests making judgement calls on what could be potentially bad past karma. Especially in regards to decisions regarding ending sentient life.
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