The Great Abortion Debate

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Sādhaka
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Re: The Great Abortion Debate

Post by Sādhaka »

SilenceMonkey wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 5:53 am I was just reading in "Perfect Conduct" about the root downfall of killing. Dudjom Rinpoche says killing involves killing a human being, which includes an unborn fetus.

I was a bit surprised when I read this, having come from a modern education. I understand the in depth arguments made earlier in this thread, but I thought it was interesting that such a being as Dudjom Rinpoche said this.
It’s not surprising that most Lama’s don’t see things in a way that aligns with contemporary western politically correct sensibilities.

I mean there’s the issue of displaying skillful means, so that westerners don’t abandon the Dharma; but at the same time, a line has to be drawn somewhere too sometimes, ya know?
Malcolm
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Re: The Great Abortion Debate

Post by Malcolm »

Sādhaka wrote: Tue May 11, 2021 4:34 pm
SilenceMonkey wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 5:53 am I was just reading in "Perfect Conduct" about the root downfall of killing. Dudjom Rinpoche says killing involves killing a human being, which includes an unborn fetus.

I was a bit surprised when I read this, having come from a modern education. I understand the in depth arguments made earlier in this thread, but I thought it was interesting that such a being as Dudjom Rinpoche said this.
It’s not surprising that most Lama’s don’t see things in a way that aligns with contemporary western politically correct sensibilities.
Most Lamas don't have to worry about abortions, unless they impregnate a women by accident and want to cover it up (and this happens...I know of several instances). So as usual, religious leaders tell their flock one thing, and do the opposite when it is poses inconveniences for themselves.

And this, more than than anything else, is why a women's choice is more important than the opinions of men. As a libertarian, you should be down with that, not complaining about "political correctness."
"Conceptuality is great ignorance,
causing one to fall into the ocean of samsāra."
—Māyājālamahātantra
Sādhaka
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Re: The Great Abortion Debate

Post by Sādhaka »

I’m not a full-on libertarian (lol I made a mistake typing “libertarian”, and it got autocorrected to: not a full-on “lover statism” how’s that for some irony); it is just that a lot of it resonates with me, especially in today’s ever-increasingly-authoritarian world.

Anyhow, I wasn’t referring to only abortion specifically; but was also speaking more generally.
Malcolm
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Re: The Great Abortion Debate

Post by Malcolm »

Sādhaka wrote: Tue May 11, 2021 5:42 pm It is just that a lot of it resonates with me, especially in today’s ever-increasingly-authoritarian world.
There is nothing more authoritarian than the state determining for women what they can and cannot do with their bodies.

Generally speaking, people who oppose so-called "political correctness" are generally the ones who elevate authoritarians into power. So you might want to re-evaluate your admiration for monarchist lamas.
"Conceptuality is great ignorance,
causing one to fall into the ocean of samsāra."
—Māyājālamahātantra
muni
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Re: The Great Abortion Debate

Post by muni »

Since it is been said more women should talk here..

The long term of the quality of life needs attention. Many opinions and laws have already caused enough suffering.

What law thinks on the suffering of an unwanted child, not getting any compassion, no any love and so difficult to know to give it then as well? Or a mom alone, even not able to feed herself, or a mom with a sever mental problem, or a genetic disease causing lots of suffering and some other cases. Instead of listening to laws, the welfare of the eventually child is important.

Therefore I find a general law is not okay, because each case is different.

In some cases giving the little for adoption would be an option.

Life is precious, give it value, able to practise, give it the necessary care, the needful affection.

"Love and compassion are necessities, not luxuries. Without them humanity cannot survive."
All appearances are understood as being dharmakaya. We perceive everything in its natural purity, and there is nothing we can call impure.

“Within the sky-like empty mind, habitual tendencies and disturbing emotions are just like clouds and mist. When they appear, they appear within the expanse of empty mind. When they remain, they remain within the expanse of empty mind. And when they dissolve, they dissolve in that same expanse of empty mind.” Guru Rinpoche
Malcolm
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Re: The Great Abortion Debate

Post by Malcolm »

muni wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 8:15 am Since it is been said more women should talk here..

The long term of the quality of life needs attention. Many opinions and laws have already caused enough suffering.

What law thinks on the suffering of an unwanted child, not getting any compassion, no any love and so difficult to know to give it then as well? Or a mom alone, even not able to feed herself, or a mom with a sever mental problem, or a genetic disease causing lots of suffering and some other cases. Instead of listening to laws, the welfare of the eventually child is important.

Therefore I find a general law is not okay, because each case is different.

In some cases giving the little for adoption would be an option.

Life is precious, give it value, able to practise, give it the necessary care, the needful affection.

"Love and compassion are necessities, not luxuries. Without them humanity cannot survive."
In a secular society, which we live in, we should not be enforcing what are essentially religious views. If you are against abortion, then don’t have one. But please do not advocate that other women who have unwanted pregnancies should be forced to bring them to term against their will. That’s also suffering.
"Conceptuality is great ignorance,
causing one to fall into the ocean of samsāra."
—Māyājālamahātantra
muni
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Re: The Great Abortion Debate

Post by muni »

Malcolm wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 2:05 pm
muni wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 8:15 am Since it is been said more women should talk here..

The long term of the quality of life needs attention. Many opinions and laws have already caused enough suffering.

What law thinks on the suffering of an unwanted child, not getting any compassion, no any love and so difficult to know to give it then as well? Or a mom alone, even not able to feed herself, or a mom with a sever mental problem, or a genetic disease causing lots of suffering and some other cases. Instead of listening to laws, the welfare of the eventually child is important.

Therefore I find a general law is not okay, because each case is different.

In some cases giving the little for adoption would be an option.

Life is precious, give it value, able to practise, give it the necessary care, the needful affection.

"Love and compassion are necessities, not luxuries. Without them humanity cannot survive."
In a secular society, which we live in, we should not be enforcing what are essentially religious views. If you are against abortion, then don’t have one. But please do not advocate that other women who have unwanted pregnancies should be forced to bring them to term against their will. That’s also suffering.
I against abortion? Against unnecessary suffering!

When the mom cannot take care due to different reasons, this could result in an unwanted child. This is one of the examples I gave. My focus is on "not causing suffering". Whether abortion or not depends on this, karma.

Your focus seems to be on women only and there it stops. Men! Always the same.

"The Dalai Lama has said that abortion is "negative," but there are exceptions. He said, "I think abortion should be approved or disapproved according to each circumstance."
All appearances are understood as being dharmakaya. We perceive everything in its natural purity, and there is nothing we can call impure.

“Within the sky-like empty mind, habitual tendencies and disturbing emotions are just like clouds and mist. When they appear, they appear within the expanse of empty mind. When they remain, they remain within the expanse of empty mind. And when they dissolve, they dissolve in that same expanse of empty mind.” Guru Rinpoche
Malcolm
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Re: The Great Abortion Debate

Post by Malcolm »

muni wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 3:00 pm "The Dalai Lama has said that abortion is "negative," but there are exceptions. He said, "I think abortion should be approved or disapproved according to each circumstance."
And in order for that to occur, women must have the absolute right to choose for themselves whether it is appropriate to end an unwanted pregnancy.
"Conceptuality is great ignorance,
causing one to fall into the ocean of samsāra."
—Māyājālamahātantra
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Könchok Thrinley
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Re: The Great Abortion Debate

Post by Könchok Thrinley »

Riddle me this. Those that oppose abortions, what else would you do except for banning them? Do you plan to work with the causes that lead there?
“Observing samaya involves to remain inseparable from the union of wisdom and compassion at all times, to sustain mindfulness, and to put into practice the guru’s instructions”. Garchen Rinpoche

For those who do virtuous actions,
goodness is what comes to pass.
For those who do non-virtuous actions,
that becomes suffering indeed.

- Arya Sanghata Sutra
muni
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Re: The Great Abortion Debate

Post by muni »

And in order for that to occur, women must have the absolute right to choose for themselves whether it is appropriate to end an unwanted pregnancy.
I appreciate your care, Malcolm. And I agree in the many cases the woman becomes unwanted pregnant.

However there are different circumstances.

I have known a friend who liked so much charming men. She could not get enough of them. 5 times this resulted in pregnancy, 5 times an abortion. She spoke about like she was proud to can solve her problems.

A fellow was making a beautiful bed for his coming child, since his wife was pregnant. He was so happy to become father. But behind his back, his wife asked for an abortion.

There was a women desperate, she wanted to take care of the child in her womb but she could even not take care of herself. There was nobody to help her. Easy to give her the rights to decide for herself.

Therefore no general law or opinion can be the one for all, but depending on the circumstances avoiding as much as possible harm.
And if men can help, they should but at least not harm. Same for women. Respecting all, our nature has no gender.
All appearances are understood as being dharmakaya. We perceive everything in its natural purity, and there is nothing we can call impure.

“Within the sky-like empty mind, habitual tendencies and disturbing emotions are just like clouds and mist. When they appear, they appear within the expanse of empty mind. When they remain, they remain within the expanse of empty mind. And when they dissolve, they dissolve in that same expanse of empty mind.” Guru Rinpoche
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Budai
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Re: The Great Abortion Debate

Post by Budai »

Könchok Thrinley wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 9:12 pm Riddle me this. Those that oppose abortions, what else would you do except for banning them? Do you plan to work with the causes that lead there?
Everything must be done to give everyone the best possible happy and healthy life.
PeterC
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Re: The Great Abortion Debate

Post by PeterC »

muni wrote: Thu May 13, 2021 7:18 am
And in order for that to occur, women must have the absolute right to choose for themselves whether it is appropriate to end an unwanted pregnancy.
I appreciate your care, Malcolm. And I agree in the many cases the woman becomes unwanted pregnant.

However there are different circumstances.

I have known a friend who liked so much charming men. She could not get enough of them. 5 times this resulted in pregnancy, 5 times an abortion. She spoke about like she was proud to can solve her problems.

A fellow was making a beautiful bed for his coming child, since his wife was pregnant. He was so happy to become father. But behind his back, his wife asked for an abortion.

There was a women desperate, she wanted to take care of the child in her womb but she could even not take care of herself. There was nobody to help her. Easy to give her the rights to decide for herself.

Therefore no general law or opinion can be the one for all, but depending on the circumstances avoiding as much as possible harm.
And if men can help, they should but at least not harm. Same for women. Respecting all, our nature has no gender.
Are you saying, in that particular case, that the woman should not have had the right to terminate? That the father should have had the right to force her to carry the baby to term? That a judge or a doctor should have that right?

It is easy to say that we should respect, protect, help, etc. But what does that mean in practice?
muni
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Re: The Great Abortion Debate

Post by muni »

Are you saying, in that particular case, that the woman should not have had the right to terminate? That the father should have had the right to force her to carry the baby to term? That a judge or a doctor should have that right?
No!
Forcing is harming, a doctor or a judge having the right should be dominating the woman, without respecting her welfare and so as well causing harm.
It is easy to say that we should respect, protect, help, etc. But what does that mean in practice?
Depending on each circumstance avoiding harm, by listening, dialogue.
All appearances are understood as being dharmakaya. We perceive everything in its natural purity, and there is nothing we can call impure.

“Within the sky-like empty mind, habitual tendencies and disturbing emotions are just like clouds and mist. When they appear, they appear within the expanse of empty mind. When they remain, they remain within the expanse of empty mind. And when they dissolve, they dissolve in that same expanse of empty mind.” Guru Rinpoche
PeterC
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Re: The Great Abortion Debate

Post by PeterC »

muni wrote: Thu May 13, 2021 7:44 am
Are you saying, in that particular case, that the woman should not have had the right to terminate? That the father should have had the right to force her to carry the baby to term? That a judge or a doctor should have that right?
No!
Forcing is harming, a doctor or a judge having the right should be dominating the woman, without respecting her welfare and so as well causing harm.
It is easy to say that we should respect, protect, help, etc. But what does that mean in practice?
Depending on each circumstance avoiding harm, by listening, dialogue.
That makes sense. But there always needs to be rules for who has what rights in the decision. The right to a dialog is, in most cases, reasonable, but not in all cases. There are going to be situations where it's not right to force a woman to have a dialog with the male contributor before deciding whether to terminate or not.
muni
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Re: The Great Abortion Debate

Post by muni »

There are going to be situations where it's not right to force a woman to have a dialog with the male contributor before deciding whether to terminate or not.
Every force is harm, every neglection is harm. If men cannot help other than by their own opinions, they should shut up.
All appearances are understood as being dharmakaya. We perceive everything in its natural purity, and there is nothing we can call impure.

“Within the sky-like empty mind, habitual tendencies and disturbing emotions are just like clouds and mist. When they appear, they appear within the expanse of empty mind. When they remain, they remain within the expanse of empty mind. And when they dissolve, they dissolve in that same expanse of empty mind.” Guru Rinpoche
PeterC
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Re: The Great Abortion Debate

Post by PeterC »

muni wrote: Thu May 13, 2021 8:02 am
There are going to be situations where it's not right to force a woman to have a dialog with the male contributor before deciding whether to terminate or not.
Every force is harm, every neglection is harm. If men cannot help other than by their own opinions, they should shut up.
I really do agree with your sentiments here. But how many men do you know who will shut up about their own opinions, particularly when it involves their DNA?
muni
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Re: The Great Abortion Debate

Post by muni »

But how many men do you know who will shut up about their own opinions, particularly when it involves their DNA?
That is simple: I do not know many men.

Again I say avoid harm, depending on each circumstance, whatever examples, this is my answer. Harm to the parent, harm to the child, harm to the environment.

But alas, some men are dominating, pushing women against the wall and enjoy their power.
All appearances are understood as being dharmakaya. We perceive everything in its natural purity, and there is nothing we can call impure.

“Within the sky-like empty mind, habitual tendencies and disturbing emotions are just like clouds and mist. When they appear, they appear within the expanse of empty mind. When they remain, they remain within the expanse of empty mind. And when they dissolve, they dissolve in that same expanse of empty mind.” Guru Rinpoche
Giovanni
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Re: The Great Abortion Debate

Post by Giovanni »

muni wrote: Thu May 13, 2021 8:19 am
But how many men do you know who will shut up about their own opinions, particularly when it involves their DNA?
That is simple: I do not know many men.

Again I say avoid harm, depending on each circumstance, whatever examples, this is my answer. Harm to the parent, harm to the child, harm to the environment.

But alas, some men are dominating, pushing women against the wall and enjoy their power.
We cannot avoid harm. This is Samsara. To be born is already harm. What we can do is try to decide on each case by its own merit like HH suggests. No one can this is right for all at all times. Whether abortion, meat eating or self defence. We have to be adult and think. the Buddhas did not decide for us in past times.
Giovanni
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Re: The Great Abortion Debate

Post by Giovanni »

Everytime we walk, eat and breath we harm other beings. This can’t be avoided in Samsara. All we can do is decide to cause least harm. Which may not be the obvious.
The purpose of Dharma is not to improve Samsara, but to not experience it by being born in the realms again.
Malcolm
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Re: The Great Abortion Debate

Post by Malcolm »

In every case you describe, it’s up to the women to decide whether to end a pregnancy or not. Our approval or disapproval is irrelevant, the happiness of the husband is irrelevant, the right of an adult women over her own body is the only important issue her. No one but she should have any say in the matter.

muni wrote: Thu May 13, 2021 7:18 am
And in order for that to occur, women must have the absolute right to choose for themselves whether it is appropriate to end an unwanted pregnancy.
I appreciate your care, Malcolm. And I agree in the many cases the woman becomes unwanted pregnant.

However there are different circumstances.

I have known a friend who liked so much charming men. She could not get enough of them. 5 times this resulted in pregnancy, 5 times an abortion. She spoke about like she was proud to can solve her problems.

A fellow was making a beautiful bed for his coming child, since his wife was pregnant. He was so happy to become father. But behind his back, his wife asked for an abortion.

There was a women desperate, she wanted to take care of the child in her womb but she could even not take care of herself. There was nobody to help her. Easy to give her the rights to decide for herself.

Therefore no general law or opinion can be the one for all, but depending on the circumstances avoiding as much as possible harm.
And if men can help, they should but at least not harm. Same for women. Respecting all, our nature has no gender.
"Conceptuality is great ignorance,
causing one to fall into the ocean of samsāra."
—Māyājālamahātantra
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