The Great Abortion Debate

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tkp67
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Re: The Great Abortion Debate

Post by tkp67 »

illarraza wrote: Sat Apr 24, 2021 4:46 am
tkp67 wrote: Sat Apr 24, 2021 4:24 am What would Shakymani's last existence looked like if his desire for an end of all suffering was limited or had boundaries?
The Buddha speaks directly about abortion in the Great [Mahayana] Dharani Sutra. It is a rather short Sutra and can be read and absorbed in about 45 minutes

Mark
TYVM Mark. Hope all is well.
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Aemilius
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Re: The Great Abortion Debate

Post by Aemilius »

tkp67 wrote: Sun Apr 25, 2021 2:16 pm
Aemilius wrote: Sat Apr 24, 2021 9:04 am Do you mean this sutra:

The Dharani Sutra of the Buddha on Longevity
The Extinction of Offences
And the Protection of Young Children


"My circumstance is such that my family's condition does not allow me to bear any children. That is why I used medicine to murder the foetus, which was fully eight months old. The foetus that I aborted was fully grown with four healthy limbs and was complete with a human form."

"Later I met with a wise man who told me, 'People who have purposely aborted the foetus will be infected with serious illnesses in the present lifespan and receive the retribution of a short lifespan with very little blessing. After they have passed away, they will fall into the Avici Hell to experience terribly acute sufferings'."

"After listen to that, I was very frightened and I deeply regret what I have done. I only hope that the World Honoured One, with your strength of great kindness and compassion, will save me from falling into the deep pit. Please tell me the ways of liberation. Do allow me to leave the home life, so as to not undergo such acute sufferings."

etc...

http://buddhasutra.com/files/dharani_su ... ddha_1.htm

I read this some time ago and questioned authenticity and was unsure how to reconcile this.

The title and body has added verbiage that does not exist in other translations.
I have listened to this sutra and dharani as an mp3 file several times, I think it is this very translation.
svaha
"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 1. (in english and sanskrit)
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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: The Great Abortion Debate

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

Oh well, those things happen.
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tkp67
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Re: The Great Abortion Debate

Post by tkp67 »

Aemilius wrote: Mon Apr 26, 2021 8:54 am
tkp67 wrote: Sun Apr 25, 2021 2:16 pm
Aemilius wrote: Sat Apr 24, 2021 9:04 am Do you mean this sutra:

The Dharani Sutra of the Buddha on Longevity
The Extinction of Offences
And the Protection of Young Children


"My circumstance is such that my family's condition does not allow me to bear any children. That is why I used medicine to murder the foetus, which was fully eight months old. The foetus that I aborted was fully grown with four healthy limbs and was complete with a human form."

"Later I met with a wise man who told me, 'People who have purposely aborted the foetus will be infected with serious illnesses in the present lifespan and receive the retribution of a short lifespan with very little blessing. After they have passed away, they will fall into the Avici Hell to experience terribly acute sufferings'."

"After listen to that, I was very frightened and I deeply regret what I have done. I only hope that the World Honoured One, with your strength of great kindness and compassion, will save me from falling into the deep pit. Please tell me the ways of liberation. Do allow me to leave the home life, so as to not undergo such acute sufferings."

etc...

http://buddhasutra.com/files/dharani_su ... ddha_1.htm

I read this some time ago and questioned authenticity and was unsure how to reconcile this.

The title and body has added verbiage that does not exist in other translations.
I have listened to this sutra and dharani as an mp3 file several times, I think it is this very translation.
I had read the translation on buddha.net IIRC. The I searched for variants and found the Tibetan version which was much shorter. I believe the same meaning can be taken from it and am not making a judgement against it. I just don't know if it can be considered conclusive.
Tenma
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Re: The Great Abortion Debate

Post by Tenma »

tkp67 wrote: Mon Apr 26, 2021 1:48 pm
Aemilius wrote: Mon Apr 26, 2021 8:54 am
tkp67 wrote: Sun Apr 25, 2021 2:16 pm


I read this some time ago and questioned authenticity and was unsure how to reconcile this.

The title and body has added verbiage that does not exist in other translations.
I have listened to this sutra and dharani as an mp3 file several times, I think it is this very translation.
I had read the translation on buddha.net IIRC. The I searched for variants and found the Tibetan version which was much shorter. I believe the same meaning can be taken from it and am not making a judgement against it. I just don't know if it can be considered conclusive.
Could you send over this Tibetan version? Thanks!
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔
Bristollad
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Re: The Great Abortion Debate

Post by Bristollad »

Tenma wrote: Tue May 04, 2021 4:57 am
tkp67 wrote: Mon Apr 26, 2021 1:48 pm
Aemilius wrote: Mon Apr 26, 2021 8:54 am

I have listened to this sutra and dharani as an mp3 file several times, I think it is this very translation.
I had read the translation on buddha.net IIRC. The I searched for variants and found the Tibetan version which was much shorter. I believe the same meaning can be taken from it and am not making a judgement against it. I just don't know if it can be considered conclusive.
Could you send over this Tibetan version? Thanks!
https://read.84000.co/translation/UT22084-051-001.html
Giovanni
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Re: The Great Abortion Debate

Post by Giovanni »

I confess. I have lost my way a little on this thread. Could anyone summarise where the debate has reached? I would be grateful.
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tkp67
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Re: The Great Abortion Debate

Post by tkp67 »

Tenma wrote: Tue May 04, 2021 4:57 am
tkp67 wrote: Mon Apr 26, 2021 1:48 pm
Aemilius wrote: Mon Apr 26, 2021 8:54 am

I have listened to this sutra and dharani as an mp3 file several times, I think it is this very translation.
I had read the translation on buddha.net IIRC. The I searched for variants and found the Tibetan version which was much shorter. I believe the same meaning can be taken from it and am not making a judgement against it. I just don't know if it can be considered conclusive.
Could you send over this Tibetan version? Thanks!
I believe this is the Tibetan equivalent. Perhaps a practitioner from one of the Tibetan traditions can validate as much.

---> https://84000.co/new-publication-the-dh ... nd-wisdom/

The Dhāraṇī “Essence of Immeasurable Longevity and Wisdom”
SilenceMonkey
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Re: The Great Abortion Debate

Post by SilenceMonkey »

I was just reading in "Perfect Conduct" about the root downfall of killing. Dudjom Rinpoche says killing involves killing a human being, which includes an unborn fetus.

I was a bit surprised when I read this, having come from a modern education. I understand the in depth arguments made earlier in this thread, but I thought it was interesting that such a being as Dudjom Rinpoche said this.
Giovanni
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Re: The Great Abortion Debate

Post by Giovanni »

An unborn foetus before the end of the first trimester has no nervous system or independent biology, so how can it be a human being? It is a human being in potential. But not yet.
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tkp67
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Re: The Great Abortion Debate

Post by tkp67 »

Perhaps the latent potential of human life is greater than any delusion manifested by it.
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Re: The Great Abortion Debate

Post by PeterC »

tkp67 wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 1:30 pm Perhaps the latent potential of human life is greater than any delusion manifested by it.
Perhaps when seagulls follow the trawler, it is because they think sardines will be thrown into the sea.

:sage:
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Re: The Great Abortion Debate

Post by SilenceMonkey »

Giovanni wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 10:20 am An unborn foetus before the end of the first trimester has no nervous system or independent biology, so how can it be a human being? It is a human being in potential. But not yet.
Perhaps the consciousness had already entered the fetus and is just waiting to develop. Of course it wouldn't feel pain and it's not a fully developed person.

And perhaps having an abortion even before the first trimester would shut the door to its experience in the human world. If it were to follow Dharma, that would have made it a precious human birth. So maybe it's better for buddhists to not have abortions.
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Nemo
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Re: The Great Abortion Debate

Post by Nemo »

A precious human birth is unlikely to come from an unwanted pregnancy. More likely is a miserable life that accumulates bad karma.

"We estimate that crime fell roughly 20% between 1997 and 2014 due to legalized abortion. The cumulative impact of legalized abortion on crime is roughly 45%, accounting for a very substantial portion of the roughly 50-55% overall decline from the peak of crime in the early 1990s."

https://bfi.uchicago.edu/wp-content/upl ... 201975.pdf
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tkp67
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Re: The Great Abortion Debate

Post by tkp67 »

PeterC wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 3:37 pm
tkp67 wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 1:30 pm Perhaps the latent potential of human life is greater than any delusion manifested by it.
Perhaps when seagulls follow the trawler, it is because they think sardines will be thrown into the sea.

:sage:
The value of precious human birth exists within the teachings of many traditions. I have yet to find any precious birth as a hungry seagull following a trawler teachings.
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Re: The Great Abortion Debate

Post by Giovanni »

SilenceMonkey wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 5:44 pm
Giovanni wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 10:20 am An unborn foetus before the end of the first trimester has no nervous system or independent biology, so how can it be a human being? It is a human being in potential. But not yet.
Perhaps the consciousness had already entered the fetus and is just waiting to develop. Of course it wouldn't feel pain and it's not a fully developed person.

And perhaps having an abortion even before the first trimester would shut the door to its experience in the human world. If it were to follow Dharma, that would have made it a precious human birth. So maybe it's better for buddhists to not have abortions.
Consciousness does not “enter” a foetus. The rupa/form of a foetus arises together with the other skandhas. Rupa is not a container for the other skandhas. They arise together, and as a pre trimester foetus has no functioning nervous system the arising of the skandhas happen in a staged way. And nothing happens without karma vipaka.
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Re: The Great Abortion Debate

Post by SilenceMonkey »

Giovanni wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 7:04 pm
SilenceMonkey wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 5:44 pm
Giovanni wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 10:20 am An unborn foetus before the end of the first trimester has no nervous system or independent biology, so how can it be a human being? It is a human being in potential. But not yet.
Perhaps the consciousness had already entered the fetus and is just waiting to develop. Of course it wouldn't feel pain and it's not a fully developed person.

And perhaps having an abortion even before the first trimester would shut the door to its experience in the human world. If it were to follow Dharma, that would have made it a precious human birth. So maybe it's better for buddhists to not have abortions.
Consciousness does not “enter” a foetus. The rupa/form of a foetus arises together with the other skandhas. Rupa is not a container for the other skandhas. They arise together, and as a pre trimester foetus has no functioning nervous system the arising of the skandhas happen in a staged way. And nothing happens without karma vipaka.
Our consciousness enters the egg in the moment sperm and egg meet (after mom and dad have intercourse). Then the rest of the aggregates develop into a fetus and eventually a fully formed baby.

This is usually taught in teachings on the 12 links. It’s how we are reborn as human beings.
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Re: The Great Abortion Debate

Post by Giovanni »

Perhaps semantics, but nothing “enters” anything. Consciousness arises. It is a function not a “thing”. And it arises to the degree that conditions exist. In the absence of a CNS then consciousness, sparsa, etc can only arise to the degree that conditions for its arising exist. Consciousness is not an atta entering a body. It has causes and conditions. Largely these are karma driven.
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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: The Great Abortion Debate

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

SilenceMonkey wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 7:23 pm
Giovanni wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 7:04 pm
SilenceMonkey wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 5:44 pm

Perhaps the consciousness had already entered the fetus and is just waiting to develop. Of course it wouldn't feel pain and it's not a fully developed person.

And perhaps having an abortion even before the first trimester would shut the door to its experience in the human world. If it were to follow Dharma, that would have made it a precious human birth. So maybe it's better for buddhists to not have abortions.
Consciousness does not “enter” a foetus. The rupa/form of a foetus arises together with the other skandhas. Rupa is not a container for the other skandhas. They arise together, and as a pre trimester foetus has no functioning nervous system the arising of the skandhas happen in a staged way. And nothing happens without karma vipaka.
Our consciousness enters the egg in the moment sperm and egg meet (after mom and dad have intercourse). Then the rest of the aggregates develop into a fetus and eventually a fully formed baby.

This is usually taught in teachings on the 12 links. It’s how we are reborn as human beings.
If consciousness enters the fertilized egg cell, then where does it go when that egg cell naturally dies? Every cell in your body has been replaced every 7 years or so.
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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: The Great Abortion Debate

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

Giovanni wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 7:32 pm Perhaps semantics, but nothing “enters” anything. Consciousness arises. It is a function not a “thing”. And it arises to the degree that conditions exist. In the absence of a CNS then consciousness, sparsa, etc can only arise to the degree that conditions for its arising exist. Consciousness is not an atta entering a body. It has causes and conditions. Largely these are karma driven.
Yes. Very often fertilized eggs don’t survive.
EMPTIFUL.
An inward outlook develops outward insight.
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