The Great Abortion Debate

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Jingtoo2
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Re: abortion sutra/real or...?

Post by Jingtoo2 »

It would probably be quite a simple matter to discover what scholars say about this sutra, it’s likely date, authorship and so on.
What we need to ask is does it fit the general tone and sentiment that we would expect of Buddhavacana?
Or does it seem to express the view of a particular group?
There is much that modern sociology, psychology and biology add to the debate that simply could not have known to the authors.

So do we accept a purported scripture as revelation? Or do we we it as part of an evolving debate about a complicated issue?
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Minobu
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Re: abortion sutra/real or...?

Post by Minobu »

PadmaVonSamba wrote: Fri Oct 23, 2020 12:00 am Well, it all works out for her in the end.
this is so wrong on so many levels.

this is not some netflix tale.
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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: abortion sutra/real or...?

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

Minobu wrote: Fri Oct 23, 2020 2:20 pm
PadmaVonSamba wrote: Fri Oct 23, 2020 12:00 am Well, it all works out for her in the end.
this is so wrong on so many levels.

this is not some netflix tale.
At that time, the woman Confusion was full of happiness after listening to the Buddha Dharma. Her heart opened up, and became clear and pure. She understood deeply, and had an awakening to the Dharma. With the endowment of the spiritual strength of The Buddha, she rose up to the empty space, and reached a height of seven times the height of a Tor-Lo tree, and sat in meditation peacefully in the empty space."
I don’t watch Netflix. But this is how the story ends, with her hovering high above the tree tops. I didn’t write this sutra, and I’m not the one who posted it to begin with.

Here is the only source I could find for this sutra. There may be other sources of which I am unaware.

http://www.abuddhistlibrary.com/Buddhis ... GEVITY.htm

Is it a reputable source? I Don’t know.
Last edited by PadmaVonSamba on Fri Oct 23, 2020 2:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Minobu
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Re: abortion sutra/real or...?

Post by Minobu »

PadmaVonSamba wrote: Fri Oct 23, 2020 2:33 pm
Minobu wrote: Fri Oct 23, 2020 2:20 pm
PadmaVonSamba wrote: Fri Oct 23, 2020 12:00 am Well, it all works out for her in the end.
this is so wrong on so many levels.

this is not some netflix tale.
At that time, the woman Confusion was full of happiness after listening to the Buddha Dharma. Her heart opened up, and became clear and pure. She understood deeply, and had an awakening to the Dharma. With the endowment of the spiritual strength of The Buddha, she rose up to the empty space, and reached a height of seven times the height of a Tor-Lo tree, and sat in meditation peacefully in the empty space."
I don’t watch Netflix. But this is how the story ends, with her hovering high above the tree tops. I didn’t write this sutra, and I’m not the one who posted it to begin with.

Here is a source for this sutra:
http://www.abuddhistlibrary.com/Buddhis ... GEVITY.htm
i think you been watching too many presidential debates.

Your comment is insensitive .
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SonamTashi
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Re: abortion sutra/real or...?

Post by SonamTashi »

PadmaVonSamba wrote: Fri Oct 23, 2020 2:33 pm
Minobu wrote: Fri Oct 23, 2020 2:20 pm
PadmaVonSamba wrote: Fri Oct 23, 2020 12:00 am Well, it all works out for her in the end.
this is so wrong on so many levels.

this is not some netflix tale.
At that time, the woman Confusion was full of happiness after listening to the Buddha Dharma. Her heart opened up, and became clear and pure. She understood deeply, and had an awakening to the Dharma. With the endowment of the spiritual strength of The Buddha, she rose up to the empty space, and reached a height of seven times the height of a Tor-Lo tree, and sat in meditation peacefully in the empty space."
I don’t watch Netflix. But this is how the story ends, with her hovering high above the tree tops. I didn’t write this sutra, and I’m not the one who posted it to begin with.

Here is the only source I could find for this sutra. There may be other sources of which I am unaware.

http://www.abuddhistlibrary.com/Buddhis ... GEVITY.htm

Is it a reputable source? I Don’t know.
It would appear to come from here. The website is associated with the True Buddha School, a cult. However, their library has authentic sutras, so the authenticity of the sutra could still go either way.
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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: abortion sutra/real or...?

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

SonamTashi wrote: Fri Oct 23, 2020 5:53 pm
PadmaVonSamba wrote: Fri Oct 23, 2020 2:33 pm
Minobu wrote: Fri Oct 23, 2020 2:20 pm
this is so wrong on so many levels.

this is not some netflix tale.
At that time, the woman Confusion was full of happiness after listening to the Buddha Dharma. Her heart opened up, and became clear and pure. She understood deeply, and had an awakening to the Dharma. With the endowment of the spiritual strength of The Buddha, she rose up to the empty space, and reached a height of seven times the height of a Tor-Lo tree, and sat in meditation peacefully in the empty space."
I don’t watch Netflix. But this is how the story ends, with her hovering high above the tree tops. I didn’t write this sutra, and I’m not the one who posted it to begin with.

Here is the only source I could find for this sutra. There may be other sources of which I am unaware.

http://www.abuddhistlibrary.com/Buddhis ... GEVITY.htm

Is it a reputable source? I Don’t know.
It would appear to come from here. The website is associated with the True Buddha School, a cult. However, their library has authentic sutras, so the authenticity of the sutra could still go either way.
That’s precisely why I questioned whether it’s a reliable source. “TBS” is the only source I could find for this text.
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Minobu
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Re: abortion sutra/real or...?

Post by Minobu »

SonamTashi wrote: Fri Oct 23, 2020 5:53 pm
PadmaVonSamba wrote: Fri Oct 23, 2020 2:33 pm
Minobu wrote: Fri Oct 23, 2020 2:20 pm
this is so wrong on so many levels.

this is not some netflix tale.
At that time, the woman Confusion was full of happiness after listening to the Buddha Dharma. Her heart opened up, and became clear and pure. She understood deeply, and had an awakening to the Dharma. With the endowment of the spiritual strength of The Buddha, she rose up to the empty space, and reached a height of seven times the height of a Tor-Lo tree, and sat in meditation peacefully in the empty space."
I don’t watch Netflix. But this is how the story ends, with her hovering high above the tree tops. I didn’t write this sutra, and I’m not the one who posted it to begin with.

Here is the only source I could find for this sutra. There may be other sources of which I am unaware.

http://www.abuddhistlibrary.com/Buddhis ... GEVITY.htm

Is it a reputable source? I Don’t know.
It would appear to come from here. The website is associated with the True Buddha School, a cult. However, their library has authentic sutras, so the authenticity of the sutra could still go either way.
thanks i asked cause it just seems like a propaganda piece...but then does one want to slander mahayana...question yes...but out right denial might not be healthy.
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Johnny Dangerous
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Re: abortion sutra/real or...?

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

I mean, there's a sutra about menstrual blood and how women are punished for producing it.....

Even if it's real, it's on you to decide the veracity really. Personally I don't think it passes the pramana test.
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amanitamusc
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Re: abortion sutra/real or...?

Post by amanitamusc »

Might we move this thread to daily Laugh?
Jingtoo2
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Re: abortion sutra/real or...?

Post by Jingtoo2 »

Johnny Dangerous wrote: Sat Oct 24, 2020 8:21 am I mean, there's a sutra about menstrual blood and how women are punished for producing it.....

Even if it's real, it's on you to decide the veracity really. Personally I don't think it passes the pramana test.
A good point about many sutras of doubtful origin. Do they pass even a basic standard in compassion? Many of them sound like the Old Testament..!
humble.student
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Re: abortion sutra/real or...?

Post by humble.student »

It's a real text, in that it is not the product of the aforementioned "school." A proper link to the extant Chinese version is here: http://buddhism.lib.ntu.edu.tw/FULLTEXT ... 1n0017.pdf
One will note it is one of 2 texts attributed to the translator-monk Buddhapāli /Fotuoboli, and by Ven. Yinshun, no less. The traditional Chinese Buddhist catalogues include it in the list of doubtful and apocryphal sutras. (The other text attributed to him is the Usnisa Vijaya dharani.) I have not seen a proper English translation of this text and haven't read everything to see if it fits the original, but at a glance, it does.
Jingtoo2
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Re: The Great Abortion Debate

Post by Jingtoo2 »

Even if authentic in that sense it is still doubtful in tone. It reads like the product of a conservative mindset rather than the shaper of a conservative mindset.
tkp67
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Re: The Great Abortion Debate

Post by tkp67 »

A few things come to mind.

These writings were crafted for a purpose. Some are more "timeless" than others. That is they speak universally of nature and less particularly to the zeitgeist of the times. In the Lotus the buddha declares that he speaks from various perspectives to accommodate others.

Personally I find that those speaking to the mindset of a particular time are very useful when read in that context. I can also understand how they can be seen as potentially offensive outside of that context.

It does seem at times parables/stories were used to illustrate a point so it might be useful to keep in mind that this might have been simply an example of culturally relative skillful purposing.

Read sequentially it could be determined that even after doing such a harmful thing the buddha wisdom and buddha nature still exist and are still worth searching for even if it seems beyond one's capacity to understand it as such.
Jingtoo2
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Re: The Great Abortion Debate

Post by Jingtoo2 »

Which begs the question.
Can a view which is typical of thinking at a specific time and place ever be the eternal Dharma of The Buddhas?
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Minobu
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Re: abortion sutra/real or...?

Post by Minobu »

amanitamusc wrote: Sat Oct 24, 2020 9:00 am Might we move this thread to daily Laugh?
A woman's right to have an abortion is being challenged .

This sutra popped up on my screen.

It obviously is anti abortion and described the hell for those that have one.

I would think it appropriate to find out the source if it is not really real...

the effect of reading this for a young woman torn to have an abortion . Maybe she was raped by her father and just does not think it a good idea to bring this situation to life.

Can you imagine her grief and desperation on the matter..

thats just one instance i'm sure has happened too many times .

then there are a myriad of life challenging moments for some young girl to take on...

so for you to think that this thread is humorous i find appaling .

where is there humour in this ?
tkp67
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Re: The Great Abortion Debate

Post by tkp67 »

Jingtoo2 wrote: Sat Oct 24, 2020 3:06 pm Which begs the question.
Can a view which is typical of thinking at a specific time and place ever be the eternal Dharma of The Buddhas?
I don't believe specific dharma teachings are meant to me treated as the wonderful law itself. Rather specific teachings appear in accordance to the people, the time, their capacity, their causes and their conditions.

Much like how languages changes as humanity continues. Regardless of continuous changes the underlying purpose and those it serves is the same.

Just my thoughts on the matter.
Jingtoo2
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Re: The Great Abortion Debate

Post by Jingtoo2 »

Well it’s an interesting perspective, but I have been taught that the Dharma is as it is irrespective of capacity, causes, and conditions. Rather than being adapted to the subjective experience Buddhadharma undermines them.
amanitamusc
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Re: abortion sutra/real or...?

Post by amanitamusc »

Minobu wrote: Sat Oct 24, 2020 6:05 pm
amanitamusc wrote: Sat Oct 24, 2020 9:00 am Might we move this thread to daily Laugh?
A woman's right to have an abortion is being challenged .

This sutra popped up on my screen.

It obviously is anti abortion and described the hell for those that have one.

I would think it appropriate to find out the source if it is not really real...

the effect of reading this for a young woman torn to have an abortion . Maybe she was raped by her father and just does not think it a good idea to bring this situation to life.

Can you imagine her grief and desperation on the matter..

thats just one instance i'm sure has happened too many times .

then there are a myriad of life challenging moments for some young girl to take on...

so for you to think that this thread is humorous i find appaling .

where is there humour in this ?
I was referring to the thread progression on fake and or ridiculous sutra's in general.Not abortion in particular.
I should have suggested a thread split.
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Brunelleschi
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Re: The Great Abortion Debate

Post by Brunelleschi »

tkp67 wrote: Sat Oct 24, 2020 8:37 pm
Jingtoo2 wrote: Sat Oct 24, 2020 3:06 pm Which begs the question.
Can a view which is typical of thinking at a specific time and place ever be the eternal Dharma of The Buddhas?
I don't believe specific dharma teachings are meant to me treated as the wonderful law itself. Rather specific teachings appear in accordance to the people, the time, their capacity, their causes and their conditions.

Much like how languages changes as humanity continues. Regardless of continuous changes the underlying purpose and those it serves is the same.

Just my thoughts on the matter.
That is a good point - and sometimes cruicial. However, I'm worried it creates all kinds of problems if individuals start rejecting Sutras left and right because they don't agree with some of its content. Suddenly it becomes "tkp67:ism" and "Brunelleschi:ism", not Buddhism. What's your view on this?

Talking more about the principle - not this specific teaching.
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Minobu
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Re: The Great Abortion Debate

Post by Minobu »

:good:
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