mostly Raw organic vegan diet for mental health?

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chokyi lodro
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Re: mostly Raw organic vegan diet for mental health?

Post by chokyi lodro »

Johnny Dangerous wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 4:33 pm
Malcolm wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 2:28 pm
Proper diagnostics must account for causes.
There are all kinds of idiopathic diseases which are defined primarily by symptoms.
Correct. And for many mental health conditions, the cause becomes somewhat irrelevant to both the patient and practitioner. The damage is already done, and - save for cases of counselling to address deep-seated behaviours caused by trauma - it is much more important and practical to address how the patient can safely live with the condition. Theorising about the genesis gives way to management and treatment, and yes, often pharmaceutical means are necessary.

As someone who has suffered poor mental health, I can certainly say that addressing the cause would not help one iota, but that medication, coping mechanisms, a support network, and learning how to live the best life I can live despite it do. None of that has addressed the fathomless question of "why?" because it's unknown to me, my psychiatrist and medical science.

edit: I should say that "learning how to live the best life I can live" would naturally include CBT, if the health service offered it here! :rolling:
~ Chökyi Lodrö
Malcolm
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Re: mostly Raw organic vegan diet for mental health?

Post by Malcolm »

chokyi lodro wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 6:12 pm
Johnny Dangerous wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 4:33 pm
Malcolm wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 2:28 pm
Proper diagnostics must account for causes.
There are all kinds of idiopathic diseases which are defined primarily by symptoms.
Correct. And for many mental health conditions, the cause becomes somewhat irrelevant to both the patient and practitioner.
Yes, this is the Western paradigm, the Hippocratic approach to treating illnesses.

I don't actively practice Tibetan medicine any more, but in Tibetan Medicine and Ayurveda, this view of illness is not favored. If there is an effect, there must be a cause. If the cause is not addressed—and some causes cannot be addressed in the case of karmic illnesses, for example—the effect cannot be removed, just palliated.
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chokyi lodro
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Re: mostly Raw organic vegan diet for mental health?

Post by chokyi lodro »

Malcolm wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 6:30 pm
I don't actively practice Tibetan medicine any more, but in Tibetan Medicine and Ayurveda, this view of illness is not favored. If there is an effect, there must be a cause. If the cause is not addressed—and some causes cannot be addressed in the case of karmic illnesses, for example—the effect cannot be removed, just palliated.
Understood, but my point is that in many instances the cause is simply unknown. The resulting treatment may be palliative as you say (is there a better word? This implies end of life care to me), but it is the best we have. I too advocate a whole system approach; it favours the best outcomes, but like I say cause sometimes has to be left out of the equation in favour of what works in the here and now.
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Malcolm
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Re: mostly Raw organic vegan diet for mental health?

Post by Malcolm »

chokyi lodro wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 6:35 pm
Malcolm wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 6:30 pm
I don't actively practice Tibetan medicine any more, but in Tibetan Medicine and Ayurveda, this view of illness is not favored. If there is an effect, there must be a cause. If the cause is not addressed—and some causes cannot be addressed in the case of karmic illnesses, for example—the effect cannot be removed, just palliated.
Understood, but my point is that in many instances the cause is simply unknown.
I understand that Western Medicine leaves these causes as unknown. That is not the case with Tibetan Medicine and Ayurveda. The cause of all diseases is known. They are the three humors: vata, pitta, and kapha. Those in turn arise from desire, hatred, and confusion. Its a complete different way of looking at illness, including mental illness.
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Johnny Dangerous
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Re: mostly Raw organic vegan diet for mental health?

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

chokyi lodro wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 6:12 pm
Johnny Dangerous wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 4:33 pm
Malcolm wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 2:28 pm
Proper diagnostics must account for causes.
There are all kinds of idiopathic diseases which are defined primarily by symptoms.
Correct. And for many mental health conditions, the cause becomes somewhat irrelevant to both the patient and practitioner. The damage is already done, and - save for cases of counselling to address deep-seated behaviours caused by trauma - it is much more important and practical to address how the patient can safely live with the condition. Theorising about the genesis gives way to management and treatment, and yes, often pharmaceutical means are necessary.

As someone who has suffered poor mental health, I can certainly say that addressing the cause would not help one iota, but that medication, coping mechanisms, a support network, and learning how to live the best life I can live despite it do. None of that has addressed the fathomless question of "why?" because it's unknown to me, my psychiatrist and medical science.

edit: I should say that "learning how to live the best life I can live" would naturally include CBT, if the health service offered it here! :rolling:
Yeah, well one of the things that basic Buddhist psychology can and is offering to the Western paradigm is de-pathologizing mental “illness” somewhat.

Many mental health disorders are clearly just more extreme ends of a spectrum of human experience and treating them as “curable” illnesses rather than simply manageable tendencies is not always a great approach.

One of my main teachers is both a Loppon and Western mental health practitioner, his general attitude seems to be to de pathologize, normalize and to simply teach people to manage the tendencies we refer to as anxiety, depression, ocd, etc. To “step away from the battle” somewhat, to use an Acceptance and Commitment therapy phrase.

Of course things get more complex when we look at more severe conditions like Bipolar I or Sxhizophrenia, but simply not identifying people as diseased or apart from “normal” experience is helpful I think.

I work in the addiction world and I see both the upsides of treating it as a disease, and the significant downsides.

Obviously in Buddhist terms, “why” is not some mysterious thing -in a general sense- because we can always know that aversion, attachment, and ignorance are “why”, regardless of more specific causes.

I think sometimes specifics are good for people to know - for instance understanding how we have reacted to trauma, etc. However, looking for why’s can really turn to navel gazing quickly.
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when afflicted by disease

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared

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Toenail
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Re: mostly Raw organic vegan diet for mental health?

Post by Toenail »

Malcolm wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 6:41 pm
chokyi lodro wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 6:35 pm
Malcolm wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 6:30 pm
I don't actively practice Tibetan medicine any more, but in Tibetan Medicine and Ayurveda, this view of illness is not favored. If there is an effect, there must be a cause. If the cause is not addressed—and some causes cannot be addressed in the case of karmic illnesses, for example—the effect cannot be removed, just palliated.
Understood, but my point is that in many instances the cause is simply unknown.
I understand that Western Medicine leaves these causes as unknown.
That's not really true. I don't understand where you get this from. It is a cliche phrase. Whether psychiatry says "there is some over-activity in this area of the brain" or "some neurotransmitter concentration is not right", it seems to be exactly the same as saying "this person has too much vata". Are you biased? If we include psychology/psychotherapy in western medicine we have vast and rich etiological explanations of mental illnesses. Are these the true causes of mental illnesses? We can only kinda guess from empirical evidence. If we extinguish the causes, how will the symptoms change? We have been doing this in psychotherapy research since 50 years so we have a good idea where most mental illnesses come from.
dharmafootsteps
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Re: mostly Raw organic vegan diet for mental health?

Post by dharmafootsteps »

Toenail wrote: Sat Jan 22, 2022 9:18 am
Malcolm wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 6:41 pm
chokyi lodro wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 6:35 pm

Understood, but my point is that in many instances the cause is simply unknown.
I understand that Western Medicine leaves these causes as unknown.
That's not really true. I don't understand where you get this from. It is a cliche phrase. Whether psychiatry says "there is some over-activity in this area of the brain" or "some neurotransmitter concentration is not right", it seems to be exactly the same as saying "this person has too much vata". Are you biased? If we include psychology/psychotherapy in western medicine we have vast and rich etiological explanations of mental illnesses. Are these the true causes of mental illnesses? We can only kinda guess from empirical evidence. If we extinguish the causes, how will the symptoms change? We have been doing this in psychotherapy research since 50 years so we have a good idea where most mental illnesses come from.
Do you have some citations? I haven’t previously heard the claim that Western medicine has a good idea where most mental illnesses come from. Would like to read more.
Toenail
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Re: mostly Raw organic vegan diet for mental health?

Post by Toenail »

dharmafootsteps wrote: Sat Jan 22, 2022 10:24 am
Toenail wrote: Sat Jan 22, 2022 9:18 am
Malcolm wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 6:41 pm

I understand that Western Medicine leaves these causes as unknown.
That's not really true. I don't understand where you get this from. It is a cliche phrase. Whether psychiatry says "there is some over-activity in this area of the brain" or "some neurotransmitter concentration is not right", it seems to be exactly the same as saying "this person has too much vata". Are you biased? If we include psychology/psychotherapy in western medicine we have vast and rich etiological explanations of mental illnesses. Are these the true causes of mental illnesses? We can only kinda guess from empirical evidence. If we extinguish the causes, how will the symptoms change? We have been doing this in psychotherapy research since 50 years so we have a good idea where most mental illnesses come from.
Do you have some citations? I haven’t previously heard the claim that Western medicine has a good idea where most mental illnesses come from. Would like to read more.
In the case of CBT I can give you many sources and there are also many books about the neurological/biological causes and foundations of mental illnesses. It really goes hand in hand. CBT is a learning theory. There is a very good understanding of how learning happens in the brain. But all my primary sources would be in german. A very good CBT source is Stavemann.

For basic CBT models of mental illnesses check out Beck and Ellis.
dharmafootsteps
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Re: mostly Raw organic vegan diet for mental health?

Post by dharmafootsteps »

Toenail wrote: Sat Jan 22, 2022 11:04 am
dharmafootsteps wrote: Sat Jan 22, 2022 10:24 am
Toenail wrote: Sat Jan 22, 2022 9:18 am

That's not really true. I don't understand where you get this from. It is a cliche phrase. Whether psychiatry says "there is some over-activity in this area of the brain" or "some neurotransmitter concentration is not right", it seems to be exactly the same as saying "this person has too much vata". Are you biased? If we include psychology/psychotherapy in western medicine we have vast and rich etiological explanations of mental illnesses. Are these the true causes of mental illnesses? We can only kinda guess from empirical evidence. If we extinguish the causes, how will the symptoms change? We have been doing this in psychotherapy research since 50 years so we have a good idea where most mental illnesses come from.
Do you have some citations? I haven’t previously heard the claim that Western medicine has a good idea where most mental illnesses come from. Would like to read more.
In the case of CBT I can give you many sources and there are also many books about the neurological/biological causes and foundations of mental illnesses. It really goes hand in hand. CBT is a learning theory. There is a very good understanding of how learning happens in the brain. But all my primary sources would be in german. A very good CBT source is Stavemann.

For basic CBT models of mental illnesses check out Beck and Ellis.
Thanks, I’ll check them out.
Damchö_Dorje
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Re: mostly Raw organic vegan diet for mental health?

Post by Damchö_Dorje »

Ancedotal moment: I have bipolar I disorder and generalized anxiety with some symptoms that are intrusive thought-based not unlike so-called "pure OCD." Delusional grandiose and paranoiac episodes, derealization-depersonalization, executive dysfunction, intrusive thoughts, scrupulosity, etc. For me, it's all about the comorbidity. The first neuroleptic I ever took was Zyprexa, which caused massive distressing increase in intrusive thoughts. I can't take SSRIs for anxiety symptoms because they induce mania (according to research), so I am prescribed the anti-epileptic drug gabapentin off-label. It has enormously increased my quality of life. The only neuroleptics that work for me are the third-gens like Abilify, the ones that modulate dopamine (increasing or decreasing levels through a dimmer-switch effect). For therapy, I do psychodynamic-interpersonal, attachment-based. Just wanted to comment on this given the discussion about anticonvulsant medication in mental disorders and to add a perspective of considerable improvement from medication + therapy, and wanted to bring up comorbidity.

Incidentally, it's all made practice damn unmanageable most of the time, but I'll just have to see how that unfolds as improvements continue!

For diet, I'm mostly lacto-ovo vegetarian and I also go to yoga and do practices with the breath.
Last edited by Damchö_Dorje on Mon Jan 24, 2022 3:27 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Johnny Dangerous
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Re: mostly Raw organic vegan diet for mental health?

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dharmafootsteps wrote: Sat Jan 22, 2022 10:24 am
Toenail wrote: Sat Jan 22, 2022 9:18 am
Malcolm wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 6:41 pm

I understand that Western Medicine leaves these causes as unknown.
That's not really true. I don't understand where you get this from. It is a cliche phrase. Whether psychiatry says "there is some over-activity in this area of the brain" or "some neurotransmitter concentration is not right", it seems to be exactly the same as saying "this person has too much vata". Are you biased? If we include psychology/psychotherapy in western medicine we have vast and rich etiological explanations of mental illnesses. Are these the true causes of mental illnesses? We can only kinda guess from empirical evidence. If we extinguish the causes, how will the symptoms change? We have been doing this in psychotherapy research since 50 years so we have a good idea where most mental illnesses come from.
Do you have some citations? I haven’t previously heard the claim that Western medicine has a good idea where most mental illnesses come from. Would like to read more.
Citations? I mean you can get any current textbook on abnormal psychology and it will discuss suspected causal factors of various mental illness. None of them have a single cause, rather they have various risk factors, genetic predisposition interaction with environment, etc.

From a Western perspective the idea that most mental illnesses could have a single cause is somewhat absurd.

Still biological, social, psychological factors leading to many of these things have been well studied.
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when afflicted by disease

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared

-Khunu Lama
dharmafootsteps
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Re: mostly Raw organic vegan diet for mental health?

Post by dharmafootsteps »

Johnny Dangerous wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 4:51 am
dharmafootsteps wrote: Sat Jan 22, 2022 10:24 am
Toenail wrote: Sat Jan 22, 2022 9:18 am

That's not really true. I don't understand where you get this from. It is a cliche phrase. Whether psychiatry says "there is some over-activity in this area of the brain" or "some neurotransmitter concentration is not right", it seems to be exactly the same as saying "this person has too much vata". Are you biased? If we include psychology/psychotherapy in western medicine we have vast and rich etiological explanations of mental illnesses. Are these the true causes of mental illnesses? We can only kinda guess from empirical evidence. If we extinguish the causes, how will the symptoms change? We have been doing this in psychotherapy research since 50 years so we have a good idea where most mental illnesses come from.
Do you have some citations? I haven’t previously heard the claim that Western medicine has a good idea where most mental illnesses come from. Would like to read more.
Citations? I mean you can get any current textbook on abnormal psychology and it will discuss suspected causal factors of various mental illness. None of them have a single cause, rather they have various risk factors, genetic predisposition interaction with environment, etc.

From a Western perspective the idea that most mental illnesses could have a single cause is somewhat absurd.

Still biological, social, psychological factors leading to many of these things have been well studied.
That's why I asked for citations. I haven't heard a Western medical practitioner suggest that "we have a good idea where most mental illnesses come from". Rather what I've seen are a lot of different theories and hypotheses about suspected casual factors as you mention, some overlapping, some contradictory.
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Re: mostly Raw organic vegan diet for mental health?

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

dharmafootsteps wrote: Thu Jan 27, 2022 11:25 am
Johnny Dangerous wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 4:51 am
dharmafootsteps wrote: Sat Jan 22, 2022 10:24 am

Do you have some citations? I haven’t previously heard the claim that Western medicine has a good idea where most mental illnesses come from. Would like to read more.
Citations? I mean you can get any current textbook on abnormal psychology and it will discuss suspected causal factors of various mental illness. None of them have a single cause, rather they have various risk factors, genetic predisposition interaction with environment, etc.

From a Western perspective the idea that most mental illnesses could have a single cause is somewhat absurd.

Still biological, social, psychological factors leading to many of these things have been well studied.
That's why I asked for citations. I haven't heard a Western medical practitioner suggest that "we have a good idea where most mental illnesses come from". Rather what I've seen are a lot of different theories and hypotheses about suspected casual factors as you mention, some overlapping, some contradictory.
Hmm, well for plenty of mental illnesses there is a good general idea of how they come about, but there are competing theories, factors are not completely understood etc.
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when afflicted by disease

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared

-Khunu Lama
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