Inner circles and cults

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Knotty Veneer
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Inner circles and cults

Post by Knotty Veneer »

It's always said that one should look long and hard at a teacher before committing to be a student - especially in the Vajrayana. You need to know that the teacher is the real deal. Doing that can take time and getting the required access can be difficult.

I think there are relatively few cult leaders who cynically set out to create an organization to fleece/abuse students (L. Ron Hubbard is the most famous example if this type I think). More commonly, I reckon, teachers set out with good intentions but surround themselves with yes men, get corrupted by the adulation and end up believing their own publicity.

Newbies and those in the outer circle of a Dharma organization usually rely on the "senior students" to know how to relate to the guru, and it's from them they usually receive they stories and lore of the great man's prowess. It's to the members of the inner circle that members look to explain any bizarre behavior on the part of the guru. And it's to the senior students that the abused first turn to for help.

The problem is that the inner circle are the last people who can or will help in a cult situation. They are often so deeply invested that they struggle more than anyone else to see what is really happening and have the greatest resistance to the truth because of their guilt at their own naivety or complicity. It can be their behavior that poisons the group. Their acquiescence that allows the teacher to think they are something they are not.

So who can you turn to if you think you are in a cult? Well, inside the cult, it's difficult to know, but careful examination of the inner circle is just as critical as examining the guru. They are the gatekeepers and the conduit to the teacher, and frequently, the main practical source of the teachings.
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Kurp
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Re: Inner circles and cults

Post by Kurp »

Knotty Veneer wrote: Sun Oct 10, 2021 9:51 am They are the gatekeepers and the conduit to the teacher, and frequently, the main practical source of the teachings.
Sometime problematic gatekeeping doesn’t even involve a cult. Sometimes the teacher is fantastic but a few bad students slip through the cracks. Sometimes power corrupts and then it’s too late and it’s out of the teacher’s hands at that point. The teachers have done all they could do. Teachers do not babysit their students forever, especially when the students get to a certain level.

Therefore, if some of the senior students/gatekeepers abuse their power and use concepts like “samaya”and “karma” to turn a blind eye to the infractions of others in the community, or worse yet, twist the teachings (ie like “milarepa and marpa”) to fit a sadistic, abusive agenda of harming other students they personally judge/do not like/ find unworthy for whatever reason, well, it really makes you wonder about the whole “you have to have bodhicitta” thing. We should want all beings to be liberated, no? Then why judge struggling students in such an unfair manner and not even allow them to get their foot in the door?

Sure, bad teachers make you question the teacher. But bad senior students make you question everything.
Last edited by Kurp on Sun Oct 10, 2021 10:55 am, edited 4 times in total.
zerwe
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Re: Inner circles and cults

Post by zerwe »

Knotty Veneer wrote: Sun Oct 10, 2021 9:51 am It's always said that one should look long and hard at a teacher before committing to be a student - especially in the Vajrayana. You need to know that the teacher is the real deal. Doing that can take time and getting the required access can be difficult.

I think there are relatively few cult leaders who cynically set out to create an organization to fleece/abuse students (L. Ron Hubbard is the most famous example if this type I think). More commonly, I reckon, teachers set out with good intentions but surround themselves with yes men, get corrupted by the adulation and end up believing their own publicity.

Newbies and those in the outer circle of a Dharma organization usually rely on the "senior students" to know how to relate to the guru, and it's from them they usually receive they stories and lore of the great man's prowess. It's to the members of the inner circle that members look to explain any bizarre behavior on the part of the guru. And it's to the senior students that the abused first turn to for help.

The problem is that the inner circle are the last people who can or will help in a cult situation. They are often so deeply invested that they struggle more than anyone else to see what is really happening and have the greatest resistance to the truth because of their guilt at their own naivety or complicity. It can be their behavior that poisons the group. Their acquiescence that allows the teacher to think they are something they are not.

So who can you turn to if you think you are in a cult? Well, inside the cult, it's difficult to know, but careful examination of the inner circle is just as critical as examining the guru. They are the gatekeepers and the conduit to the teacher, and frequently, the main practical source of the teachings.
Not sure if, in the situation you are describing, one would have have access to an objective but authoritative resource on the outside of said organization. The only example I can throw out there is that I would try to find someone like a Geshe or Khenpo, not invested in the said organization, who could provide advice if someone believed themselves to be in a bad situation. They might be part of the larger school or lineage in the sense of being Gelug, Kagyu, etc..., but part of a subschool to which you do not belong.

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Sādhaka
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Re: Inner circles and cults

Post by Sādhaka »

They’re a part of life that will never go away.

Just hope that if you ever end up getting involved with any of them, that you’re dealing with ‘the white hats’; who are seemingly very few and far between these days.
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Re: Inner circles and cults

Post by muni »

Such inner circles like you call it are in all kind, making smaller groups who are then supporting each other as for example " our sangha and the rest not".

By Buddha's teachings, there are not such boundaries ( Bodhichitta), Mind is embracing/including All, Naturally.

A crystal takes on the color of the cloth upon which it is placed, whether white, yellow, red or black. Likwise, the people with whom you spend your time whether their influence is good or bad, will make a huge difference to the direction your life and practice take.
Spending your time with true spiritual friends will fill you with love for all beings and help you to see how negative attachment and hatred are.
Being with such friends, and following their example, will naturally imbue you with their good qualities, just as all the birds flying around a golden mountain are bathed in its golden radiance.
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Queequeg
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Re: Inner circles and cults

Post by Queequeg »

Before the Buddha awoke, he had a dream that maggots were climbing up his legs. This was interpreted to mean that he would have many white clothed lay people following him. He later worried that acquiring students would be tiring and vexing, and what he really wanted to do was go wander up into the mountains.

I can't imagine having maggots climb up your legs could ever be a desired thing. The Buddha tolerated us out of compassion for us. I can't imagine a teacher who actually wants to accumulate students. Seems exhausting. Taking on the responsibility of trying to get people to get Dharama? Smart people who really want to get Dharma have a hard time with it. How about all the people who come with all manner of idol worship, fanaticism, attachment, dependence... projecting all kinds of wants and needs.

The real teachers who take on students with correct intention and open eyes are truly great beings. The others have to be questioned for their sanity and intentions.

As for what to do if you find yourself in a creepy culty situation? Get some space. Take time to evaluate. And be ready to make a break if necessary. Of course there is going to be that tug in your mind that you're going to lose connection to something special... if its real, then taking time away, getting space to evaluate will not be in vain, but maybe reset expectations on how to approach and benefit from the teacher.

If the inner circle is messed up, then that probably says something about the center of gravity. If the students are exemplary, then that is a good sign the teacher is the real deal, too. Birds of a feather and all that.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
tingdzin
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Re: Inner circles and cults

Post by tingdzin »

Queequeg wrote: Mon Oct 11, 2021 1:48 pm efore the Buddha awoke, he had a dream that maggots were climbing up his legs. This was interpreted to mean that he would have many white clothed lay people following him. He later worried that acquiring students would be tiring and vexing, and what he really wanted to do was go wander up into the mountains.
Let's not forget to source our "Buddha said" or Buddha dreamed" stuff.

Otherwise, some very good comments for beginners here..
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Re: Inner circles and cults

Post by Queequeg »

tingdzin wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 10:45 am
Queequeg wrote: Mon Oct 11, 2021 1:48 pm efore the Buddha awoke, he had a dream that maggots were climbing up his legs. This was interpreted to mean that he would have many white clothed lay people following him. He later worried that acquiring students would be tiring and vexing, and what he really wanted to do was go wander up into the mountains.
Let's not forget to source our "Buddha said" or Buddha dreamed" stuff.

Otherwise, some very good comments for beginners here..
Supina Sutta: Dreams
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
"When the Tathagata — worthy & rightly self-awakened — was still just an unawakened bodhisatta, five great dreams appeared to him. Which five?

"When the Tathagata — worthy & rightly self-awakened — was still just an unawakened bodhisatta, this great earth was his great bed. The Himalayas, king of mountains, was his pillow. His left hand rested in the eastern sea, his right hand in the western sea, and both feet in the southern sea. When the Tathagata — worthy & rightly self-awakened — was still just an unawakened bodhisatta, this was the first great dream that appeared to him.

"Furthermore, when the Tathagata — worthy & rightly self-awakened — was still just an unawakened bodhisatta, a woody vine growing out of his navel stood reaching to the sky. When the Tathagata — worthy & rightly self-awakened — was still just an unawakened bodhisatta, this was the second great dream that appeared to him.

"Furthermore, when the Tathagata — worthy & rightly self-awakened — was still just an unawakened bodhisatta, white worms with black heads crawling up from his feet covered him as far as his knees. When the Tathagata — worthy & rightly self-awakened — was still just an unawakened bodhisatta, this was the third great dream that appeared to him.

"Furthermore, when the Tathagata — worthy & rightly self-awakened — was still just an unawakened bodhisatta, four different-colored birds coming from the four directions fell at his feet and turned entirely white. When the Tathagata — worthy & rightly self-awakened — was still just an unawakened bodhisatta, this was the fourth great dream that appeared to him.

"Furthermore, when the Tathagata — worthy & rightly self-awakened — was still just an unawakened bodhisatta, he walked back & forth on top of a giant mountain of excrement but was not soiled by the excrement. When the Tathagata — worthy & rightly self-awakened — was still just an unawakened bodhisatta, this was the fifth great dream that appeared to him.

"Now, when the Tathagata — worthy & rightly self-awakened — was still just an unawakened bodhisatta, and this great earth was his great bed, the Himalayas, king of mountains, was his pillow, his left hand rested in the eastern sea, his right hand in the western sea, and both feet in the southern sea: this first great dream appeared to let him know that he would awaken to the unexcelled right self-awakening.

"When the Tathagata — worthy & rightly self-awakened — was still just an unawakened bodhisatta, and a woody vine growing out of his navel stood reaching to the sky: this second great dream appeared to let him know that when he had awakened to the noble eightfold path, he would proclaim it well as far as there are human & celestial beings.

"When the Tathagata — worthy & rightly self-awakened — was still just an unawakened bodhisatta, and white worms with black heads crawling up from his feet covered him as far as his knees: this third great dream appeared to let him know that many white-clothed householders would go for life-long refuge to the Tathagata.

"When the Tathagata — worthy & rightly self-awakened — was still just an unawakened bodhisatta, and four different-colored birds coming from the four directions fell at his feet and turned entirely white: this fourth great dream appeared to let him know that people from the four castes — brahmans, noble-warriors, merchants, and laborers — having gone forth from the home life into homelessness in the Dhamma & Vinaya taught by the Tathagata, would realize unexcelled release.

"When the Tathagata — worthy & rightly self-awakened — was still just an unawakened bodhisatta, and he walked back & forth on top of a giant mountain of excrement but was not soiled by the excrement: this fifth great dream appeared to let him know that the Tathagata would receive gifts of robes, alms food, lodgings, & medicinal requisites to cure the sick, but he would use them unattached to them, uninfatuated, guiltless, seeing the drawbacks [of attachment to them], and discerning the escape from them.

"When the Tathagata — worthy & rightly self-awakened — was still just an unawakened bodhisatta, these five great dreams appeared to him."
Last edited by Queequeg on Mon Oct 18, 2021 1:21 pm, edited 3 times in total.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
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Queequeg
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Re: Inner circles and cults

Post by Queequeg »

Majjima Nikaya 26

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
"Then the thought occurred to me, 'This Dhamma that I have attained is deep, hard to see, hard to realize, peaceful, refined, beyond the scope of conjecture, subtle, to-be-experienced by the wise. But this generation delights in attachment, is excited by attachment, enjoys attachment. For a generation delighting in attachment, excited by attachment, enjoying attachment, this/that conditionality & dependent co-arising are hard to see. This state, too, is hard to see: the resolution of all fabrications, the relinquishment of all acquisitions, the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding. And if I were to teach the Dhamma and others would not understand me, that would be tiresome for me, troublesome for me.'

"Just then these verses, unspoken in the past, unheard before, occurred to me:


'Enough now with teaching
what
only with difficulty
I reached.
This Dhamma is not easily realized
by those overcome
with aversion & passion.

What is abstruse, subtle,
deep,
hard to see,
going against the flow —
those delighting in passion,
cloaked in the mass of darkness,
won't see.'
"As I reflected thus, my mind inclined to dwelling at ease, not to teaching the Dhamma.

"Then Brahma Sahampati, having known with his own awareness the line of thinking in my awareness, thought: 'The world is lost! The world is destroyed! The mind of the Tathagata, the Arahant, the Rightly Self-awakened One inclines to dwelling at ease, not to teaching the Dhamma!' Then, just as a strong man might extend his flexed arm or flex his extended arm, Brahma Sahampati disappeared from the Brahma-world and reappeared in front of me. Arranging his upper robe over one shoulder, he knelt down with his right knee on the ground, saluted me with his hands before his heart, and said to me: 'Lord, let the Blessed One teach the Dhamma! Let the One-Well-Gone teach the Dhamma! There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma.'

"That is what Brahma Sahampati said. Having said that, he further said this:


'In the past
there appeared among the Magadhans
an impure Dhamma
devised by the stained.
Throw open the door to the Deathless!
Let them hear the Dhamma
realized by the Stainless One!

Just as one standing on a rocky crag
might see people
all around below,
So, O wise
one, with all-around vision,
ascend the palace
fashioned of Dhamma.
Free from sorrow, behold the people
submerged in sorrow,
oppressed by birth & aging.

Rise up, hero, victor in battle!
O Teacher, wander without debt in the world.
Teach the Dhamma, O Blessed One:
There will be those who will understand.'
"Then, having understood Brahma's invitation, out of compassion for beings, I surveyed the world with the eye of an Awakened One. As I did so, I saw beings with little dust in their eyes and those with much, those with keen faculties and those with dull, those with good attributes and those with bad, those easy to teach and those hard, some of them seeing disgrace & danger in the other world. Just as in a pond of blue or red or white lotuses, some lotuses — born & growing in the water — might flourish while immersed in the water, without rising up from the water; some might stand at an even level with the water; while some might rise up from the water and stand without being smeared by the water — so too, surveying the world with the eye of an Awakened One, I saw beings with little dust in their eyes and those with much, those with keen faculties and those with dull, those with good attributes and those with bad, those easy to teach and those hard, some of them seeing disgrace & danger in the other world.

"Having seen this, I answered Brahma Sahampati in verse:


'Open are the doors to the Deathless
to those with ears.
Let them show their conviction.
Perceiving trouble, O Brahma,
I did not tell people
the refined,
sublime Dhamma.'
"Then Brahma Sahampati, thinking, 'The Blessed One has given his consent to teach the Dhamma,' bowed down to me and, circling me on the right, disappeared right there.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
tingdzin
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Re: Inner circles and cults

Post by tingdzin »

Ah, OK. He was still an unenlightened bodhisattva at that point. Thanks for clearing that up.
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Re: Inner circles and cults

Post by [email protected] »

Thanks for raising this topic. Last year I read 'Fallout, recovering from abuse in Tibetan Buddhism' by Tahlia Newland. The author had been in the Rigpa organisation for 20 years before becoming aware of what was going on behind closed doors. I think this book could help those on the Buddhist path to understand what can go wrong and not be dismissive of those who have been used and abused.
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Re: Inner circles and cults

Post by nyonchung »

[email protected] wrote: Sat Nov 06, 2021 7:30 pm Thanks for raising this topic. Last year I read 'Fallout, recovering from abuse in Tibetan Buddhism' by Tahlia Newland. The author had been in the Rigpa organisation for 20 years before becoming aware of what was going on behind closed doors. I think this book could help those on the Buddhist path to understand what can go wrong and not be dismissive of those who have been used and abused.
20 years! OMG, so fast, and now lecturing about it - one French guy - former Sogyal"s translator (English to French) - doing same after 20 years or so profiteering of the system, now still profits by denouncing it and started his own groups ... to teach "pure Dharma", while saying that the only teachings he ever received were from Sogyal (and in English) ...

Rigpa is a relatively large organisation, by European standard at least, and ofen, Dharma groups are relatively small, attract confused people, and are a fertile ground for cultic behaviour initiated, more than often, by members in a desperate search of a guru ... (or what they imagine a Guru is)
That was the case in the mid 80's for France (and a few Rigpa people can be included, I met some who dropped at that time).
20 years?
"Me and the sky don't hold views - Me and the river have no fixed practice
Me and the madman don't have a guide- Me and the rainbow have no experiences
Me, the sun and the moon have no certitudes - Me and the jewel bear no fruit" - Dampa Sanggyé as quoted by Domar Mingyur Dorjé (born 1675)
tingdzin
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Re: Inner circles and cults

Post by tingdzin »

nyonchung wrote: Mon Dec 06, 2021 11:57 pm 20 years! OMG, so fast, and now lecturing about it - one French guy - former Sogyal"s translator (English to French) - doing same after 20 years or so profiteering of the system, now still profits by denouncing it and started his own groups ... to teach "pure Dharma", while saying that the only teachings he ever received were from Sogyal (and in English) ...
:( There is a certain sort of person, as common in Dharma circles as elsewhere, who gets involved in an organization because they spot a trend and want to get in on the ground floor. They then do everything they can to become part of the inner circle, motivated as much by concerns about personal aggrandizement as by the goals of the organization. Having succeeded in gaining influence, they then try to remake the organization in their own image, turning it to their own ends and often profiting from it, and if they fail, they turn against the organization and try to destroy it from the inside. Sounds like the person you refer to (I don't know him or her) has taken it a step further. How degraded, but most people who have not spent years around Dharma centers will not realize what's going on.

It's all very sad.
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Re: Inner circles and cults

Post by Malcolm »

nyonchung wrote: Mon Dec 06, 2021 11:57 pm years! OMG, so fast, and now lecturing about it - one French guy - former Sogyal"s translator (English to French) - doing same after 20 years or so profiteering of the system, now still profits by denouncing it and started his own groups ... to teach "pure Dharma", while saying that the only teachings he ever received were from Sogyal (and in English) ...
That is seriously distorted, whatever one thinks of Sogyal.
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nyonchung
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Re: Inner circles and cults

Post by nyonchung »

Malcolm wrote: Wed Dec 08, 2021 7:20 pm
nyonchung wrote: Mon Dec 06, 2021 11:57 pm years! OMG, so fast, and now lecturing about it - one French guy - former Sogyal"s translator (English to French) - doing same after 20 years or so profiteering of the system, now still profits by denouncing it and started his own groups ... to teach "pure Dharma", while saying that the only teachings he ever received were from Sogyal (and in English) ...
That is seriously distorted, whatever one thinks of Sogyal.
I personaly have no opinion, never attented teachings by Sogyal himself, went to Rigpa I think twice, once for Kalu Rinpoché and once for Dzongsar Khyentsé (first visit in France 35 years back or so...) I knew some Rigpa staff that left around that time (internecine feuds), an opportunity Philippe Cornu who had contacts with them (but I think was more a follower of the Chögyel), an excellent scholar in things Tibetan, but with also a wide Western erudition (a rare thing in the then French Dharma scene), you could spend hours listening to him, brilliant

As for France, I don't think ther was any formal case started against Sogyal - and French criminal law is as think much stricter than the US one, and police possibly more reactive ... I found some peoples' reaction pretty strange, specially this guy who showed up in magazines, TV, just to start his own Dharma business after disparaging his own teacher - well if there was anything wrong, he was so high up in the organization and close to Sogyal, must haved noticed something in 20 years or so, no?
As you say - whatever one may think about Sogyal

A certain German site loves this stuff
"Me and the sky don't hold views - Me and the river have no fixed practice
Me and the madman don't have a guide- Me and the rainbow have no experiences
Me, the sun and the moon have no certitudes - Me and the jewel bear no fruit" - Dampa Sanggyé as quoted by Domar Mingyur Dorjé (born 1675)
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Re: Inner circles and cults

Post by Malcolm »

nyonchung wrote: Wed Dec 08, 2021 7:54 pm
As for France, I don't think ther was any formal case started against Sogyal - and French criminal law is as think much stricter than the US one, and police possibly more reactive ... I found some peoples' reaction pretty strange, specially this guy who showed up in magazines, TV, just to start his own Dharma business after disparaging his own teacher - well if there was anything wrong, he was so high up in the organization and close to Sogyal, must haved noticed something in 20 years or so, no?
Sogyal may have been a bully, a sybarite, and corrupt, but to his credit, he did introduce literally thousands of people to very qualified teachers, like Khenpo Namdrol. Much the same could be said of Trungpa.
A certain German site loves this stuff
Well, that guy escaped from the Scientology of Buddhism, aka NKT.
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nyonchung
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Re: Inner circles and cults

Post by nyonchung »

Malcolm wrote: Wed Dec 08, 2021 8:07 pm
nyonchung wrote: Wed Dec 08, 2021 7:54 pm
As for France, I don't think ther was any formal case started against Sogyal - and French criminal law is as think much stricter than the US one, and police possibly more reactive ... I found some peoples' reaction pretty strange, specially this guy who showed up in magazines, TV, just to start his own Dharma business after disparaging his own teacher - well if there was anything wrong, he was so high up in the organization and close to Sogyal, must haved noticed something in 20 years or so, no?
Sogyal may have been a bully, a sybarite, and corrupt, but to his credit, he did introduce literally thousands of people to very qualified teachers, like Khenpo Namdrol. Much the same could be said of Trungpa.
A certain German site loves this stuff
Well, that guy escaped from the Scientology of Buddhism, aka NKT.
I will tend to say something equivalent about Sogyal, he at least had the merit to invite many lamas in France in a quite non-sectarian way
including major teachers like Nyoshül Khen Rinpoché
"Me and the sky don't hold views - Me and the river have no fixed practice
Me and the madman don't have a guide- Me and the rainbow have no experiences
Me, the sun and the moon have no certitudes - Me and the jewel bear no fruit" - Dampa Sanggyé as quoted by Domar Mingyur Dorjé (born 1675)
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Re: Inner circles and cults

Post by nyonchung »

Malcolm wrote: Wed Dec 08, 2021 8:07 pm
Sogyal may have been a bully, a sybarite, and corrupt, but to his credit, he did introduce literally thousands of people to very qualified teachers, like Khenpo Namdrol. Much the same could be said of Trungpa.
A certain German site loves this stuff
Well, that guy escaped from the Scientology of Buddhism, aka NKT.
An argument is that this was a sort of policy by Sogyal in order to hide etc ... some people have incredible mind-reading power !... but the escapee you mention was happy (on his own acception) to find Rigpa Germany to help him for OTD's visit in Germany, a visit he was not able to handle. Now OTD problem he has (full pages of it). Other funny story is the Ogyen Kunzang Choling case (that guy was known as a crackpot into underage girls and since the mid 1985,BTW) so, when the story started to come out so slowly (Belgium has visibly a problem with pedophiles), our repenting NKTist gave a platform to the survivors (theirs is really a sad story) and asked them to send details to publish but forgot to mention that a close associate of Ringu Tulku (our ex-NKTist was close to him them) was a lady close to the team defending the accused in OKC case - herself a lawyer and at a time included in team that defended - precisely - Scientology.
So the accused teams got a lot of useful details this way ... and used them in court (the case was once repealed)
A friend of mine mentioned me this strange relationship, I tried to contact the plaintiff's association to have them stopping providing elements to their own adversary, but their little website was no more operating.
The defense team also maneuvered skilfully (possibly by pressuring some of the plaintiffs) to avoid a court case in France (where penalties are definitely harsher - and the judicial system much more proactive in such case).

Just rechecking, after appeal, the accused, Robert Spatz got only a 5 years suspended sentence last week after a 23 years-long case.
https://bx1.be/categories/news/le-gouro ... ec-sursis/

Menwhile, Khandro Rinpoché accepted to visit in 2016 the French center of OKC - I think she was not properly informed and that some well-placed people preempted the attempt by the plaintiffs' association to contact her.
"Me and the sky don't hold views - Me and the river have no fixed practice
Me and the madman don't have a guide- Me and the rainbow have no experiences
Me, the sun and the moon have no certitudes - Me and the jewel bear no fruit" - Dampa Sanggyé as quoted by Domar Mingyur Dorjé (born 1675)
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Re: Inner circles and cults

Post by gelukman »

I think we need to start some where. So I try to not label them cults or sects.
But if some one are lying about "lineage" and inventing own.
I tend to warn by saying frankly.

Otherwise sexual abuses, collecting donations, misusing nuns,
bowing to dubious characters etc all belong to the paid religious show.
Maybe I cannot even leave it, as frankly I enjoy it :rolling:



Some of them want to use you
Some of them want to get used by you
Some of them want to abuse you
Some of them want to be abused


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